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CFR: Ukraine Crisis, It's the Wests Fault

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posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 03:11 PM
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a reply to: victor7




Do not try to bend the facts.


Who is bending the facts, because that was one of the things they didn't want and as of yet have they done things the right way?


More than 100 Russian lorries entered on Friday without an Red Cross escort and most without customs clearance.



The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said it was not part of the convoy "in any way".


www.bbc.com...

Now the right way is to involve the Red Cross...not just do as you feel fit without them especially into a sovereign nation that you caused and support the arm separatists movement in.



Ukraine does not exist anymore since the public referendum in Donbass republics, to where this aid is going to. Russia is being too patient and nice here.


Sure it is...although you may want to look at a map once in a while as you will see it is still Ukraine, and that referendum wasn't legal since they went against the Ukraine constitution.


According to article 73 of the 1996 Constitution of Ukraine, and article 3 of the 2012 law on referendums, territorial changes can only be approved via a referendum if all citizens of the Ukraine are allowed to vote, including those that do not reside in the area.[21][22]

During the referendum in Crimea, the Central Election Commission of Ukraine also stated that there was no possibility for regional authorities to initiate such a referendum, according to Ukrainian legislation.[23]


en.wikipedia.org...

Again they did things the wrong way.



Who are Terrorists? Those who bring intentional pain and suffering to general society through their acts. Society was peaceful and normal going until the Junta in Kiev decided to launch the ATO using tanks and artillery.


So how come they only have military actions where the separatists are, and I think you may need to remove those blinders because the reason Ukraine is even conducting it's offensive is because of the separatists, so how are they not at fault?

Also launching attacks against those who are terrorizing towns in their country is well within their legal right to do so, and in case you forgot the separatists were offered the chance to end this early on and they said no sorry but all bets are off.

Again doing things the wrong way.



Junta in Kiev should be brought to War Crimes courts and prosecuted along with commanders of those units who are ordering artillery strikes on the cities.


If they were just lobbing artillery all nilly willy at the civilians without the separatists hiding among them then yes that could be an argument, and this is a big but...

They are only using the artillery against where the separatists are hiding, which in this case is among civilians and the sad reality of armed conflicts is that collateral damage happens and people die.

And the separatists can end this if they do what's right, although they haven't yet so I don't hold my breath.



ATOs is done using SWAT and Special Riot police type forces. Not using artillery and mortar on residential areas.


And you see a problem with this?

Although with your recent statements I see why you would. Now they are trying to keep the collateral damage at a minimum and that's a bad thing.

I see nothing will make certain people happy.




posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 03:22 PM
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a reply to: victor7




There is NO need for Kiev's consent now.


Yes they do, what exactly makes you think it is okay to send anything across sovereign borders without consent of said sovereign country?

You see without those trucks being cleared at customs they aren't allowed to cross the border, and when they did they broke the law and Ukraine are in their right to stop and detain this convoy until all trucks are inspected.



DPR is an independent state being attacked by "fascist goons" coercing the remanants of the army of a broken up country that ceased to exist.


And where exactly are you seeing that Ukraine doesn't exist, because if it's about the border that has been proven wrong.

Again with the facist name calling...why can you provide evidence to back that claim?



Due to lack of complete military cooperation from army these goons have now resorted to hiring criminals etc. to form a militia to kill for money.


Most people just call them separatists...




This Junta is EVIL and needs to be stopped before it engulfs others into similar war like situation.


And Ukraine is close to doing just that...you finally see the truth, good job.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 03:25 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien




I`m not going to post the link, because it would violate T&C, but time stamp tells what video I have been watching. I give you guys one more clue and that is G R, and with that clue you must be really stupid if you have no idea where to find it.


You know how to find out...ask a mod.

If they say it is okay are you willing to post it?

Also it isn't my burden to find what you consider evidence, because as far as I know your just making things up...now see the problem here?
edit on 22-8-2014 by tsurfer2000h because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 03:26 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Regime of Thieves was replaced by Regime of Killers.

Donbass leadership invited Kiev for talks but those were refused and responded with use of heavy weapons.

Junta forces could have thrown a siege on a town or area and let pass only essential items instead of attacking with tanks, artillery and mortars.

Initially it was ATO but now because of use of heavy weapons right from the start it has become a full fledged war.

The goal of Junta is EITHER they use heave weapons to destroy the resistance OR in the process destroy the infrastructure of the region before pulling back.

That is what Nazis did in WWII.

Before it gets more ugly it is better to officially split and go in own directions for all parties involved.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 03:39 PM
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originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: BornAgainAlien




I`m not going to post the link, because it would violate T&C, but time stamp tells what video I have been watching. I give you guys one more clue and that is G R, and with that clue you must be really stupid if you have no idea where to find it.


You know how to find out...ask a mod.

If they say it is okay are you willing to post it?

Also it isn't my burden to find what you consider evidence, because as far as I know your just making things up...now see the problem here?


I see a problem with you not being to able to find something...

