Leftest Agent Provocateurs Arrested by Murrieta Police!

a reply to: Gryphon66


Because I can walk through any city in America and find masses of people who arent living anything that resembles the American Dream. Because there are kids here in the United States who go hungry every night. Because it's not going to balance the budget but it makes sense to not keep making a bad situation worse. Because it's going to speed up the bankrupting of a system that's probably already to that point. Because there are laws that say they shouldn't be here. Because you aren't going to house any of them. Because you arent going to feed them out of your refrigerator. Because everyone is all for compassion when its not directly coming out of their pocket. Its so easy to make everyone pay for everything once you decide it's for "the greater good" isnt it? We can't prove it came out of our exact tax dollars so we aren't paying for it? The FEDERAL government is making decisions that people are going to have to deal with at a LOCAL level.

It's easy to say THESE kids. What about the couple hundred who come tomorrow? The day after that? They have been coming like that all YEAR. These are ONLY the ones they are catching. If they are OVERWHELMING the border patrol with women and children, who are the people they arent catching? THE ABLEBODIED MEN. The whole issue isnt about the children. Its about a literal flood of people coming across our borders that are gonna speed up our descent into chaos.

a reply to: rustyclutch

As I said, I don't mind a few of my tax dollars being diverted from wars and bank bailouts to help these kids, so yeah, if I had a choice between drones and fruit drinks ... I'd opt for the punch.

We're not going to get that option though, are we?

So what do we do with them, rusty? This is a real problem, not a theoretical one ... not one on paper. We've rounded these people up, and they're now in our custody. What do we do after we "ship them back" as the simple-minded suggestion goes ... where do we send them? Do we just dump them in Mexico? What if they're from Guatemala?

They're kids, one more time. And what's to keep them from turning around and coming right back? How do we stop them, permanently? What's the real world solution to all this, not simplistic, but a real solution.

I'd be glad to hear it.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: beezzer

And who is "THEY" Beezer ... who is "weaponizing" these kids? I'd like to know who you think that is.

I don't know.

You're talking about sacrifice, but when pressed to it, you aren't providing any examples of how we, as individual Americans, would be asked to sacrifice for these kids.

Actually, you brought up compassion. Still haven't told me what you are willing to give up.

I certainly don't mind diverting a few of my tax pennies from drones and anthrax and bailing out billionaire bankers to feeding and housing these kids for a while until we get things sorted out.

Oh. 'Kay.

And we're not talking about all kids that ever want to come here (that's a different issue), but these that are now in our care. What do we do with THEM? What is the Christian thing to do? What did Jesus say about how we treat children?

Jesus is way above my pay grade. I can only scratch the surface of His Glory. But I don't think that Jesus would make others suffer to benefit another.

What do you suggest we do with them, after we ship them home, to assure that they never come back?

Send them back. Build a fence. Start following the laws that are actually in place.

It'd be a start.

a reply to: Gryphon66

So you don't mind diverting a few dollars that could be spent on helping our disabled war vets. You dont mind diverting a few tax dollars from people who can't find jobs. You don't mind diverting money from senior citizens who worked their whole lives. You don't mind diverting money that my children may need for some crazy reason one day. How many tax dollars is a few? What do you pay in taxes every year? How many immigrants will that support? You forget your tax dollars need to cover the other liberal programs you already signed on to plus the debt we racked up already right? Tax dollars wont get us very far will they? I'm all for compassion and whatnot but lets start with the people who deserve it first.

The United States has become welfare for the world. We give handouts to everyone, and technically by all mathematical standards, are the poorest nation on earth. We are 18 trillion dollars in the hole. If your house was about to get foreclosed, you were on food stamps, had no car, and your electricity was about to get cut off....would you be inviting people over for barbecues? Entertaining houseguests? I applaud your compassion and sympathy and all of that other stuff but you need to put it into perspective. These people are going to need things. The things don't just come out of nowhere. Someone has to pay for them. Chances are there are american citizens who are in need of the same items and services. I personally am losing nothing, but my greater sensibilities and loyalty to my fellow citizen would rather see these things go to people whose families have lived and died here, or at least came the correct way.

