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One cannot believe in something that does not exist.

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posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 01:11 AM
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originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: ImaFungi

It is illogical . . .

and totally unfounded in human experience

to find

ORDER

spontaneously jumping out of chaos.

Yet you fantasize and pretend otherwise. The lack of logic is clearly and firmly in

YOUR lap.


Thank you for answering my challenge. What do you think of my argument; it is impossible for 'order' in nature not to exist,?

I propose a sort of logical axiom, which states that the only possibility of an arrangement of the totality of reality, is one in which 'that which composes the totality of reality', is related in some very fundamental way, as in mainly 'it is that essence, that substance, that material, which has always existed, and always will, it is impossible for all parts and portions, quantities and qualities of reality to be 'completely unrelated'.

Given that statement; I believe because of this fundamental mandatory relation, that it would be impossible for the totality of parts of reality, to not be arranged in a relationship with itself in which from an inner perspective, it could be invented a word termed 'order' to describe its formation.

So, If there is a finite quantity of essence/substance/material/stuff that exists in total, that always changes (quantity of amount existent, quality of the quantity is that it changes and this is time (and space), and quality also includes which might be closely related to time and space and quantity (meaning portion, size, shape, local area) are the behaviors which are exhibited between and as in alterable activities known as 'the laws of physics', which are really attempting to best describe the existence of the quantities and qualities of reality, that means as I have stated above and await your response of, about the 'order' aspect of your statement, that that finite quantity of essence/substance/material/stuff that exists in total and that always changes, is fated to be in some type of formation which an observer would be able to call order, without the need for an intelligent creator.

I look forward to another potential statement of yours in your proof of God, as this may be good for us both.




posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 01:27 AM
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a reply to: ImaFungi


You steal a bit of reality from the Biblical record . . .

pretend you can strip it of it's origin

and THEN

claim it as a justification for your bias that otherwise has no foundation whatsoever.

Some folks might think that's clever.

I think it's absurd.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 01:50 AM
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originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: ImaFungi


You steal a bit of reality from the Biblical record . . .

pretend you can strip it of it's origin

and THEN

claim it as a justification for your bias that otherwise has no foundation whatsoever.

Some folks might think that's clever.

I think it's absurd.


What part did I steal from the bible?



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 01:57 AM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

Where do you think order came from, really?

What inherent in chaos produced order?

Sheesh.

Sigh.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 02:56 AM
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One cannot believe in something that does not exist.

When one says he believes in God, it is my belief that he doesn’t tell the truth. I will argue that believing involves believing in real things, and believing in things that have never been introduced to the senses, is impossible.

First, no one believes in the great deity The Marnichuk, for this is the first time anyone has mentioned this deity. Only now, after this deity has been mentioned, can it be believed in. In other words, believing in a deity presupposes that one has at least heard about the deity, that the idea of it has been brought to the senses. But at this point, because all that exists of The Marnichuk is its name and the assertion that it is a deity, the only things that can be believed in The Marnichuk’s regard are what have been presented to the senses, namely, the name “The Marnichuk” and the assertion made by me that it is a deity. So far, these are real tangibles that can be believed in.

If I was to go on and assert that The Marnichuk is the puppeteer of all human beings and the creator of the universe, can someone then believe in The Marnichuk? They can say they do, but still, what they are actually believing is my story, the words present to their senses, bolstered by their own thoughts.

If I was to continue and assert that someone once met The Marnichuk and had a conversation with it, and the great deity told him to enjoy a life of pleasure, people might then believe in The Marnichuk and live their life in such a manner. Of course, believing in the Marnichuk as The Marnichuk is still impossible, because at no point was the actual deity present and accounted for. Instead, what they believe in is my story, perhaps solidified by their own credulity.

