I thank God for hell

a reply to: borntowatch

Romans 3:25(NIV)

25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Matthew 26:28 ESV
For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:22 - And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


Then we present ourselves a living sacrifice.

There are two parts to salvation, Christ in Gods work and then we are to live as subjects to our Lord, doing His will.

In Romans 3:25, where the English translation says, "a sacrifice of atonement", that is all the translator's interpretation of a single word in the Greek, hilastērion, which is the word used in the Septuagint for the Mercy Seat, the gold covering of the Ark of the Covenant, where God would preside over the judgment of Israel.

Paul was saying that the pagan gentiles were not punished by God for not following the Book of Moses, since He had another plan in mind, which was the judgment by Jesus of Faith, so he is posing this contrasting imagery with Jesus being presented by God to the people of Earth as the substitutionary thing for the object of worship under the old covenant.

In Matthew 26:28 Jesus was talking about the communion cup of wine, figuratively representing his death, that he suffered voluntarily for the sake of others.
That same love that Jesus had for us is to be put to use to love other Christians, and thus cover a multitude of sins in that transformed life of obedience to Jesus.

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
(2011 NIV)

In Hebrews 9:22 the writer is making an analogy between Jesus' death, and the actions of the priests in the temple according to the Book of Moses.
The metaphorical "new covenant" is in this analogy made holy through this idea of Jesus bleeding in the process of his crucifixion.

Jesus was the Lamb of God, the living sacrifice. The bible is very clear about that

Jesus was killed, which was a personal sacrifice for Jesus.
God gave his son to be killed, which was a personal sacrifice for God.
But I don't see how the Bible says that Jesus was a "living" sacrifice.
That is what we are supposed to be, something to be presented to God in our righteousness.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: borntowatch

Your image of gods justice. Not the image as revealed in Jesus.

Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. Not counting their trespasses against them.

Your image of justice is of the religious fallen mind. God does not torture. He does not consign the majority of his children to torture.

That is the confusion I spoke of. And fear displaced by you and your group making it "in" compare to those who are out and didn't make the cut.

I mean no offense saying these things. But the religion of Christianity has distorted the gospel and replaced refining in the love of A caring father with torture as punishment for sins of the flesh. That we were born into.

The doctrine of eternal torture is a fear tactic. Turn or burn. Read about the doctrine of reserve by the medieval church. They taught eternal torture aka hell to the masses to keep them in check but kept in reserve the true light of the salvation of all for the elite.

Peace and blessings to you

Maybe you should go read a few parable's and see what happens to the weeds.

As for eternal torture, that was your words.

I dont know what hell will be, I know that there will come a time when

“First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: borntowatch

Your image of gods justice. Not the image as revealed in Jesus.

Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. Not counting their trespasses against them.

Your image of justice is of the religious fallen mind. God does not torture. He does not consign the majority of his children to torture.

That is the confusion I spoke of. And fear displaced by you and your group making it "in" compare to those who are out and didn't make the cut.

I mean no offense saying these things. But the religion of Christianity has distorted the gospel and replaced refining in the love of A caring father with torture as punishment for sins of the flesh. That we were born into.

The doctrine of eternal torture is a fear tactic. Turn or burn. Read about the doctrine of reserve by the medieval church. They taught eternal torture aka hell to the masses to keep them in check but kept in reserve the true light of the salvation of all for the elite.

Peace and blessings to you

Maybe you should go read a few parable's and see what happens to the weeds.

As for eternal torture, that was your words.

I dont know what hell will be, I know that there will come a time when

“First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

so you dont even know what your so thankful for? im sure you have some idea of what hell is supposed to be like, dont even play coy.

a reply to: Akragon

I'm glad we see eye to eye

originally posted by: TzarChasm


so you dont even know what your so thankful for? im sure you have some idea of what hell is supposed to be like, dont even play coy.

Thats not entirely accurate, I am thankful for Gods fair justice.
You and many others have an issue with what is fair according to what you understand, and understand what the bible
says about hell.
I am sure God is just and the punishment of hell will be justified, not nice.

Do I have a different opinion about hell than say the Catholics? Yes, what I believe is slightly different.

a reply to: borntowatch

"I believe God does love all humanity..."