ETA....You will only wander across a desert only to be turned around so many times before you find somewhere new to go to. I say we send em back to mexico. Thats where they crossed the border at. Mexico shouldnt be letting people flood through their country to cross our borders. That could be considered an act of war.

a reply to: beezzer

So, it's a phantom menace then that's hurling these kids against our gates? 'Kay. Sounds like Occam would suggest then that they're just kids and people trying to find a better life. If you come up with the hidden enemy, let me know.

YOU talked about sacrifice; I'd like to hear what YOU think either one of us are going to have to "give up" for these kids. I haven't claimed that there is going to be a sacrifice, YOU did. So tell me, what are we, you and me, regular Americans, going to have to give up for THESE kids now in custody.

Well, from what I've read from you on the site, you have seemed to be very clear on your knowledge of Jesus and his teachings. If an old heathern such as myself has to pull it out ... let's see now ...

Matthew 18:10: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."

Mark 9:42 : "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea."

Luke 12:33 : "Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys."

Matthew 25: 34-40

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

And there I rest this case.

Best all,

G

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: beezzer

So, it's a phantom menace then that's hurling these kids against our gates? 'Kay. Sounds like Occam would suggest then that they're just kids and people trying to find a better life. If you come up with the hidden enemy, let me know.

Your words, not mine. I simply stated that I didn't know. I didn't realize that it would give you license to fill in the blanks.

YOU talked about sacrifice; I'd like to hear what YOU think either one of us are going to have to "give up" for these kids. I haven't claimed that there is going to be a sacrifice, YOU did. So tell me, what are we, you and me, regular Americans, going to have to give up for THESE kids now in custody.

YOU brought up compassion. I asked what you are willing to sacrifice. Your non-answer though, speaks loudly.

Well, from what I've read from you on the site, you have seemed to be very clear on your knowledge of Jesus and his teachings. If an old heathern such as myself has to pull it out ... let's see now ...

Oh puh-lease. If you have any clue, then you'd realize the folly of your statement.

Matthew 18:10: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."

Mark 9:42 : "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea."

Luke 12:33 : "Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys."

Matthew 25: 34-40

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Nice bible quotes. So what are you going to pony up, since you are the compassionate one and it is for the children!

And there I rest this case.

Best all,

G

Gee-golly.

Thanks.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Sadly everyone isnt a christian and scripture has no bearing in this argument. The fact of the matter is they are breaking the law. The federal government should be using the money they are using to house and feed these people to secure the border. Its the LAW. If you want the help of people....breaking their laws as your first official act of business in the country doesnt sound like a good approach. They should respect our rules or keep it moving. The truth of the situation is none of your tax dollars are going to be diverted away from anyting. You are just going to pay more tax.

a reply to: rustyclutch

They (the government) can actually use this as an excuse to raise taxes now.

After all, it is for the children.

a reply to: beezzer

Come on Beezer, you're better than that, I chose to believe so.

You said the kids are being weaponized and sent against us. That is your statement and that requires someone or something to be weaponizing them and sending them against us. It's not me filling in any blanks for you, you said it.

I brought up compassion, YOU brought up sacrifice. I don't believe there is a sacrifice that any one of us is going to make on behalf of these kids (telling you that for the third time now). YOU are the one who claimed that there is a sacrifice to be made and now you're trying to hop and bounce out of telling me what it is? Why? That too speaks volumes.

I'm not any more compassionate than anyone else. Also, quite notably, I'm not a Christian. You are, by your own repeated testimony. Those verses are examples of what Jesus is said to have said about how we treat children and the less fortunate. It's YOUR Book and YOUR spiritual leader and savior who said it ... so don't shuffle it off on me. If you don't want to answer, or can't figure out how to square your political views with your religious ones, that's fine.



Willickers.

a reply to: rustyclutch

Yep, they're illegal immigrants. It's the law. The law says we have to do certain things for these people once we take them into custody. That is what is happening in Murrieta, or what should be happening.

