CFR: Ukraine Crisis, It's the Wests Fault

Since the Council on Foreign Relations did not, as a body, claim that "the Ukraine Crisis is the West's fault," I submit that this whole thread be moved to [HOAX!]

a reply to: DJW001

Since the Council on Foreign Relations did not, as a body, claim that "the Ukraine Crisis is the West's fault," I submit that this whole thread be moved to [HOAX!]

Since the Council on Foreign Relations published the article on their Foreign Affairs web site I submit that your suggestion be disregarded.

a reply to: Bassago
The only people in denial are the ones desperately clinging to the propaganda that Russia did not invade Ukraine.

Armed Russian soldiers entered Ukraine via Crimea. Those soldiers wore no insignias. Those soldiers failed to stay at their base and instead spread out over the countryside, securing government buildings, police stations, and Ukraine military bases.

ALL done prior to the illegal referendum held.

AKA an armed invasion of Ukraine by forces from the Russian Federation.

So the NAVAL port has nothing to do with the situation...RIGHT.
CFR is a CABAL mouth piece (Their main ONE too)and a tool of the banks,they want control OVER the US now. It's bull.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Bassago
The only people in denial are the ones desperately clinging to the propaganda that Russia did not invade Ukraine.

Armed Russian soldiers entered Ukraine via Crimea. Those soldiers wore no insignias. Those soldiers failed to stay at their base and instead spread out over the countryside, securing government buildings, police stations, and Ukraine military bases.

ALL done prior to the illegal referendum held.

AKA an armed invasion of Ukraine by forces from the Russian Federation.

What does any of that have to do with the thread topic. All of those alleged actions occurred after Western interference and (assisted) overthrow of the previous head of state. You know the west could have just waited a couple of months for the election a it's possible none of this would have happened. Guess greed and ambition was too much for them... again.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: DJW001

Since the Council on Foreign Relations did not, as a body, claim that "the Ukraine Crisis is the West's fault," I submit that this whole thread be moved to [HOAX!]

Since the Council on Foreign Relations published the article on their Foreign Affairs web site I submit that your suggestion be disregarded.

That's just it.. The CFR did not arrive at that conclusion. An op ed opinion piece did. It falls into the category of the following does not represent the views of.....

The title is misleading.. Just like stating Russia never invaded Ukraine is in fact misleading and incorrect.

Even the former President of Ukraine, Yanukovych, stated Crimea belongs to Ukraine and not Russia. Come to think of it his comments on that topic seemed to be the last time he was allowed to talk to the media.

Go figure.

a reply to: Bassago

Nice try...

It has everything to do with the thread title. The title is based on the premise that what's occurring in Ukraine is the wests fault, when in reality its Russia fault. How is it Russia's?

They invaded Ukraine and illegally occupied and annexed Crimea.

Since Russia did that all on their own, in addition to funding and sending in Russian military support to the Moscow incited rebellion in the South and East of Ukraine, it further reinforces what we are seeing is Russia's fault.

Thank you for demonstrating how Russian media works. When inconvenient information is shown that doesn't support the agenda you want, you do all you can to stop it, by either attacking the source or failing miserably to try and disassociate the info from the agenda.

This is Russia's fault and no one else's and no amount of spin is going to convince me or others its not.

Its Russians supporting the Russian led rebellion.
Its Russian weapons being supplied to the Russian rebels.
Its Russian heavy military equipment being supplied to the Russian led rebels.
Its Russian training to the Russian led rebels.
Its Russian equipment operated by Russian rebels that brought down MH 17.
Its Russian arrogance and a preconceived notion that they are somehow superior to non Russians (it didn't work out for the Nazis but apparently Putin stopped with history and the cold war).

This mess is Russia's fault from beginning to end.

That's not just my opinion, its the view of the bulk of the countries on this planet, not to mention international organizations, and its supported by facts you and others ignore.

a reply to: Xcathdra

The CFR did not arrive at that conclusion. An op ed opinion piece did. It falls into the category of the following does not represent the views of.....

