One cannot believe in something that does not exist.

a reply to: ImaFungi

I haven't observe you remotely successfully refute anything . . . except to display your own lack of awareness of facts and logic.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Hm, that sort of response is not going to cut it, I now understand what you are, thanks for trying.

originally posted by: TheSubversiveOne
One cannot believe in something that does not exist.

When one says he believes in God, it is my belief that he doesn’t tell the truth. I will argue that believing involves believing in real things, and believing in things that have never been introduced to the senses, is impossible.

First, no one believes in the great deity The Marnichuk, for this is the first time anyone has mentioned this deity. Only now, after this deity has been mentioned, can it be believed in. In other words, believing in a deity presupposes that one has at least heard about the deity, that the idea of it has been brought to the senses. But at this point, because all that exists of The Marnichuk is its name and the assertion that it is a deity, the only things that can be believed in The Marnichuk’s regard are what have been presented to the senses, namely, the name “The Marnichuk” and the assertion made by me that it is a deity. So far, these are real tangibles that can be believed in.

If I was to go on and assert that The Marnichuk is the puppeteer of all human beings and the creator of the universe, can someone then believe in The Marnichuk? They can say they do, but still, what they are actually believing is my story, the words present to their senses, bolstered by their own thoughts.

If I was to continue and assert that someone once met The Marnichuk and had a conversation with it, and the great deity told him to enjoy a life of pleasure, people might then believe in The Marnichuk and live their life in such a manner. Of course, believing in the Marnichuk as The Marnichuk is still impossible, because at no point was the actual deity present and accounted for. Instead, what they believe in is my story, perhaps solidified by their own credulity.

If the story caught wind and on top of it was built thousands of years of lore and poetry, and it was all canonized into one great book such as the Bible, people would read it, teach it and study it from all angles. From this study and consideration, one might then say “I believe in The Marnichuk”, and continue to pray to what he believes is the actual deity. But realistically, what he believes in is the lore and its commentary, and what he prays to is this belief, or in other words, himself. The teachings and study of the cannon and its commentary isn’t any study about the actual nature of the deity, but about the nature of a literary character of a book. Such is all theology.

Until a deity is present to the senses, it is impossible to be believed in. And until that time, all that is to be believed in are books and commentary. Theism is not a belief in any God, but a belief that the canons, the arguments and the commentaries are true.

Looks like someone doesn't understand what 'Faith' is.

a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

"One cannot believe in something that does not exist."

Then our current understanding of Mathematics, complex numbers in particular must present you rather a conundrum.

Existence of anything is probably more to do with one's perception of such given that we most lightly inhabit a holographic universe. Otherwise how could we explain notions such as love and hate or good or evil? They don't actually physically exist but are responsible rather a large percentage of humanities dilemmas and problems.

originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: BO XIAN

Hm, that sort of response is not going to cut it, I now understand what you are, thanks for trying.

Don't let him off the hook! Keep pushing for a proper answer!

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

"One cannot believe in something that does not exist."

Then our current understanding of Mathematics, complex numbers in particular must present you rather a conundrum.

Existence of anything is probably more to do with one's perception of such given that we most lightly inhabit a holographic universe. Otherwise how could we explain notions such as love and hate or good or evil? They don't actually physically exist but are responsible rather a large percentage of humanities dilemmas and problems.

According to the OP if I understand correctly, he would argue that our current understanding of Mathematics, complex number in particular, is a tautological understanding. If there is nothing in reality to back up the math then its self consistent rules and numerical symbols than it is exactly that, which is believed in. Like wise, when someone says they believe in God, and this is pretty precisely the OPs point, they are not believing in something they have knowledge of, or have physically seen in reality, but from word of mouth of lore and scripture, would be akin to the 'math' they believe in.

