Scottish Independance & Possible Huge Oil Discovery

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Most of those Scots living elsewhere in the UK are there for a reason...Work.
It's a sad day when you need to leave the country of your birth to better yourself...Now i wonder who was steering the ship when this particular boatload of 800,000 sailed away and continue to do so for a better life ...oh, that's right, the people in charge, the people who hold all of Scotland's wealth and hand us back some pocket money.. Westminster.

I saw this on the No Facebook page the other week and they tore it to shreds, not least pointing out that Scotland has been devolved for 17 years now, yet things are still being blamed on Westminster, rather than Holyrood buggering up. But if something good happens, then that is Holyrood doing it's job well.

It's like the SNP being caught out the other week about how those evil Westminster types are privatising the NHS and only an independent Scotland can stop it - forgetting to mention that the NHS is also devolved in Scotland...

Or how the SNP also claimed that Westminster was ruining Education.... Which is also devolved...

Or any one of the other things they claim is Westminster's fault, when in actual fact it is Holyrood which runs the show. All Westminster does is write a big cheque every year

a reply to: yorkshirelad

My only issue with an independence vote is the near permanent majority this hands the Tories in England.....

Yes, its a worry.

........ who have as much sympathy for Northerners as they do the Scots (but nobody NOBODY in Scotland understands that, too busy whining all the time about "England").

Yes, Scotland thinks its the only region that has been exploited, neglected and marginalised - the truth is somewhat different.

Salmond tonight totally blindsided the question about currency. No nation can be truly independent without control over it's currency.

I just don't understand why a newly independent country would want to tie itself to a currency it had absolutely no say or control over - surely as a result financial matters would largely be governed by another sovereign nation....that's not independence.

And do they honestly think the rest of the UK would allow its currency to underwrite a newly fledged independent nation with all the risks that go along with it.
No way.
Any politician advocating such a thing would be consigning themselves to the political wilderness - it simply will not happen.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Agree 100% with your solution a federal uk,.....

With the introduction of a Direct Democratic system - party politics has outlived its purpose.

...... however think you are totally wrong in your belief that there is a growing support for this.

I can only speak as I find - an its my experience that more and more people are coming round to this way of thought.
It seems to go hand in hand with the realisation of just how London centric UK society is and how there is an urgent need to break away from this.

The only uk party who support any form of constitutional change are the lib dems who have now become tory lite

I have no faith in any political party.

a reply to: stumason

On the subject of the North - and you touch on the subject of under-publicised events - there are a variety of projects either earmarked or actually underway to improve employment and economic opportunities, but these always seem to be forgotten when people like to rail against the London centric Government.

A drop in the ocean and nowhere near enough to make any significant difference.
And it pails into insignificance when compared to the amounts being invested in London and The Home Counties etc.

And the thing is stu, it simply shouldn't have gotten this bad in the first place.
Successive governments of all persuasions have neglected the North East and other regions of the UK.
This government is no different - but of course there's an election coming up and now Cameron has to be seen to be at least trying to do something.

Me being cynical?
Maybe mate - and I'm absolutely certain you too would be if you'd lived up here for 48 years and witnessed the neglect at first hand like I have.

a reply to: Freeborn

I agree, 30+ years (or more) of under-investment anywhere outside the Home counties is an issue and, like I said, it won't be something solved overnight, but I am an optimistic sort and there are a wide range of things that have been in the works for a few years (so not really electioneering), but they don't really get the coverage they should, not just HS2 and the additional plan for the Northern cities, but various industrial deals done which will (or have) provide thousands of jobs.

a reply to: Danbones

It is the tartan talliban in those parts and the midgie's protect the field's

In 2006, the number of New Zealanders born in Scotland was recorded as 29,016, In 1956, the figure was 46,401.
So where did they all go? 1. Home? 2. Australia?
Maybe some of both, but more likely the majority 3.became citizens of the country they lived in.
There are approx 5 million Scots in the USA,
same amount in Canada.
and probably the same again scattered around the rest of the World.
too bad we don't get to vote on this.

I'm one of the 3rd tier, but I could/will get my Scottish Passport when they come out.
I think the folks "back home" will do good being Independent from the UK.
NZ has about the same population, we do just fine.
Forget about the EU, what a waste of an entire generations lives that was/is.

