If Religious Teachings On Hell Are True, God Is A Failure

a reply to: TheJourney

What do you think about when you think of the Universe being created?

And then what do you think about the Universe right now?

originally posted by: TheJourney
Does God not know all points in space and time? Because if so, some of your posts saying something to the effect of 'It's us making the mistakes, not God. It's not his fault we fail.' Well, disregarding that these 'mistakes' are not believing the right thing, which all of these belief systems are unprovable. But beyond that, to the main point I'm trying to make. So, when God created the world, he was already aware of everything that would happen. What would happen, if traditional religious dogma is to be believed, is that the vast majority of humans would go to hell for eternal and infinite torment. Which would either make creation a failure, or God a sadist, as previously suggested...

...specifically in the credo being referred to in the OP...but, if the title of the OP is to be taken at face value - there is no specific 'religious teachings' being referenced but one...myopia is where the silly conclusions are coming from...

A99

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: TheJourney
Does God not know all points in space and time? Because if so, some of your posts saying something to the effect of 'It's us making the mistakes, not God. It's not his fault we fail.' Well, disregarding that these 'mistakes' are not believing the right thing, which all of these belief systems are unprovable. But beyond that, to the main point I'm trying to make. So, when God created the world, he was already aware of everything that would happen. What would happen, if traditional religious dogma is to be believed, is that the vast majority of humans would go to hell for eternal and infinite torment. Which would either make creation a failure, or God a sadist, as previously suggested...

...specifically in the credo being referred to in the OP...but, if the title of the OP is to be taken at face value - there is no specific 'religious teachings' being referenced but one...myopia is where the silly conclusions are coming from...

A99

Really? Only one religion teaches you go to hell if you don't follow the religion?

This is blatantly false, so...

a reply to: TheJourney

Not all religions do.

Which of these do you not include?

A99

originally posted by: akushla99
a reply to: TheJourney

Not all religions do.

Which of these do you not include?

A99

I never said ALL religions do...I love Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, for example...and esoteric interpretation of western religions...

Clearly the religious teachings I'm referring to are the ones that teach what I'm talking about.

a reply to: TheJourney

I understand. (Apologies if you were offended)
...but 'they' are hardly the kind of credos that you could sufficiently trust to have interpreted correctly the cosmology of this system...all the credos you mentioned dovetail beautifully with the mangled truth...of some...

A99

I think you are wrong
God is not the failure, God created us with a free will and an inquisitive mind.
If we choose not to use both those gifts and listen to the heard (Yes I think non believers are the heard)
then it proves, those who dont choose God are the failures.

Its all about perspectives

originally posted by: TheJourney
I originally had this thought a number of years ago. But the thought popped up in my head during a conversation earlier today. If over half of the population goes to hell, God failed. His creating the world caused a greater amount of suffering than it did joy. So, in that case, God failed. He shouldn't have created the world. He messed up, big time. No matter WHAT religious belief is true, well under half of the population believes it. And if the doctrine is that non-believers go to hell, well over half of the population will go to hell. Thus, God failed.

Namaste, friend. I wrote a similar response about Hell today here: Hell is a creation of the Mind.

As the above post talks about, Hell is not a literal place "created by God." It is a place created by your own mind and heart. Allow me to elaborate further. When you walk down the sidewalk and you see a tree in front of you, the tree may seem like it's there before your eyes. That's what most people would perceive. However, the Truth to the matter is it's a tree that is inside of you. You ask, "huh, what?" Before we continue, you should realize that ALL things in this "reality" that you know is not what it seems. It is an illusion or a series of images created by your own mind. The Universe is around you because it is the projection of the Universal Mind--The Mind of God. The Uni-Verse is ONE. This means that your Mind is God's Mind. Understand? Your Heart IS the Kingdom of Heaven. There is where God is. Your Mind works with your Heart to project the images onto the Screen in Front of your Eyes.

I don't expect you to understand what I just said right away. But that is a glimpse of how the Universe works. "As Above, So Below. As Within, So Without." Therefore, when your mind is depressed and full of hatred, disgust, strife, and jealousy, that image will project unto your own personal life, as well as life after death. This is why when some people die, they see Hell. Remember that this Hell is only a projection of your mind. You can let go of it in an instance by remembering God and realizing that you are magnificent and wonderful, for you are God.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: TzarChasm


Unless free will is God's little inside joke, it's not "murder" to voluntarily take ones own life. Murder is the act of killing someone else.

The concept of free will is absurd. No one is free to do anything they want to do. It's physically impossible. Moreover, if one actually believes that God exists and is all-powerful, all-knowing, and created everything (as the Bible claims), free will for God's creations is also impossible. God, being all-knowing, would have known exactly what his creations would do before he created them and, being all-powerful, created them to do exactly that.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TheJourney

So, you think it's unfair for God to set rules for His creation?