This "op-ed opinion" appears to be getting a lot of press. I'd think if it did not have any support it would be taken down. Everything I read it in appears to be substantiated and has been discussed in quite a few ATS threads. I know you disagree, that's life.

Yanukovych, stated Crimea belongs to Ukraine and not Russia.

As I said before not anymore and I doubt it's ever coming back. US/EU/IMF/NATO should have left well enough alone and Crimea might still be there. And shortly they may lose the entire eastern part of the country.

While I have no doubt the NeoCons in the US would like a world war with Russia I doubt the EU is looking forward to it. (Note: that part is just my opinion.)

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
So the NAVAL port has nothing to do with the situation...RIGHT.
CFR is a CABAL mouth piece (Their main ONE too)and a tool of the banks,they want control OVER the US now. It's bull.

Putin lied when he clearly states the reason for invading Ukraine and annexing Crimea is because of Ukraine joining NATO and that he could not stand the fact that NATO vessels would be stationed in "Russia's back yard" (which I guess means the US can use the same bs to annex Cuba and some south American nations warming up to Russia since its in our "near abroad" and a threat to our national security by having Russian military units that close).

Its a long read and he lies and contradicts himself when compared to other statements made. For some reason the Russian government is just as weak willed and stupid as the American Congress since no one called him out on those lies.

Putin has given about 15 different lies as to why he did and did not invade Ukraine/crimea.


RT News - President Putin's address to Parliament over Crimea

Let me note too that we have already heard declarations from Kiev about Ukraine soon joining NATO. What would this have meant for Crimea and Sevastopol in the future? It would have meant that NATO’s navy would be right there in this city of Russia’s military glory, and this would create not an illusory but a perfectly real threat to the whole of southern Russia. These are things that could have become reality were it not for the choice the Crimean people made, and I want to say thank you to them for this.

How do we know Putin is a liar? We can look at the Baltic states and Poland. Both areas joined NATO but none of those countries host NATO installations or NATO military units. Since Putin invaded Ukraine that has since changed.


But let me say too that we are not opposed to cooperation with NATO, for this is certainly not the case. For all the internal processes within the organisation, NATO remains a military alliance, and we are against having a military alliance making itself at home right in our backyard or in our historic territory. I simply cannot imagine that we would travel to Sevastopol to visit NATO sailors. Of course, most of them are wonderful guys, but it would be better to have them come and visit us, be our guests, rather than the other way round.

Sovereign nations are not Russian territory. By making this statements he has announced that the sovereign countries are in fact not sovereign but Russian territory.

Another reason why countries are approaching the west and NATO to join.

Russia, Specifically the jack ass Putin, is responsible for this mess. I just wish you guys would look past the ideology and do your own research instead of toting what Putin states, lies unchecked.

a reply to: Bassago

Sure it will get press.. Just as it drew attention on this site. The only difference is those arguments on how the article misses major key points and completely ignores others will be discredited on tv instead of us discrediting it in these threads.

People will come to the right conclusion in the end, in that the article is inaccurate and ignores the basic elements that Russia action was the catalyst for this mess and not the west.

originally posted by: Bassago

As I said before not anymore and I doubt it's ever coming back. US/EU/IMF/NATO should have left well enough alone and Crimea might still be there. And shortly they may lose the entire eastern part of the country.

While I have no doubt the NeoCons in the US would like a world war with Russia I doubt the EU is looking forward to it. (Note: that part is just my opinion.)

And this would be where your argument fails.

You are assuming there wont be a response from Europe. Since Russia would need to go through the former East European countries, I doubt those eastern European countries are going to allow another 50+ years of Russian occupation.

Giving into Russia on Crimea is the equivalent of giving into Hitler over the Sudetenland. Its only the beginning and based on what I have seen of Putin to date, he is nothing more than another Hitler at the start.

He will fail just as Nazi Germany did.

a reply to: Xcathdra

The only difference is those arguments on how the article misses major key points and completely ignores others will be discredited on tv instead of us discrediting it in these threads.

Uh huh. Well I'm still waiting for all those sources showing how the points made are discredited. Getting your news from TV and MSM outlets sometimes isn't the best method of determining the truth you know.