Look at Global Research for a video of 1:37:06 length, and please don`t tell me you are not able to find that.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 04:01 PM
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a reply to: victor7




Donbass leadership invited Kiev for talks but those were refused and responded with use of heavy weapons.


So when did it become the country of Donbass, because the last time I checked it was still the country of Ukraine, and they have the right to end an armed separatists movement in the country of Ukraine?



Junta forces could have thrown a siege on a town or area and let pass only essential items instead of attacking with tanks, artillery and mortars.


And when they try they are attacked, so how is that going to work?



The goal of Junta is EITHER they use heave weapons to destroy the resistance OR in the process destroy the infrastructure of the region before pulling back.


Have they done that anywhere they are, because they leave the area when the separatists do.

Also what makes you believe the separatists haven't done their own damage to the infrastructure as the were retreating. That's right the separatists are the saints in this conflict and have done nothing wrong...how could I forget.



That is what Nazis did in WWII.


Well then you should feel at ease as the government of Ukraine are not Nazi's.




Before it gets more ugly it is better to officially split and go in own directions for all parties involved.


Or Ukraine kicks the tar out of the separatists, and Ukraine can go back to being the sovereign nation called Ukraine.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 04:06 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien




Look at Global Research for a video of 1:37:06 length, and please don`t tell me you are not able to find that.


See you could have just said that and I would have questioned the credibility of the evidence and probably let it go by as the source is questionable and anything they post is questionable.

See that doesn't violate any T&C's.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 04:12 PM
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originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: BornAgainAlien




Look at Global Research for a video of 1:37:06 length, and please don`t tell me you are not able to find that.


See you could have just said that and I would have questioned the credibility of the evidence and probably let it go by as the source is questionable and anything they post is questionable.

See that doesn't violate any T&C's.


It`s an YouTube video from within East-Ukraine...try to debunk the raw images from what is happening over there...you can`t...and I wonder you have the stomach to watch what you support.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 05:04 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h



And when they try they are attacked, so how is that going to work?


Rules of engagement confirm that an attack by say gun or knife does not warrant a response by artillery and tanks. Junta was too trigger happy and WILL pay the price.

There is no going back to Ukraine of Feb 22 2014. It ceased to exist that day.

The only going back is defeated fascist Junta forces of the Galicia Republic made out of the western bulge on the map bordering Poland and Hungary.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 05:42 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien




It`s an YouTube video from within East-Ukraine...try to debunk the raw images from what is happening over there.


How about a name as there are too many to sit through?



and I wonder you have the stomach to watch what you support.


Do you?



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: victor7




Rules of engagement confirm that an attack by say gun or knife does not warrant a response by artillery and tanks. Junta was too trigger happy and WILL pay the price.


And you still believe that they are some little rag tag group that doesn't used mortars and anti tank weapons, because it was shown on many occasions that they used mortars against border posts, so yes the do warrant the response.

And exactly what world would that be true, because in the real world Ukraine still exists?




The only going back is defeated fascist Junta forces of the Galicia Republic made out of the western bulge on the map bordering Poland and Hungary.



Your world really does seem fun...



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 05:54 PM
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originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: BornAgainAlien




It`s an YouTube video from within East-Ukraine...try to debunk the raw images from what is happening over there.


How about a name as there are too many to sit through?



and I wonder you have the stomach to watch what you support.


Do you?


It was posted on Global Research, so really easy find.

I have seen the whole vid, so no idea what you are asking ?



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 06:06 PM
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a reply to: victor7

Lets review -
Ukraine did not recognize the vote.
The West did not recognize the vote.
The UN did not recognize the vote.
Russia did not recognize the vote

Finally, and you either missed it or ignored it, but the "government" you claim is in charge fled back to Russia., leaving a long wide path of yellow behind them. Its apparently more acceptable to the cowards who fled to sacrifice those under them than die themselves leading. Another common occurrence in Russia.

try again

Which ties back in to the fact the West is not responsible for what's occurring in Ukraine, Russia is.


edit on 22-8-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 22-8-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 06:10 PM
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originally posted by: BornAgainAlien

It was posted on Global Research, so really easy find.



lol I see why you didn't want to post the link.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 06:14 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h




And you still believe that they are some little rag tag group that doesn't used mortars and anti tank weapons, because it was shown on many occasions that they used mortars against border posts, so yes the do warrant the response.


Glad you brought that up. Initially militia was armed only with rag-tag personal weapons. But Junta attacked them with complete army forces with all the appliances big and small. The situation for militia became bad and a retreat from Sloviansk sent the message to Moscow. From first week of July heavy weapons started to trickle in and now situation has somewhat stabilized. Militia is still heavily outnumbered in both men and machines but are fighting valiantly.

When hit with heavy then respond with heavy and that is what is going on now !!

Btw, Ukes Army can blame Porky Poro for making the situation bad from mild police action to full fledged war. He broke the cease fire and then refused a new one. Then he went on to order military to complete ATO by Aug 24th in order to have a Grand Military Parade.