First, there'd have to be a God and, secondly, there'd have to be a creation. There's no testable evidence of either. Therefore, the question is moot.

This has been stated multiple times on this thread and deserves an answer from a believer… if god is all knowing and timeless, then how can free-will be part of the equation? God already knows the outcome of his creation before it even happens, so there is no free wheel. Every script is pre-written (not free will). Again, this would lead one to believe that god is either extremely cruel, or a very poor designer (seeing the faults in his design before they happen and going ahead with it anyway).

But the main thing that needs to be addressed is the whole concept of "going-ahead", since the Christian claim is that god exists outside of time.

It should be obvious to anyone reading the biblical works that god has a rather serious wash of emotions (big surprise for a god created in man's image). Emotions are the mark of someone not all-knowing. You have an emotional reaction to concepts or happenings that present themselves to you (or at times when they become forefront in your mind). Strongest when first ingested (or admitted) but eventually your reaction to them dwindles with time (not always but in general). If you always knew these concepts and existed timelessly they couldn't come in and out of thought. Fluctuation requires time, so your emotions would be minimal and constant at best, especially as god who knew them before they happened (as if god would be surprised by what he knew people would do and then still get mad?? Seriously?? Real wizard at work there.).

And if god is timeless than the emotions exhibited by god in the old testament are just as strong and real now as they were then, since god lives outside of time. Time is not present for god, so his emotions wouldn't fade. Or is he just bummed from the outset (and continually) at what a poor attempt was made on his part?

a reply to: okrian

Anthropomorphised emotions cannot be the hallmark of a Supreme or Almighty God...neither, the implication that an adversary be possible. The 'emotional and angry' god is definitely NOT the big cheese.

A99

a reply to: Tangerine

The concept of free will is absurd.

The concept that someone doesn't have the right to stop living, or to end their own life is absurd.

a reply to: TheJourney

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17:21

If The Kingdom of God is within you, then all you need to do is connect to it.

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." - 1 John 4:8

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" - 1 Corinthians 3:16

It is not God's fault if people do not want to connect within.

a reply to: akushla99

I personally am not ascribing human emotion to the christian god. These emotions displayed by god are described in detail (and in the most human-like way) and used in the same way that an incredibly reactionary person might have them. I didn't say they were the 'hallmark' of god (or a god).

You seem to be sidestepping what I asked, but maybe you didn't intend to answer what I was asking anyway... which of course, you are under no responsibility to answer.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Tangerine

The concept of free will is absurd.

The concept that someone doesn't have the right to stop living, or to end their own life is absurd.

I agree but that doesn't mean that people have free will. Free will implies that we can make a choice to do anything and, obviously, we can't. Our choices are limited by all sorts of things.

a reply to: Tangerine

I don't agree that limitations are evidence of NO free will. A few decades ago mankind had the will, but no the means, to fly. Mankind found a way.

Perhaps its true that if it can be imagined and desired, it can be attained.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Tangerine

I don't agree that limitations are evidence of NO free will. A few decades ago mankind had the will, but no the means, to fly. Mankind found a way.

Perhaps its true that if it can be imagined and desired, it can be attained.

If you're in the middle of the ocean drowning with no rescue possible and wish to not drown, where is your free will? The lack of means or options to do that which you want to do makes the term "free will" meaningless.

a reply to: Tangerine

Free will and instant gratification are two different things. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

By the way, I'm a reincarnationist who doesn't believe in a deity or supreme being that is "GOD".

a reply to: okrian

No beef

...but I have answered the Free Will 'question'...and have also said that using the literature describing the christian god in a 'closed-loop type fashion' will never answer that 'question' simply because it references itself using the mechanism of Free Will to 'create' said circumstances and locales - OP then draws from this that God is a failure...and I would have to agree with that LINE, except christianity does not hold the exclusive rights to universal cosmology...so, that LINE, and its conclusion, is wrong when removed from its comfortable but precarious ivory tower...Hells, as locales, are real...by dent of the creative process actioned by thousands of years of thought-form that keeps them in place, by individuals who are misunderstanding the concept of creative thought through Free Will to think/imagine/concretise...other cosmologies describe this process in more poetic terms...'christian teachings on hell' are true - in the sense that, these locales exist (but, for the reasons I have described) because of freedom of thought - the process is dependant on those using it, not the one(s) who placed it in a system where it fits by retrograde...you may be missing the answer by placing too much credence on one faulty rehash...and a proper discussion of it falls into ridiculousness when blinded in one eye by erroneous written material...Almighty should be an exacting word, and in this light - whether christian, buddhist - whatever Almightiness...there is no mistake/failure...a credo that pits an adversary (that can somehow attain the upper hand) against Almightiness does not believe in Almightiness at all

A99