That said we'll just have to disagree on it. I've never said Putin was a paragon of virtue just when it comes to dirty hands the West is at least as bad and IMO lately much dirtier.

Giving into Russia on Crimea is the equivalent of giving into Hitler over the Sudetenland. Its only the beginning and based on what I have seen of Putin to date

Whew still going I see. The only Nazis I see are in Kiev.

a reply to: DJW001

John Mearsheimer, who is an American professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago, wrote and submitted the piece to Foreign Affairs, which is a the flagship magazine publication from the Concil on Foreign Relations, which is a think tank/publishing group.

Some of their members include: Brian Williams, Fareed Zakaria, Angelina Jolie, Chuck Hagel, and Erin Burnett.

So it IS a opinion/editorial piece by John Mearsheimer. However, his piece does not indicate that the CFR itself, as a body, accepts everything that he has written as "fact" or that is what they believe.

Their submissions link says the following:

We do not have fact checkers and rely on authors to ensure the veracity of their statements. Although we try to avoid using footnotes, contributors should be able to provide appropriate citations for any facts or quotations their pieces contain. Unless otherwise informed, we assume any piece submitted to us is being offered exclusively and that no piece accepted for publication will be published elsewhere simultaneously in any form without our knowledge.

So, indeed, the article is just an opinion piece by John Mearsheimer, and not the CFR itself saying this. There may be a few, or many that belong to CFR (since it does not have a exclusive membership) that may also hold the same opinions and the opinion piece.

There are many publication organizations out there that will publish pieces from people, but does not mean that the publication organization aligns it self with the views of the articles they publish.

So yes, the title of the thread is a bit misleading. The article and information in it is from John Mearsheimer, not CFR itself.

Doesn't make it a hoax however....just a bit misleading from the OP.

a reply to: eriktheawful

The article and information in it is from John Mearsheimer, not CFR itself.

Doesn't make it a hoax however....just a bit misleading from the OP.

That was well said and as the original article I posted did say CFR in it's title so I followed T&C for the thread. I will agree with you though and perhaps I should have used the original source instead of an article that linked the source simply to avoid confusion.

As stated earlier I wanted participants of the thread to actually read the article and then the sources before diving in. In retrospect perhaps that was not the best way to present the article. I appreciate your input.

a reply to: Bassago

You attempted to pass it off as something that came from the CFR, not something submitted to it. I raised these points, which you ignored / discounted.

Spin at this point is useless on your part.

Is it really that difficult for the pro Russians to actually represent something as it is instead of omitting information / using misleading language to try and represent something its not. You know, like stating Crimea "voted" to join Russia, which it didn't.

Pro Russians complain about truth and propaganda yet engage in it themselves.

So do you really want the truth, or just a version of events that is distorted so its fits the pro Russian agenda?

As an example - No sooner does Russia complain about the Lithuanians at the UN on blocking what Russia wants we get this -

Ukraine crisis: Lithuania envoy killed in Luhansk

Lithuania's Foreign Minister Linas Linkevicius tweeted with "deep sorrow" that "Mr Mykola Zelenec was kidnapped & brutally killed by terrorists there".

Ukraine routinely calls the pro-Russian separatists in Luhansk "terrorists".

The news came amid reports that some Russian aid lorries had reached Luhansk without any permission from Ukraine.

There has been no comment from the rebels yet on the Lithuanian diplomat's death.

Lithuania is among the most vociferous EU member states in its criticism of Russian actions in Ukraine. The EU and US accuse Russia of fomenting the separatist rebellion in eastern Ukraine.

Relations -

Russia-Lithuania tensions

Mr Linkevicius described the entry of the Russian aid convoy into eastern Ukraine as "a blatant violation of international law", echoing Ukraine's condemnation of the move.

The UN Security Council is holding an emergency session at Lithuania's request to discuss the issue.

The Ukraine crisis has heightened tensions between Russia and the three Baltic republics - including Lithuania - which used to be Soviet republics governed from Moscow.

Russia's ambassador to the United Nations, Vitaly Churkin, lambasted the Lithuanian delegation on Friday.