However, I understand the belief in God is an interpretation of reality. So they would argue, though they do not see the creator itself, the reality they do sense, to them, dictates, to them, that it is the work of an intelligent creator. Therefore they are interpreting 'the math', the symbol, in this case, the physical reality, and they are believing that it has an unseen, unknowable, undetectable source. Which is 'an unprovable 'leap of faith''. The funny part comes in when the religion of God, evolved into the essence of, as a result of this inprovability, one of 'A God does exist, did make the universe, and what he cares about more than anything else is that 'YOU' believe he exists, I believe he exists so I am good and will get a reward, because I think he exists, I want him to exist, and I know he exists, and you said that you dont think he exists, but I know he exists, and I know more than anything all he wants is for you to have faith that he exists...so you can quite plainly see that I am right and I win".

Science can never physically prove the existence of God. Science can not disporve the existence of God either. Science is the study of finite particles and matter.

But there is one thing that proves the existence of God. The problem here on this form is that if i state that science wont accept that there exists a infinite. People say that science actually do Accept the existence of a infinite. But if i state that there exists a infinite you People state that science will not confirm the existence of a infinite.

This means that science will Accept the existence of a infinite but wont confrim it. Because there is no way they can.

But if the infinite is accepted to exist than there is no doubt that there is a creator present as well. Because the infinite is the only true and absolute existing constant. That means its timeline is absolute constant compare to Our finite timeline. That means if the infinite is thee absolute consatnt we know it can not change randomly on its own. We also know that Our finite universe dosent randomly change/expand. There is always a reason that can explain its expansion/change. That is what we use Our scientists for.

a reply to: spy66

Science can never physically prove the existence of God. Science can not disporve the existence of God either. Science is the study of finite particles and matter.

Maybe if God were something more than an amorphous abstract value - well, more of a placeholder for what would otherwise be an intellectual void good for little more than representing something we suspect might be able to fit in there at some point if we tilt our head and squint a little - we would have more success in that area. But alas, beauty is in the mind...

However, if the day comes when you can effectively prove beyond any doubt to an unbiased jury through established scientific methods and no other that there is an almighty being who is responsible for the day-to-day condition of this universe and the fate of our souls, I will admit to you that I believe. That's not to say I will pledge my allegiance to such an entity (that would be determined at the next stage), but I will believe.

What would it take to convince you that you are wrong, in the event that you are in fact wrong?

a reply to: AfterInfinity

What would it take to convince you that you are wrong, in the event that you are in fact wrong?

What would it take convince me that i am wrong? A lot actually. But if you have a solid argument that cant be argued against according to my knowledge in any way. I am open.

a reply to: spy66

What would it take convince me that i am wrong? A lot actually. But if you have a solid argument that cant be argued against according to my knowledge in any way. I am open.

It would have to be quite the exemplary argument to convince someone of your staunch position. I'm afraid I don't have an argument of that caliber, but if I happen across one, I'll be sure to let you know. In fact, I'll just message it to you on here before posting it on the forums for everyone to pick through.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: spy66

What would it take convince me that i am wrong? A lot actually. But if you have a solid argument that cant be argued against according to my knowledge in any way. I am open.

It would have to be quite the exemplary argument to convince someone of your staunch position. I'm afraid I don't have an argument of that caliber, but if I happen across one, I'll be sure to let you know. In fact, I'll just message it to you on here before posting it on the forums for everyone to pick through.

I know you dont. That is the Whole Clue to all these types of topics where God is involved.

Peaple must Reach their own conclusions based on heir own knowledge and understanding. Nothing else will do it.

a reply to: spy66

I know you dont. That is the Whole Clue to all these types of topics where God is involved.

Oh, I think there's an answer. But I'd compare it to putting a Calculus book in front of a squirrel. Just because the squirrel is too busy thinking about acorns, and wouldn't understand the concepts of calculus even if it focused for more than three seconds, doesn't mean the book is full of BS.

