CFR: Ukraine Crisis, It's the Wests Fault

a reply to: victor7

Since you seem to be unfamiliar with our Constitution and our Military -

Our military takes an oath to the constitution, not an individual or an office. They are sworn to protect against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Our Constitutional also allows the people to make a change in government when that government no longer has the consent of the people.

Unlike Russia though removal of the government is an absolute last resort. The other thing you, and others, seem to fail in understanding is our internal politics. Time and again throughout our history external threats have attempted to take advantage of internal US politics, only to find out how quickly those differences go away when an outside threat presents itself.


As for a future issue not involving the 3rd world, I would agree. In this case it would be countries opposed to Putin channeling Stalin with Russia as a second 2nd world country. There is nothing to repent for and that mentality is why you would completely and utterly fail as a strategic thinker, political or military leader.

Your position, along with Putin's, is that of wanting to prove a point that has been proven a failure in the past by every Soviet / Russian leader.

Russia is THE largest country on the planet and yet act in the same manner as Boko Haram, dictating to people who don't share their ideology with an all or nothing game plan. That may have worked in the past where you had essentially 3 different major groups - The West, The Warsaw pact and unaligned nations.

That world is gone and the failure of putin to understand that is why he will fail. Even your mentality and wording is problematic because you somehow think you are superior to all others, a fatal flaw for the Nazis.

BRICS will not save Russia or China.
The more aggressive Russia get the more nations who will not want to deal with Russia. Russia applied a tremendous amount pressure to nations during the initial declaration condemning Russia for its actions. in the end the bulk of those smaller countries stood their ground.

If Russia moves the situation closer to their borders, the more pushback Russia is going to get. The more markets Russia closes the less they are going to have for their civilian and military sectors.

The main reasons why the USSR collapsed - economic failure.

A nation is not great because of its conquests -

A lesson the USSR and current day Russia don't seem to understand and will most likely never will until they get a leader who live in the now.

Russias (putins) arrogance is what caused the mess in Georgia, and Ukraine, and the other former SSR's. The mess in Ukraine is not the fault of the west, its Russias and its because of their refusal to understand its no longer the cold war.

Evidence seen in the way Russia is attempting to dictate to the Ukraine who it can and cannot deal with.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Forget about Russia and worry about your own country. US down the drain would be a disaster for the whole world. Have mentioned before 80% of the US is very preferable infact top of the choice but certain actions are rapidly pushing it down to a quagmire type situation.

Porky Poro has a good chance to come to terms with Putin in next the two days meeting. Beyond which, he will most probably lose half of the map which is currently called Ukraine. Peace is something he should look forward not war in which civilians are hurting badly.

Btw, if things heat up further beyond Ukraine, then expect Merkel to "seal shut" her panties and walk out of the NATO. Follow up from France and other countries like Dutch, Austria, Spain will be next. Alliance will cease to exist in a matter of couple of weeks.

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: Bassago

Not saying its morally correct.however any country would make the same advances if said country was a world super power,simply to protect its interests. What I dont like is how we hide behind moraliTy to sell protecting our interest, I feel it would be better to have a dialogue with our people. That may be impossible for security reasons

You are right that empires and superpowers do this, and this is a critical understanding. Second, the US is the current empire/superpower, and is doing all of the geopolitical hegemonic chess games that such powers do. Third, I 1000% agree with you that the bull about "we're intervening in/invading/staging a coup in/supporting a civil war in _____ is because we are fighting for democracy and freedom!!!" is total propaganda. I actually respect the people more that are honest about it than the brainwashed people or liars who state that it's for democracy and "world-policing."

Having said that, I still think that once realizes exactly what you and I just said, then it is morally impossible to simultaneously believe in American values of universal human rights and freedom and support our foreign policy (or that of other powers such as Russia). I have served my country instead in working to address poverty, racial and cultural issues, etc. I cannot join the military as it has become all about global power, not justice.

Precisely.

The CFR is more of a club for high end people of all kinds: scientists, politicians, writers, intellectuals, economists, etc. For example, I went to a roundtable at the CFR and all it was was a well known female social entrepreneur who was discussing corporations and human rights and environmentalism. That's it.

And, as you say, the CFR is composed of all kinds of well known people. They MAINLY publish in other forums and through other mediums, such as the universities or organizations that they work for. They usually are invited or make the cut for the CFR because of their prestige.

originally posted by: DJW001
I seem to be late to the dance, but I would like to point out that the essay cited in the blogs cited in the OP represent the views of Mr. Mearsheimer, not those of the Council On Foreign Relations. Contrary to popular belief, the CFR is not a monolithic cabal. It is a forum for academics and diplomats to discuss their views on important topics. This essay might be re-titled: "How to mismanage a regional policy." The intent of the author is to question policy choices that should be revised in future, not expose wrong-doing or apportion blame.