Scotland can still be part of the international group's, be it NATO, the Commonwealth etc

There is still plenty of Oil out there, all over the place, the big question is "how much are you willing to pay for it?"

a reply to: stumason

North East England - the only region in the UK where unemployment is still rising.
North East England - the only region in the UK where the standard of living is getting worse.
North East England - the only region in the UK where house prices are dropping, (don't really know why that should be viewed as a bad thing).

HS2 is coming absolutely nowhere near North East England.....and there are no plans at all to suggest that it ever will.

Plans for northern cities?
Reeks of electioneering to me - do nothing for years then promise an 'announcement' in December prior to next years election - seen it all before.
www.theguardian.com...

And there's a damn sight more to the North East than Newcastle!
Plans for Teesside and Tees Valley? - Nothing.
Plans for County Durham? - Nothing.
Plans for Wearside? - Nothing.

I could go on and on about the serial and ongoing under funding and outright neglect the North East has and is enduring but I fear we are in danger of hi-jacking this thread by washing our dirty linen in public - those of the 'Yes' persuasion must be loving this.

My point was that compared to one or two other regions of the UK, Scotland actually has it quite good at present and they have a damn sight more control over their own affairs than any of us.

I thought I would pop back into this thread just to comment on last night's debate between Darling and Salmond.Perhaps it's just me but I found the whole thing petty and dissappointing and not just the debaters, the audience too.

I don't think there is any doubt in anyone's mind that Scotland could go it alone. For me the greatest obstacle at the moment for those that aspire towards independence is Salmond. We are weighing up the pro's and con's of what such a radical change would amount to and he offers nothing really. Tuition fees and the bedroom tax are nice vote winning topics but in the face of such a momentous choice they don't really cut it. He also avoids the issue of currency and insists we will have union. Fair enough but why not talk about other options in a little more depth. I, like him, don't believe for a minute that there wouldn't be but it is an issue for a lot of voters. I don't think he really cares so much...he is in a win win situation whatever the outcome.

What he really should be talking about is the banks, the energy suppliers, the scandals in Westminster. He should be offering a referendum on Europe and the monarchy. He should talk about new potential oil finds such as in the Clyde...that is if he took the time to at least explore the previous reports. He could talk about the UK's role in conflicts around the world.

I am a bit too simplistic I know but if it were up to me I would create a new currency with our own nationalised central bank. Nationalise the power companies, get rid of the monarchy...and not touch Europe with a barge pole.

a reply to: midicon

Found itr odd that it was not broadcast in the whole of the UK seeing it effects us all but I watched it on you tube and Salmon failed failed big.

"Answer the question Alex!" lol.

I think in a time where we should be making more unions and eventually a world union splitting up is a step backwards and I agree the Scots have it much better than the rest of us already.

a reply to: Freeborn

I am of a yes persuasion and just find it disappointing that there is not more of a movement in England to decentralise power. If there was would be quite happy for the border to be near the M25.

a reply to: midicon

Problem is if he did what you suggest he would be preaching to the converted. What he had to do was persuade the undecided. That said i agree it was a disappointing performance.

a reply to: boymonkey74

I think in a time where we should be making more unions and eventually a world union splitting up is a step backwards and I agree the Scots have it much better than the rest of us already.

We don't really have it much better. I too believe people are better together. Think about it for a moment, if you were able to get rid of that lot currently in power in Westminster...and not only them but the other lot as well...and not forgetting Whitehall which really pulls the string. Would you not go for it...It is a dream come true.

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Most of those Scots living elsewhere in the UK are there for a reason...Work.
It's a sad day when you need to leave the country of your birth to better yourself...Now i wonder who was steering the ship when this particular boatload of 800,000 sailed away and continue to do so for a better life ...oh, that's right, the people in charge, the people who hold all of Scotland's wealth and hand us back some pocket money.. Westminster.

I saw this on the No Facebook page the other week and they tore it to shreds, not least pointing out that Scotland has been devolved for 17 years now, yet things are still being blamed on Westminster, rather than Holyrood buggering up. But if something good happens, then that is Holyrood doing it's job well.