IS THAT A WAY TO DEAL WITH MILITARY MATTERS IN 21ST CENTURY. THAT SOUNDS LIKE A COMMIE GENERAL RACING TO BEAT HIS COLLEAGUE IN CAPTURING SOME TOWN TO GET OWN NAME IN THE HISTORY BOOKS.

LIVES OF HIS OWN SOLDIERS OR CIVILIANS DO NOT MATTER.

IN 21ST CENTURY SUCH ACTION ARE CALLED WAR CRIMES.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 06:20 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra




Russia did not recognize the vote


Russia recognized the vote but has "not yet" recognized the DPR as independent states. Soon that recognition is also coming.

West and UN need not recognize anything. They are only fueling tension in a vulnerable third world country for their own goals. West is behind Porky Poro and Junta taking hardline stand on DPR's demand. Bet west has several blackmail items on Junta leaders like foreign bank accounts and offshore shell companies etc.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 07:06 PM
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a reply to: victor7

You really have no concept of how this works do you?

Russia is not going to recognize anything else in Ukraine. Russia pulling its forces from Ukraine. The puppet government leadership in the south / east Ukraine are jumping ship and going back home to Russia. As I said, and you confirmed, no entity recognizes the government in the south / east Ukraine. Just like no one recognizes Crimea as being a part of Russia. All Russia is doing there is occupying Ukraine territory.

Ukraine captured some more Russian military equipment inside Ukraine.

Russia has been warned by the West, the EU and the UN that if they enter Ukraine under the guise of peacekeeping, it would be considered an invasion.

Putin is done. He is so arrogant that he has problems destroying everything around him to show the west what kind of nards he has (yes - Nards).


edit on 22-8-2014 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 07:43 PM
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Ah! I see that the essay in Foreign Affairs Quarterly is no longer the topic of this thread. Score one for the Putinistas' ability to derail a thread by hammering away with irrelevant talking points.



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 07:49 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra


You really have no concept of how this works do you?


After "no referendum" Kosovo please stop chanting Crimea, it is now useless.

Why the ukrainians not voting about NATO? Scroll down a little for answer:

Support in Ukraine for NATO membership since 2002

Is the ukrainian crisis the west's fault? Ask about it Kerry, Biden, Soros, McCain, Nuland, Ashton and other puppets.


Support?



In support of this version, with reference to the Ukrainian security services, detailed scheme of Maidan funding is posted on the Internet: “Every leader of resistance team was promised a cash reward. $200 per day for each active fighter, and an additional $500, if the group is over 10 people, have been promised. Coordinators have been to pay minimum $2,000 per day of riots provided the controlled group performs direct offensive actions targeted at law enforcement officials and representatives of the public authorities. The U.S. Embassy in Kiev received cash. Active fighters and leaders were transferred payments to their personal accounts.” The information about the management of militants along with their bank accounts is also posted on the Internet.

In a country where the average monthly minimum wage stands at about $150 USD, it's not hard to understand why Ukrainians are in the streets. They do not want to be in Russia's orbit, nor do they want to be pawns of NATO.


Maidan is U.S. anti-Russian front (29 January, 2014)



posted on Aug, 22 2014 @ 08:02 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra




Ukraine captured some more Russian military equipment inside Ukraine. Russia has been warned by the West, the EU and the UN that if they enter Ukraine under the guise of peacekeeping, it would be considered an invasion.


Why do you conduct disinformation? NATO has reported some artillery manned by Russians inside the Ukraine territory. There has been no capture by Junta forces. Russia should bring in more and more artillery support to help the rebels.

3-4 Junta brigades have been destroyed or may be severely smashed but Junta took the broken pieces and made other brigades with different numbers. There is also a call for another round of mobilization.

However facts on ground are pretty much like this:
a) Initially army had an easy going and they gained ground well.
b) This lead to several volunteer battalions being made as everyone wants to be a war hero and especially in an easy war against the rag tag untrained rebels.
c) Then Russia started sending heavy weapons and matters stalled for Junta forces.
d) 3-4 Brigades were smashed and there was a sudden drop in army morale.
e) Now reports are Junta army and volunteers merely use artillery and mortars from distance and run away.
f) 30th Mechanized was one of the smashed brigades recently. Started with 4700 men. After smashing only 83 returned back to Kiev. Some were surely killed but most of them deserted. Lot many who reported locally were formed into other brigades. Colonel was complaining that we did not send them to be killed against a suprior force, but as soon as it gets rough they retreat or simply run away.

End of it all, practically speaking, it is not an end for rebels by any means. Russia has not pulled out any support and is infact increasing it. NATO and West can watch and wonder what went wrong with their wicked plans to encircle Russia and declare wars later on.

Btw, today China refused to go on with sanctions against Russia. India already refused face to face and in public few days ago. Brazil is infact enhancing trade and so is South Africa.

Russians are finally looking domestically to produce items on own or buy it from better friends.

Top Song on Porky Poro

www.liveleak.com...


edit on 22-8-2014 by victor7 because: (no reason given)

edit on 22-8-2014 by victor7 because: (no reason given)



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