I am more concerned with the love that you have for humanity.

We share this world, and my focus is the here and now.


By the way, I appreciate your patience.

originally posted by: Diderot
a reply to: borntowatch

"I believe God does love all humanity..."

I am more concerned with the love that you have for humanity.

We share this world, and my focus is the here and now.


By the way, I appreciate your patience.

I believe if your focus was for the here and now your heart would be torn in to shreds by the injustice of this world. Your Spirit would be crying for justice.

I can only hope of a time when the lion will lay with the lamb and sin will be destroyed.

I thank God He has a plan

a reply to: borntowatch

How can you possible justify "God" having "fair justice"? He's there to cure us when we are sick, and to send people to "heaven" or a "better place" when they die unexpectedly, but he's nowhere to be found while children are starving and innocent people are dying and being killed? You can't have one and not the other...If you tell me "God" is good you ALSO have to say "God" is evil and loves killing the products of "His" creation...So if a child is born to a family with no belief system and the child is abused and starved to death, "God's" fair justice comes into play allowing the child to die and be sent to a "better place"? It's insane to have this standard of thought and not feel guilty for thinking it. This is exactly why I'm an Atheist. There is absolutely no real evidence or single good reason why I should believe a super powerful "creator" allows innocent people to suffer who don't deserve to.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: TzarChasm


so you dont even know what your so thankful for? im sure you have some idea of what hell is supposed to be like, dont even play coy.

Thats not entirely accurate, I am thankful for Gods fair justice.
You and many others have an issue with what is fair according to what you understand, and understand what the bible
says about hell.
I am sure God is just and the punishment of hell will be justified, not nice.

Do I have a different opinion about hell than say the Catholics? Yes, what I believe is slightly different.

Based on all the stuff I've read and heard about hell, whoever made it is not a nice person at all. And no person who is synonymous with unconditional love and limitless compassion would ever have anything to do with such a vile creation. And anyone who admires the lake of fire is seriously twisted.

a reply to: borntowatch

"I believe if your focus was for the here and now your heart would be torn in to shreds by the injustice of this world. Your Spirit would be crying for justice.
I can only hope of a time when the lion will lay with the lamb and sin will be destroyed.
I thank God He has a plan."

With all the horrific pain and suffering and death and tribulation and hatred,
our purpose is made that much clearer.
We shall honor a God that is perfect in wisdom, grace, and compassion.
You and I should strive to enrich our world with more joy and happiness
for all of God's creatures.

That to me is the plan of a perfect God.

a reply to: Diderot

I'm reminded of the isalnd of misfit toys. I dont think I agree with the concept of purging a world of its imperfections, as though reducing life to uniformity will solve its problems. Seems almost like a Spartan way of doing business. If there is no room for mistakes, then there is no room for livong. And charging forgiveness at a lifetime of servitude per head is just a douche move. Why not be a loan shark and aperfectionist rolled into one? Good grief.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Hello again TzarCosmic,

"I'm reminded of the isalnd of misfit toys. I dont think I agree with the concept of purging a world of its imperfections, as though reducing life to uniformity will solve its problems. Seems almost like a Spartan way of doing business. If there is no room for mistakes, then there is no room for livong. And charging forgiveness at a lifetime of servitude per head is just a douche move. Why not be a loan shark and aperfectionist rolled into one? Good grief."

Some posts are off the wall, but your are off the ceiling.

But to nit pick, a purge of imperfection should not result in uniformity, and besides; if the uniformity is universal joy and happiness, then what is the down side?

Also, rest assured that I have never advocated for a douche move (except perhaps in a women's health spa.)

Finally, I am trying to imagine a perfectionist loan shark, but my brain is saying

"Does not compute!, Does not compute!"

originally posted by: InfinityandBeyond
a reply to: borntowatch

How can you possible justify "God" having "fair justice"? He's there to cure us when we are sick, and to send people to "heaven" or a "better place" when they die unexpectedly, but he's nowhere to be found while children are starving and innocent people are dying and being killed? You can't have one and not the other...If you tell me "God" is good you ALSO have to say "God" is evil and loves killing the products of "His" creation...So if a child is born to a family with no belief system and the child is abused and starved to death, "God's" fair justice comes into play allowing the child to die and be sent to a "better place"? It's insane to have this standard of thought and not feel guilty for thinking it. This is exactly why I'm an Atheist. There is absolutely no real evidence or single good reason why I should believe a super powerful "creator" allows innocent people to suffer who don't deserve to.