It is not uncommon for FAQ to dedicate issues to specific issues, with contributors submitting essays pro and contra. (Eg; The future of Chinese-American relations: growing interdependence or inevitable conflict?)

Just because a professor from the University of Chicago publishes a paper entitled: "The failures of Free Market Capitalism in the early 21st Century" does not mean that the UC Economics Department has suddenly become a nest of Bolsheviks.

Everything you say may or may not be true.

The problem is, everything you say is equally viable for the US government/Military/CIA. Their history is horrific over the past 60 years.

let's try out your style:

They can't accept that Guatemalans elected a democratically elected government that was not friendly to the US, and decided to stage a coup and install a dictator.

They can't accept that Vietnam might have gone communist and fell under the USSR's sphere of influence. It is none of the US' business according to you if Vietnam goes USSR. Remember, you said that it is none of Russia's business of Ukraine goes NATO.

They can't accept that people around the world might vote or have leaders that don't follow US dictates, and hence those leaders must be removed (Guatemala, Iran, Libya, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Syria, etc)

How does that feel now? Refreshed?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: ParasuvO

He cant accept the fact Russia is not the USSR.
He cant accept the fact former SSR's will no longer jump when Moscow tells them to.
He cant except the fact that his actions are the reason countries are being pushed to the west / EU / NATO.
He cant accept the fact that there is no "nearabroad".
He cant accept the fact that Germany sided with the EU/West of Russian actions in Ukraine.
He cant accept the fact that Crimea belongs to Ukraine.

etc etc etc

This mess is not Russia verses the west.

Its Putin, as an individual, putting his arrogance / ego / vanity front and center with something to prove.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I respect the caretakers of social welfare I've always said," to be a high functioning super power you cant have people dying in the streets", it creates apathy and disintegrate's the republic from the inside out. Having said that, i disagree we can have these rights, and spread these rights as the umbrella grows, but we must be careful that our leaders do not only support their agenda, but also support us as a people otherwise an Orwellian world is quite likely. I believe we must stop warfare as a species, and turn outward towards the stars and colonization/terraforming of suitable planets. I believe we must find a more efficient energy source and structure around that energy. I believe the funneling of resource into a high echelon, commonly called the 1 percent is also a threat to our empire. I also believe that warring may have to continue until we've wiped out all resistance and further our goals as humans under one umbrella. But then maybe im just a dreamer

a reply to: victor7

Again, what you just typed and the mentality behind it is why the USSR, and now Russia and Putin, will fail. The very fact that one of your repeated positions is for the world to let Russia do, and take, whatever it wants and should be quiet while it happens.

Let me point something out. The only reason the USSR existed was because Allied High Command opted to ignore Patton. In a rematch that wont happen and currently, Russia is not in any position for a large scale war involving the west.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

Everything you say may or may not be true.

Sure anything can happen. My position is based on what I read and research coupled with what I see coming out of Putin.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
The problem is, everything you say is equally viable for the US government/Military/CIA. Their history is horrific over the past 60 years.

The problem is it was 60 years ago. The US has moved on, along with the bulk of the rest of the world. Russia came along, but Putin decided he liked it better in the 1980's and is putting it in reverse to go back to it. That is a disaster in the making, for everyone.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
let's try out your style:

They can't accept that Guatemalans elected a democratically elected government that was not friendly to the US, and decided to stage a coup and install a dictator.

Like the USSR did at the end of WWII with Eastern Europe, Afghanistan, etc.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
They can't accept that Vietnam might have gone communist and fell under the USSR's sphere of influence. It is none of the US' business according to you if Vietnam goes USSR. Remember, you said that it is none of Russia's business of Ukraine goes NATO.

The US has reestablished relations with Vietnam and are in discussion for them to purchase US weapons as well as working with the US and her partners in that region. Why? Because of China. They still purchase from Russia but with Russia allying itself more and more with China that's becoming more of a problem. Secondly looking at history the US lost the Vietnam war. We could have used nukes and we did not. We could have poured more forces in but we didn't.

Secondly you are confusing doctrine from the 1960's and the cold war to current day, and that's a problem. In the 1960s there truly were spheres of influence. Not so today and to cling to the past, like Putin is doing, is not sustainable. It will result in disaster.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
They can't accept that people around the world might vote or have leaders that don't follow US dictates, and hence those leaders must be removed (Guatemala, Iran, Libya, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Syria, etc)

And you would be wrong based on the fact those countries have leaders the US did not want or like. We did not invade, nor did we annex. Iraq is pursuing closer ties with Iran. Afghanistan is pursuing closer ties with China. Cuba is pursuing closer ties with Russia.