He scorned "the indefatigable delegation of Lithuania, which is always torpedoing all productive, constructive initiatives we've had in the Security Council".

He said Lithuania had amended a Russian proposal calling for a ceasefire while the aid was distributed in Luhansk. He said the Lithuanian delegation "sent in amendments where they dropped the reference to Russia and included a reference to the European Union, and then dropped the reference to a ceasefire".

At the UN, he added, "the Lithuanian delegation starts working, and of course we know the division of labour - the US and UK are not far behind".

So when people claim in this forum that we need to repent or suffer Russia's wrath, is this what they mean?

If so does anyone really think people will comply.

a reply to: Xcathdra

You attempted to pass it off as something that came from the CFR, not something submitted to it. I raised these points, which you ignored / discounted.

Nope I was quite clear in posts who the author was and that I made no claim he was CFR, simple the CFR published it. Maybe you skipped all that, I don't really know.

originally posted by: Bassago
Nope I was quite clear in posts who the author was and that I made no claim he was CFR, simple the CFR published it. Maybe you skipped all that, I don't really know.

No really you didn't -

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: elementalgrove

2. Why would they throw the National Endowment for Democracy under the bus so to speak?

The only reason that makes any sense is that Western actions were not totally in the plan of the CFR. Most likely the US and NATO got greedy and jumped the gun. Western expansion is a huge temptation.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: kx12x

Thank you kx12x, this was one of the links within the articles of the OP. Probably should have added it but I'd hoped folks would actually read the links.

As I mentioned, this is history, for many younger folks this is unknown information. For "pro west" folks this is stuff to be avoided. For people who just want the truth, well this is gold.

Edit to add:

U.S. and European leaders blundered in attempting to turn Ukraine into a Western stronghold on Russia’s border.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: Xcathdra

As I stated before - your thread and its content has been posted time and again and debunked time and again.

As I said, Uh huh. I see nothing to validate what you say. Show me where it's been posted before. Show me where it has been debunked.

I know (from your postings) that you are "pro-west." I don't really care, I am pro-humanity. What I do care about are facts which you seem sadly short of. If the CFR site and statements aren't enough for you then I don't know what to say. Maybe "You're a credit to your government propaganda" will suffice.

originally posted by: Bassago
a reply to: Xcathdra

There you go again.This thread and links are about the CFR admission that the Ukraine crisis is the Wests fault. It is not about:


Russia and Nazi Germany
or
The USSR's failed economy
or
Putin and Russian press freedoms
or
Germany - Konigsberg
or
The KGB.

Nice try deflecting, no cigar though.

You guys can make the same topics over and over and over and yet, no mater how you hide the fact the info has been discussed and Russian claims debunked, the end result is clear.

BTW still waiting for your supporting "proof" and link sources showing this has been debunked.

The above comments of yours are from just the first 2 pages. You consistently try to pass this off as something coming from the CFR itself when in fact it did not.

When you got called out, you tried to spin it, which failed and blew up in your face.

Now, please explain why we should take what you say as valid when you just got caught lying about it in the first 2 pages of this thread?

You posted the info trying to pass it off as something coming from the CFR.
You posted that the EU/US got greedy and went beyond the CFR position.
You stated the thread is about the CFR when in fact its not.

By all means Mr. Putin, continue explaining to us why we should take what you say as valid and not an omission, lie or deliberate attempt to pass something off as its not.

You know, like you and others try to do with the "Crimean vote".

a reply to: Xcathdra

You posted the info trying to pass it off as something coming from the CFR. You posted that the EU/US got greedy and went beyond the CFR position. You stated the thread is about the CFR when in fact its not.

By all means Mr. Putin, continue explaining to us why we should take what you say as valid and not an omission, lie or deliberate attempt to pass something off as its not.

Nope as I said I followed T&C for what I posted and wanted participants to read it and view the sources. If you don't like that well too bad.

No sure who you are referring to as "Mr. Putin" but timelines and facts bear out the OP. As I said I don't really care if we agree or not, it's obvious you see the West as innocent and the East as evil. Go for it, sleep well.