Sorry you are preaching Calvanism, I am not a Calvanist.

The world is broken and we need a God to step in and fix it. We need Gods justice here and now to stop the things you are complaining about.
You have a distorted view of what Christianity teaches.
God loves us but allows us a free will, a will to do evil as well as good.

See we are not that different, I, like you, hate the injustice of this world because of the evil, we both want it to stop. The difference is I believe it wont stop till Christ returns.

If God was in charge we would be living with Him and His justice would be done.

Hence the Lords prayer,

"Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Based on all the stuff I've read and heard about hell, whoever made it is not a nice person at all. And no person who is synonymous with unconditional love and limitless compassion would ever have anything to do with such a vile creation. And anyone who admires the lake of fire is seriously twisted.

Hell is not a creation as such, from my understanding its a place where God is not.
A place where Gods Kingdom does not encroach, its apart from God.
Hell is just a place God glory is not manifested.

How many people here choose not to have God in their lives, they will get that wish granted.
Hell is a place for people who dont let God be the Lord of their lives, I am sure many many people who call themselves Christians, accept Gods salvation are doomed for hell.

Now understand that I am thanking God for His justice and if hell is part of His plan, then I thank God for His plan.

The whole thread is confronting I understand, but what, should I deny Gods justice, would it be better I denied hell, better I hated God for hell.

Many Christians want to tuck hell under the bed and deny it, it needs to be accepted as Gods plan, like it or not.

a reply to: borntowatch

Greetings and Namaste. First of all, Hell is not a literal place that you go to. It's personal, meaning when you die, your mind creates a personal Hell that relates directly to your own consciousness at the time of death. For example, if you were very depressed about life and hatred fills your heart, then all you will see is darkness after death. This darkness are lived there by other people like yourself, as well as demonic entities. This is the lower part of the 4th Dimension. It is not as simple as you believe. Other places you can end up is lost in Limbo, a place between 3rd and 4th Dimension. But it is still your mind that you brought you there.

Another example would be if you love drinking alcohol, then you may see a bar right after death. You will enter it with people drinking and being merry. You think, "Wow, if this is Heaven, it is glorious." But when you are done drinking, you step out of the bar, there is emptiness. There is absolutely nothing before you but darkness. All you can do is stay in the bar forever? No, it is not forever (nor is Hell). Just until the lesson is learned.

But no matter what your mind is like, there is ALWAYS Light that appears before every person who just died. The reason people don't go to the Light is due to their disbelief of God and fear--fear of what it is and what is to come if you enter the Light.

There is NO judgement from God. God is not up there waiting for you to do something wrong to smite you. I have said this in the past, but doesn't hurt to reiterate. God is Within you. God is unconditional Love. With this kind of Love, there is no judgement. As you live in the physical world, you are going to create "good and bad" things because that is how this physical world was created. It is only life lessons. Therefore, don't even judge yourself nor others. And once you know how to balance and master Good and Bad, you will know how to return to God as ONE. Although, you have never been separated. It is only an illusion when you feel separated from God, just another part of the Game of Life.

a reply to: borntowatch

The whole thread is confronting I understand, but what, should I deny Gods justice, would it be better I denied hell, better I hated God for hell.

as i said before, you may as well thank hitler for auschwitz.

a reply to: borntowatch

See we are not that different, I, like you, hate the injustice of this world because of the evil, we both want it to stop. The difference is I believe it wont stop till Christ returns.

If God was in charge we would be living with Him and His justice would be done. and His justice would be done.

Who would be "living with Him"?
Do you think that most people will be just dead at that point, when God is living here?
Or are you saying that "we", meaning a certain part of humanity will go to where God is already?
Do you believe that God can only be "in charge" where He is living?

I think that God is in charge now as much as He will ever be
It is just the battle going on inside people's minds right now that makes it seem as if God is not ruling.