The US has not invaded nor annexed.

Russia on the other hand invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea. All because they don't like the government in place because Russia cannot control the government there. If You are trying to justify Russian actions in Ukraine then I can argue the US is within its right to invade Cuba and annex it because its in our sphere of influence.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
How does that feel now? Refreshed?

Not really.. All you have done is used the past to justify Russian actions. Like Putin, you need to come to the present since that is where we are. In case you and Putin forgot, you lost the cold war. Why adopt a stance that not only ended in failure and defeat, but resulted in the collapse of the USSR?

Feel refreshed now?

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

I believe we must stop warfare as a species, and turn outward towards the stars and colonization/terraforming of suitable planets. I believe we must find a more efficient energy source and structure around that energy. I believe the funneling of resource into a high echelon, commonly called the 1 percent is also a threat to our empire. I also believe that warring may have to continue until we've wiped out all resistance and further our goals as humans under one umbrella. But then maybe im just a dreamer.

a reply to: TechniXcality

Going outside the earth which is soon going to happen in 20 years, will not solve the problem of hatred and dislike between the humans based on religion, race, culture etc. It might even inflate further the in fighting etc. Even folks of same religion have proven to have wars and hatred. Ex: in middle east, even those workers who are Islamic but from Africa usually end up with lower level jobs and are paid only little bit more than their home countries, where the unemployment rates are high.

Even if there is an alien invasion, then for the time being human race, might and only might, unite but as soon as problem is taken care of, the selfish, greedy, power hungry human EGO will take over again and we will all be back to fighting for this or that.

New energy sources are very much needed and in 10 years we will have another bone in the fight i.e. fresh water. Desalination is one alternative but costs will be incurred and money getting involved will bring in all sorts of tensions.

a reply to: Xcathdra

In a rematch that wont happen and currently, Russia is not in any position for a large scale war involving the west.

I do not know much about military but in general can say that in a scenario where Russia has neutralized even for the time being like a month or so, the USAF capabilities, then Russia can atleast give a very destructive fight response to the West.

Also, like the West, Russia also has an alliance and treaties with other major nations and that changes the equation...............very dramatically.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Russia invaded Ukraine. Your info has been posted time and again and debunked

This again? you recently are rather on trying to prove your claim that Russia had invaded Ukraine through the means of crimea over and over again yet for number of times you kept using western news sources as source of proof.

Care to explain and prove that Ukraine destroyed several Russian trucks still?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: maghun

Your lost...

Ukraine was offered NATO status in 2010. Yanukovych declined. NATO accepted that result.

Its to bad Russia can't accept it.

What benefits would Ukraine have gained if it joined NATO status in 2010? none.

a reply to: victor7

i don't really see this as a retort or even a reasonable argument other than opinion( not to say mine is not opinion either), people can live under one umbrella with there practices and beliefs protected. So i really just feel you want to disagree with me just to disagree instead to offer and a better solution to all of man kind?

originally posted by: victor7

I do not know much about military

and that is the problem.

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

Yes Russia invaded Ukraine.

Hence the reason the op topic is based on ignorance.

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

No one ever stated what they gained or lost. What we are talking about is the fact the invitation was given because of Ukraine going through the steps prior to join. They opted not to join, and NATO and the west respected that.

The West/NATO did not invade Ukraine when they declined to join NATO.
Russia however invaded Ukraine when it did give Putin what he wanted.

Which again demonstrates that the OP article is off base.

a reply to: TechniXcality

Glad you brought this up. Infact my own formula for global people is 80% US model and 20% own regional, religion, culture based. It is somewhat catching up though, thanks to internet and cable television.

Give peace some time like 20 years and this model should start to give good results. The crucial factor is long lasting peaceful times to embolden people to take "off the tangent" measures to bring changes.

Infact, in 2011 when Egypt was having its Arab Spring, among the buddies only I was off the line. My views were that changes are needed but cannot be that drastic like overnight or over the week. The third world society structures and huge inefficiencies would not be able to handle. The result would be opportunists and powerful will gain further and common persons will become more vulnerable. Today, Egypt is under same rule of military appointed dictator and economy is in chaos. Common persons are more vulnerable.

Hence any changes should be slow and steady and before we know it, they have already become strong. Peace is much more important as that gives security which further encourages changes in societies and cultures.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Yes Russia invaded Ukraine.

Hence the reason the op topic is based on ignorance.

Your denial of originating events, the Wests interference and toppling of Ukraine's democratically elected president is breathtaking. As is your total dismissal of the originating article.

Believe as you will if it helps you sleep better. Oh and as far as the CIA moving on, etc, well:

"We tortured a few folks."

Now that's progress!