We've established that. I know also that you consider the President to be breaking the law, usurping his authority, bringing on the tribulations or some such rot as well. I don't even want to debate that with you.

What I do want to hear, however, is your answer to "what do we do with the kids who are coming in." How do you deal with taking care of them until you can get them back to where you think they should go. Oh, and by the way, where should they go? Just across the border into Guatemala or El Salvador?

What is YOUR solution to the problem? How do we keep them out and make sure they never come back?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: beezzer

Come on Beezer, you're better than that, I chose to believe so.

'Kay. Thanks.

You said the kids are being weaponized and sent against us. That is your statement and that requires someone or something to be weaponizing them and sending them against us. It's not me filling in any blanks for you, you said it.

Yes, I believe the children are being used to violate the law. I don't know who. I can only speculate.

I brought up compassion, YOU brought up sacrifice. I don't believe there is a sacrifice that any one of us is going to make on behalf of these kids (telling you that for the third time now). YOU are the one who claimed that there is a sacrifice to be made and now you're trying to hop and bounce out of telling me what it is? Why? That too speaks volumes.

You brought up compassion, I brought up what are you willing to sacrifice.

I'm not any more compassionate than anyone else. Also, quite notably, I'm not a Christian. You are, by your own repeated testimony. Those verses are examples of what Jesus is said to have said about how we treat children and the less fortunate. It's YOUR Book and YOUR spiritual leader and savior who said it ... so don't shuffle it off on me. If you don't want to answer, or can't figure out how to square your political views with your religious ones, that's fine.

You know, it's funny. I authored a thread about Jesus and gays recently. Many bible quotes about how bad it is. I chose to ignore those quotes.

Guess I'm a real asshat now.

Willickers.

Ditto.


Fact is, these kids are here. They will be a drain on a weakened healthcare system. They will be a drain on our stressed welfare system.

Quo bono?

Who benefits?

Find that out and you'll have your answer as to who is behind all of this.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: rustyclutch

We've established that. I know also that you consider the President to be breaking the law, usurping his authority, bringing on the tribulations or some such rot as well. I don't even want to debate that with you.

Send them back to mexico. We send enough of them back to mexico where they are crossing the border and let them figure it out. Or they can keep trying till they die if they are too stubborn to do it the right way. The law is the law. Until someone changes the law it needs to be enforced. They are abusing our compassion plain and simple. The same compassion you are offering them is being refused to people who should be getting it. If unemployment was at 5% and we didnt have legions of people sleeping under bridges and there were now hiring signs up everywhere I would be all for it. The ones that are here obviously arent going anywhere. They are here. But this has to end. IMMEDIATELY. Should we just scrap the borders? Is that what you are implying? Should we just turn it into a free for all? How many is too many? Give me a number! Thats what people are protesting about. This is ONGOING. Not just something that happened last week.

a reply to: beezzer

So, you don't have anything in mind when you claim there will be sacrifices to be made, you just know that there will be vague generic sacrifices that we will all have to make to be certain that these kids that we have taken into custody now will be properly cared for and processed according to the laws of the United States.

Check.

You claim that there is someone or something behind these kids' coming across the border, using them as "weapons," but you can't or don't want to say who or what that is, or you only want to drop coy, mysterious hints as to who it might be.

Check.

You want to do anything but acknowledge what those verses say, what Jesus' words were in regard to how we should treat kids. You tried to throw it off on me, and now, you're trying to suggest that somehow you're being classified as an "asshat." It's not about any other posts that you've made, and you certainly aren't being classified that way by me. I'm not a Christian, and I don't put any stock in the Bible ...

... but YOU are, and YOU do.

What Jesus said about children is crystal clear. He said what we do for the least of these, we do for Him; not my words, not your words -- His.

a reply to: rustyclutch

Thanks for your answer.

I agree that there's no easy solution, but I just can't see that there's ANY solution in dumping them back into Mexico every 3 or 4 weeks.