I think it's very possible that someday we will find the answer. Might not even be us - could be whoever is left after we've evolved several more times, hundreds of trillions of years down the road, looooooooooong after the internet and everyone using it has faded to little more than a few terabytes of data locked inside a dusty hard drive left to rot somewhere. Until then, enjoy being alive.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

Off course there is an answer. But at present time each person has his/ her own answer. The answer we all posess can not be shard between us. Because we dont shar comon knowledge and understanding of the Field of science or calculus.

It is the system we are groomed to serve that makes it so. We are not thought to understand the existence of a God. We are thought to understand the system of finite and how it works. If peopel dont understand this the Whole topic is mute from the start. Because we are using wrong knowledge to argue and move forward. If this dosent change it dosent matter who comes up With the truth in the future. No one will believe him or her any way. Not even if their numbers add up.

a reply to: spy66

It is the system we are groomed to serve that makes it so. We are not thought to understand the existence of a God. We are thought to understand the system of finite and how it works. If peopel dont understand this the Whole topic is mute from the start. Because we are using wrong knowledge to argue and move forward. If this dosent change it dosent matter who comes up With the truth in the future. No one will believe him or her any way.

I'll just let you continue thinking that. It's not like you're in office, so there's no need to be concerned over your questionable logic. Carry on.

a reply to: spy66

Define the God you believe exists.

Is it a being outside the universe?

Is it a personal mind, like you are a personal mind?

Meaning, one person, that acts on his will?

Has God, and his mind, and his will, and his memory, always (in the most literal way) existed?

As Einstein asked semi jestingly, 'did God have a choice', my honest answer would be, yes and no.

Just as humans have a choice in style, of computers and car, there are also limits, probabilities, and determinations. That is to say, if we want to get from point A to point B on the ground most efficiently, after exhausting most of our abilities, it has been found that 'the car' works quite well, so that is kind of determination, if we denied this notion and abandoned the car for bikes, our way of living would be vastly different, but because we have some abstract goal, of living the way we do, we have no choice but to utilize the possible car, and than we have our reletively minor deviations of brands and networks and parts,and the same idea for the computer, and building, and phone, etc. I would suggest the same must be true for any God.

Regardless of any time in which God has existed, or will exist, he would only have at his disposal the existence and limits of his mind, the existence and limits of his body, and the existence and limits of his surroundings. Therefore like humans, if God exists, he has a choice in what he wishes to create, and also he doesnt. He doesnt in the sense of, if he wants to create a vast realm in which consciousnesses can come into existence, there are a limited way in which to do that...though lol, of course the jokes on me, because the term limited is quite laughable when considering how many life forms exist in a mile radius on earth, let alone a nation, let alone the world, let alone a galaxy. But the point being, if there is a God, it would be in a fractal like similar circumstance we are. If there is a God it would have to be in a 'we make computers, that are fake closed systems, or aquariums, so God made the universe which is like a computer or aquarium', but still then why would you propose that there is only one God, only one universe? And if God didnt have a choice really, isnt it no different then nature not having a choice, nature working through itself to do what can be done? Surely parents are responsible in a God like way for creating the lives of their offspring, but it is also their nature which forces this upon them.

In the end, there is no proof that the most important thing God expects of his creation is that they simply believe in him, there is no evidence that god cares that you believe in him or not, there is no evidence that god is not evil, there is no evidence that god itself is far from human or animal, meaning a type of perfect AI/computer, and there is no evidence god exists, so if its not clear, what im saying is there is no evidence god even exists, let alone the one you or others in their books, believe in.

a reply to: ImaFungi

I certenly dont agree With you on any of you arguments.

First of all. If God is thee "infinite" Whiche is the claim. Than God has not disappeared. The infinite can not disappear ever. Where would it disappear to if it takes up all Space possible?

Since Our universe had a beginning as a very small singularity or started out as a finite size. I know for a fact that there is a wast void outside the singularity. I also know that it took a finite time to form the singularity. Because it is not being compressed into a singularity any more it is expanding.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: ImaFungi

I certenly dont agree With you on any of you arguments.