I think your solution is to remove those persons out of sight, then just looking at the people who are in compliance, then pretending that something changed.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: borntowatch

The whole thread is confronting I understand, but what, should I deny Gods justice, would it be better I denied hell, better I hated God for hell.

as i said before, you may as well thank hitler for auschwitz.

No, that is a strawman argument, you are suggesting what Hitler did was fair.
I dont see it as fair, I have read Hitler exterminated people because of their ethnicity.
(If Satan destroyed all the Jews, Satan wins)
God wont judge people based on where they were born

originally posted by: jmdewey60
Who would be "living with Him"?
Do you think that most people will be just dead at that point, when God is living here?
Or are you saying that "we", meaning a certain part of humanity will go to where God is already?
Do you believe that God can only be "in charge" where He is living?

I think that God is in charge now as much as He will ever be
It is just the battle going on inside people's minds right now that makes it seem as if God is not ruling.

I think your solution is to remove those persons out of sight, then just looking at the people who are in compliance, then pretending that something changed.

As I understand it
Jesus has gone to prepare a place for those who serve Him, Jesus is talking to those who call Him Lord and Saviour, not everyone on earth.

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself"

What I think is really unimportant, I think there is a place called hell and those outside of Christ (many Christians as well), will be sent away from Gods presence.

I dont think God can be in charge on earth, after 40 days of living in the desert, satan tempted Jesus. One of the temptations was offering Jesus all He could see.
"Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

How could satan offer God what was already His?
God has given us His word to help teach us how we should act, if life was pre planned that would be silly.


and finally, its not my solution,its a solution I accept because I believe God is just

originally posted by: ctophil
a reply to: borntowatch

Greetings and Namaste. First of all, Hell is not a literal place that you go to. It's personal, meaning when you die, your mind creates a personal Hell that relates directly to your own consciousness at the time of death. For example, if you were very depressed about life and hatred fills your heart, then all you will see is darkness after death. This darkness are lived there by other people like yourself, as well as demonic entities. This is the lower part of the 4th Dimension. It is not as simple as you believe. Other places you can end up is lost in Limbo, a place between 3rd and 4th Dimension. But it is still your mind that you brought you there.

Another example would be if you love drinking alcohol, then you may see a bar right after death. You will enter it with people drinking and being merry. You think, "Wow, if this is Heaven, it is glorious." But when you are done drinking, you step out of the bar, there is emptiness. There is absolutely nothing before you but darkness. All you can do is stay in the bar forever? No, it is not forever (nor is Hell). Just until the lesson is learned.

But no matter what your mind is like, there is ALWAYS Light that appears before every person who just died. The reason people don't go to the Light is due to their disbelief of God and fear--fear of what it is and what is to come if you enter the Light.

There is NO judgement from God. God is not up there waiting for you to do something wrong to smite you. I have said this in the past, but doesn't hurt to reiterate. God is Within you. God is unconditional Love. With this kind of Love, there is no judgement. As you live in the physical world, you are going to create "good and bad" things because that is how this physical world was created. It is only life lessons. Therefore, don't even judge yourself nor others. And once you know how to balance and master Good and Bad, you will know how to return to God as ONE. Although, you have never been separated. It is only an illusion when you feel separated from God, just another part of the Game of Life.

Well lucky me then

Greetings and namsate to you as well

So I am guessing Hinduism, you havnt asked me to empty my mind of everything and meditate on nothing, so I think thats different and Buddhism. Thats not a statement, its a question.

I dont mind Hindus or Buddhists to much, they are for the most, gentle.
I have grave issues of the Caste system and treating people below the standard of dogs because of what caste they were born into.

Hinduism as I understand teaches that we are all part of god, thats an interesting concept.
My issue is justice, my God is a God of Justice, your god is a breeze, a mistral, travelling anywhere and everywhere, directionless. My God has a purpose and plan for humanity, yours has nothing to offer but a mouse wheel existence.
Life then death, learning, life then death, learning, life then death. If your life was poor, you are born into a worse life, that you deserve. Endless, no escape.

No you are welcome to believe what you choose, but our gods are not the same. Mine is a single God, apart from me, who will judge the living and the dead for their actions on this planet.
There will be rewards and punishments

Namaste.