It's like the SNP being caught out the other week about how those evil Westminster types are privatising the NHS and only an independent Scotland can stop it - forgetting to mention that the NHS is also devolved in Scotland...

Or how the SNP also claimed that Westminster was ruining Education.... Which is also devolved...

Or any one of the other things they claim is Westminster's fault, when in actual fact it is Holyrood which runs the show. All Westminster does is write a big cheque every year

Lets me simplify it for you...Westminster holds the purse strings, devolved or not we have very little powers with regards to the NHS,Education...yeah we are allowed so gracefully by Westminster to fund it, but for how long...if we dont have control over our own tax raising and spending then we have control over zilch.
Here's an example of the power that our devolved parliament has...When the SNP found £50 million to banish the bedroom tax...WE had to ask permission from Westminster if we could use the money...Please Mummy, let me spend my own money on what i want...eh, i'll think about it and get back to you...

Devolution means nothing. it only gives you the power to run your own house with the finances Westminster decide you will get after the more important things like trident £130 Billion (on our doorstep ima)....HS2 running at £87 million over budget and rising, thats £189 Million so far and runs nowhere near Scotland and the new London sewage system £4.2 Billion are taken care of. even though these three things will never benefit Scotland we still have to take a cut in our Weekly Allowance because London Say's so...

And you wonder why we are in a rage up here. Christ!! we even had to pay for the commonwealth games from our own pocket unlike London who just had to ask Camelot for a hand out for the Olympics and boy did they get it...£2.2 Billion...Scotland got £0.00

Scotland need to go it alone. until we do, then we will always be Westminster rich old demented uncle who gets fleeced left right and centre.

politicians and money, its always about the economy , oil will run out soon and water will be next , but we have alot of that in Scotland.Are we suddenly going to be invaded should we become independent are the US or Russia about to step on us !

Sad thing is no one ever talks about the positive things we have to offer to an independent Scotland.

a reply to: midicon

I thought I would pop back into this thread just to comment on last night's debate between Darling and Salmond.Perhaps it's just me but I found the whole thing petty and dissappointing and not just the debaters, the audience too.

I followed it live on a blog as rUK were not allowed to watch it for some reason?

The impression I got was that Darling 'won' the debate, just, on points but neither of them were impressive and both used typical politicians evasive techniques when faced with difficult questions.

I think people in Scotland under-estimate just how opposed rUK is to a shared currency if Scotland chooses independence.
And it'll be foolhardy to dismiss just how much weight public opinion would carry in such an instance.
If the Yes vote is successful then ok, Scotland has made its choice - I don't think its best choice for Scotland but my opinion is ultimately irrelevant - and I for one would wish you all the best.
But why should rUK underwrite such a venture?
If it goes pear shaped why should rUK suffer?
And why would a newly independent country want to be reliant on a currency it has absolutely zero say or control over? - that is not independence.
Seems to me like some people want to have their cake and eat it.
Independence will not ALL be on Scotland's terms - rUK should not suffer detrimentally because Scotland has chosen independence.
Opposition to a shared currency is very strong throughout the whole of rUK.

I don't think there is any doubt in anyone's mind that Scotland could go it alone.

I have no doubt you can make a go of it - but is it really your best option?
Its not a question of 'can you' but rather 'should you' - a distinction many seem to be missing.

For me the greatest obstacle at the moment for those that aspire towards independence is Salmond.

The man is considered a fool on the world stage, and that could prove fatal to a fledgling country.
And Sturgeon is an odious character.

Of course their counter-parts south of the border aren't any better - like I said before; from the same deck of cards just a different suit.

You list many negatives and things that are wrong in the UK as a whole - but I genuinely believe we have a better chance of changing those for the better by standing united together - maybe I'm the one who is naïve, idealistic and simplistic, I don't know? But experience tells me there is strength in numbers.

And as with all things, we all sometimes concentrate on the negatives, every once in a while it pays to spend a little time considering the positives.

I am a bit too simplistic I know but if it were up to me I would create a new currency with our own nationalised central bank. Nationalise the power companies, get rid of the monarchy...and not touch Europe with a barge pole.