Anyway, that's what I wanted to know.

Best,

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: beezzer

So, you don't have anything in mind when you claim there will be sacrifices to be made, you just know that there will be vague generic sacrifices that we will all have to make to be certain that these kids that we have taken into custody now will be properly cared for and processed according to the laws of the United States.

Check.

You spoke of compassion. I speak of the cost of that compassion.

You claim that there is someone or something behind these kids' coming across the border, using them as "weapons," but you can't or don't want to say who or what that is, or you only want to drop coy, mysterious hints as to who it might be.

Check.

Who benefits? If you want me to, I'll say it. Our government benefits. Especially if they can use this to raise taxes.

You want to do anything but acknowledge what those verses say, what Jesus' words were in regard to how we should treat kids. You tried to throw it off on me, and now, you're trying to suggest that somehow you're being classified as an "asshat." It's not about any other posts that you've made, and you certainly aren't being classified that way by me. I'm not a Christian, and I don't put any stock in the Bible ...

... but YOU are, and YOU do.

So I'm being lectured by an atheist on biblical verses that I have already said (in another thread) I have issues with. It would be hypocritical of me to be following biblical verses as they apply to children if I didn't follow biblical verses on homosexuality.

Go to church for a year then get back to me on that.

What Jesus said about children is crystal clear. He said what we do for the least of these, we do for Him; not my words, not your words -- His.

Yeah, I heard you.

Tell me, was Bush a puppet? Or is it just Obama?

Or are you actually going to hold the president responsible for his administrations actions?

a reply to: Gryphon66

Its not our job to find solutions for other countries. Bringing them in the country and dropping them off at the nearest shelter isnt a solution either. Sanction Mexico. We sanction everyone else. Fly military drones over their borders to patrol their side and ours. We do it to everyone else. Fire on people who get to close to the border. They did it to our border patrol. Sounds to me like you have more sympathy for the guy from another continent than the guy next door. They should fix their country and not come burden ours. If they all come here guess what....its just gonna turn into the place they left.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I'll ask you some questions I already know the answer to. If I'm starving and hungry, does that give me a right to break into your house and raid your fridge? Does it give me a right to send my children to break into your house and steal your food? What about the grocery store? Will I feel justified in my theft? Yes I might. Does it make it the right thing to do? No it doesn't. The people seeking to enter this country illegally are just as selfish as the people who don't want them here, only their selfishness isn't justified. They don't care about the cost to our economy or the debt and interest that our children are going to pay. They don't care about the rules. They want a better life and they want it now. Damn the cost to everyone else.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Of course they have every right to be there protesting. On that we can agree fully.
What they don't have the right to do is to break laws that conflict with their philosophy. They have no right to incite violence because they are "anti-borders" and "anti-government" in their views.
A certain minority of persons at any protest are going to be "rabble"---any protest. On that I think we would agree. To paint either side as rabble is just wrong.
And what is with wearing a mask to express opposition to the government? Trying to avoid NSA's facial recognition technology or what ?!!!! I didn't notice any masks among the Patriots who were there protesting the treatment of the illegal immigrants.

a reply to: beezzer

so let me get this straight;
our leaders, intentionally spread rumors relating to immigration, in the hopes of having large numbers of people migrating accross the border far and wide, in the hopes that, such an amount of people would cause a funding crisis in healthcare and welfare that taxes could be raised... all in the name of some vague cause that we mostly speculate about based off of out-of-context quotes of policy plans or think-tank-papers, or punditry/Op-Ed pieces?

a reply to: NonsensicalUserName

If you want to create a new system the easiest way is to collapse the old system. It's quite obvious there are large parts of the constitution they want to completely do away with and place severe limits on. It's not about taxes. None of this is speculation. If you think it is google free speech zones and you tell me if that isn't putting extreme limits on constitutional rights. If they will limit your right to protest, something horrible is around the corner. Or are you insinuating that our government hasn't conspired to do far more atrocious things than send illegal immigrants across their own borders?