First of all. If God is thee "infinite" Whiche is the claim. Than God has not disappeared. The infinite can not disappear ever. Where would it disappear to if it takes up all Space possible?

Since Our universe had a beginning as a very small singularity or started out as a finite size. I know for a fact that there is a wast void outside the singularity. I also know that it took a finite time to form the singularity. Because it is not being compressed into a singularity any more it is expanding.

Ok, so universe had beginning, very small singularity, or so some scientists claim; Where does your God fit in?

Can you please define the characteristics of the God you believe in?

Is it one mind? A personal mind, with feelings and thoughts and opinions and moods?

Can you define what the existence of God, means to me, how does it affect me? How do you know what this God thinks of me, or wants of me? How do you know God cares about humans in any way at all?

a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

Well all the sights and sounds and sensations I feel in everyday life besides the ones that are electronically stimulated by illegal technologies I see the evidence of god everywhere and in everything. The question then becomes who is this God of Death?

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: ImaFungi

I certenly dont agree With you on any of you arguments.

First of all. If God is thee "infinite" Whiche is the claim. Than God has not disappeared. The infinite can not disappear ever. Where would it disappear to if it takes up all Space possible?

Since Our universe had a beginning as a very small singularity or started out as a finite size. I know for a fact that there is a wast void outside the singularity. I also know that it took a finite time to form the singularity. Because it is not being compressed into a singularity any more it is expanding.

Ok, so universe had beginning, very small singularity, or so some scientists claim; Where does your God fit in?

Can you please define the characteristics of the God you believe in?

Is it one mind? A personal mind, with feelings and thoughts and opinions and moods?

Can you define what the existence of God, means to me, how does it affect me? How do you know what this God thinks of me, or wants of me? How do you know God cares about humans in any way at all?

I view it like this:

The infinite must be absolute.

The infinite must take up all Space possible.

The first Dimension of void/Space must have been absolute empty of finite. Only a absolute emty void of Space can be absolute infinite and take up all Space possible. Finite can not take up all Space possible. Finite will only take up a finite amount of Space.

The singularity which is Our universe only takes up a finite amount of Space. It dosent take up all Space possible. The Space within the singularity is not infinite it dosent take up all Space possible. It is expanding.

There must be a void that is absolute empty and infinite out side the singularity at some point. The absolute infinite must exist for finite to exist. Because finite occupy Space. All finites are 3D. And therefor can not take up all Space possible.

When the infinite is a absolute empty void of Space. It means there are no finite present within this Space. That means there is no finite time within this absolute empty void of infinite Space. That means there is only a absolute constant timeline present. There must exist a consatnt timeline for there to be a finite timeline.

Even if finite poped out of no where into finite existece. That no where would have to exist for the finite to pop into finite existence. Because all finites are 3D and therefor occupy Space.

When the infintie is a absolute empty void of Space and is absolute and takes up all Space possible. That would make that infinite void of Space a absolute constant With a absolute constant timeline. That means nothing just popes into finite existence randomly. Not if the timeline is a absolute constant.

The absolute infinite void of Space is thee God. And it must exist.

a reply to: spy66

"The absolute infinite void of Space is thee God. And it must exist."

So this is what you mean when you say God exists? That is all the quality you give the word 'God'?

I viewed the word God to mean; Intelligent creator or intelligent creator of the universe.

If you want to take the word 'absolute outer space' and say, that terms = God. And then say (absolute outer space exists) God exists. I am forced to agree with you.

I disagree that finite came into existence or from nothing. From my highest understanding I am compelled to believer that 'a finite quantity of something' HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. In some way. And the 'changing' of the finite something, occurs infinitely, meaning changing = time, infinite changing = infinite time. Which also means there are potentially infinite quality. Quality for example being how from only 100 or so basic building block elements, can be made near infinite different life forms. The quantity of varity of original quantity is 100 or so, but than the quantity and patterns and arrangements and additions and subtractions and motions, and inherent physical qualities are much greater quantity that 100. Still finite though.