And where would the harm be in achieving those in a Federalised Union?

a reply to: ScepticScot

I am of a yes persuasion and just find it disappointing that there is not more of a movement in England to decentralise power. If there was would be quite happy for the border to be near the M25.

There is an increasing awareness that we need to break the London centric nature of UK society - even the Tories recognise this.
The differences are in exactly how we go about achieving this and to what extent.

The movement towards devolved power to ALL regions is growing, slowly but definitely surely - from small acorns and all that.

I'm hoping Scotland votes yes

I've literally had enough of the lies and BS delusions, and most of all I've had enough of all the vile hatred towards the rest of the UK, It appears the hatred toward England on specific has been remnant of 800yrs ago and tbh I find it sickening and petty...

I'm now quite looking forward to making a number of told you so posts while Scotland drowns in debt and poverty and adopts the euro, I hope the rest of us in the UK will get a vote on whether Scotland can use the pound, because I think after Scotland sticks it's two fingers up to the rest of the UK we'll in turn stick two fingers back up at Scotland for there hatred towards us, if devolution a is what Scotland wants, then so be it, close the boarders, and cut them lose... #s about to get real ugly again,

Christ almighty...IT'S NOT ENGLANDS POUND. Get it,? got it? good.... Scotland has as much right to use the pound as England, NI or Wales...we helped build it. We will be keeping it.

All the No camp seem to focus on is The Pound...why, because they have nothing else other than the threat to take away your crops, your income..oh my god, if you go all indi and stuff you might starve to death, you wont have a pension and all that crap.
They are solely reliant on spinning this great lie to the terminally thick in this nation, and trust me, there are many Thicko McThicks believe that we wont get to keep the pound, believe they wont get a pension...Christ man, they way things are going none of us will live long enough to collect out pensions anyway....67 and rising.

That might be OK for Johnnie pen pusher but the grafters in this country..ie Brick layers, construction workers, Steel workers, etc, you know, the HARD grafters, the solid backbone of this country are usually out the game come 55 with back problems and or sciatica of some sort or another.

You Know, I used to get Angry with "The Nawbags", now i just look at them with pity. Pity how one can be so easily deceived by TPTB.

And where would the harm be in achieving those in a Federalised Union?

a reply to: Freeborn

None whatsoever...but I can't see that happening. I also don't see independence happening anytime soon.

I don't disagree with any of your post really and I like your summation of Salmond and Sturgeon.

I don't think the UK should underwrite anything. Surely if independence were gained it doesn't have to be some sort of falling out. Transition might be difficult and complex but we can deal with it together in an amicable way.

I have said in this thread my reasons for supporting independence...Whitehall, City of London, Monarchy, Westminster, House of Lords etc...

For me it is not about nationality just a chance for radical change. I know Salmond has offered a different vision but he may find things a little different come the following election.


This chance might never come again we should not throw it away.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Christ almighty...IT'S NOT ENGLANDS POUND. Get it,? got it? good.... Scotland has as much right to use the pound as England, NI or Wales...we helped build it. We will be keeping it.

All the No camp seem to focus on is The Pound...why, because they have nothing else other than the threat to take away your crops, your income..oh my god, if you go all indi and stuff you might starve to death, you wont have a pension and all that crap.
They are solely reliant on spinning this great lie to the terminally thick in this nation, and trust me, there are many Thicko McThicks believe that we wont get to keep the pound, believe they wont get a pension...Christ man, they way things are going none of us will live long enough to collect out pensions anyway....67 and rising.

That might be OK for Johnnie pen pusher but the grafters in this country..ie Brick layers, construction workers, Steel workers, etc, you know, the HARD grafters, the solid backbone of this country are usually out the game come 55 with back problems and or sciatica of some sort or another.

You Know, I used to get Angry with "The Nawbags", now i just look at them with pity. Pity how one can be so easily deceived by TPTB.

Correct. It's not England's pound, it's the U.K. pound.
If Scotland left the U.K. why do you think Scotland still has the right to continue using U.K. currency?

Even Zimbabwe had it's own currency after gaining independence. Are you saying what Zimbabwe did Scotland can't ?
Scots keep telling us how fantastic there economy is going to be if they vote for independence. Well if so, then float you own currency against your economy.