If the story caught wind and on top of it was built thousands of years of lore and poetry, and it was all canonized into one great book such as the Bible, people would read it, teach it and study it from all angles. From this study and consideration, one might then say “I believe in The Marnichuk”, and continue to pray to what he believes is the actual deity. But realistically, what he believes in is the lore and its commentary, and what he prays to is this belief, or in other words, himself. The teachings and study of the cannon and its commentary isn’t any study about the actual nature of the deity, but about the nature of a literary character of a book. Such is all theology.

Until a deity is present to the senses, it is impossible to be believed in. And until that time, all that is to be believed in are books and commentary. Theism is not a belief in any God, but a belief that the canons, the arguments and the commentaries are true.


Please answer me one question:

What is with electricity ? Does it exists ? You cant see it. that is a fact. Everything you see from electricity is only an effect, but you dont see the cause.
All that you can do is to prove that it exists.

Its same with the God. You cant see him, but you can see his effect. The proof is in your mirror. (well its a weak proof because you see only a fragment of the truth). You Will need to see the mirror image of every person in this world to have a small hint of the god.
then your next question will be, "if god exists why were there wars and suffering and (insert here your bad experience)" the answer is simple.
Its your ego that is showing you the world you see. but what is you if your ego has the power to show you all theese bad things ?




Give me one piece of proof/statement/evidence besides the bible that you know that this universe was intelligently created?

You are assuming that the universe is intelligently created ? but what is universe ? what is it that would convince you that the universe is intelligenlty created ?
What does need to happen so that you would change your mind ? change your mind ? change your mind ? change your mind ?

Logical answer to what/where it shall happen simply, is where you put your belief in : "Scientists, TV, Newspaper"
And that means you are withdraving the belief in god and putting it in the above statements.


If you want to experiment and to see the proof of god, it could be shown to you. You will need to do following:

"For the next 30 days, go every night to bed and stop thinking for few minutes untill you are ready to fall asleep. then ask a question "please show me evidence of god, that i will understand" 3 times."
And you will get it. Have fun.
edit on 20/6/2014 by Hombre because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 03:04 AM
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a reply to: BO XIAN

I already stated my case as to why it seems as if it is impossible for there not to be order of some kind. Even 10000x more chaos then exists now, it would have to exist in some way, and for it to exist at all, it will be related to itself fundamentally, therefore interact with itself according to the nature or laws of its existence, there fore there will be some type of order.

Something I meant to try and express before, is that, there is no way you can make a statement that suggests its likely a God existed, and then created the universe, you can only rely on argument from ignorance. Any way you attempt to conceptualize how God existed and what existed along side him for eternity maybe, and then how he crafted a universe as a closed system of sorts, you will need to resort too 'well you just dont and cant know because Gods too smart/powerful/mysterious/secretive/sly and noone can know what he was doing before the universe, or how an entity can exist and be conscious for infinite eternal time in a past sense, and noone knows what hes made of, or what he does to ensure the universe continues working properly, or if his assistant knocks over a table the universe could just disappear in a second, there arent even any theories or thoughts are arguments for these answers. There is only 'I know God exists because I feel he does or I think he does", I know this is not perfect logic saying; I know how many crazy things people can make up and imagine and think from mental challenged people to compulsive liers who believe their lies to generally psychotic people, there fore the evidence for belief in God seems lacking, and I know people can make up crazy things and believe them, and the existence of an intelligent designer for starters but ones with thousands of rules some people know he demands them to follow, is a crazy thing, so this could be something that people are wrong about. I would just like to see more evidence or an attempt at a logical proof of how it would be theoretically possible for a being to exist for infinite eternal time in the past dimension of time and be conscious of it, and how its possible to exist as something, and utilize a potentially massive portion of the realm you exist in, or if something fundamentally different, where and how does that come into existence, to create a seemingly closed system that is incredibly detailed and pretty close to continuos. I guess there might be a chance we are in a computer program of some kind... but theres just so much freaking detail it makes it seem not likely. The amount of information contained in the atoms in a million year old rock, or a finger nail, or a lady bug, or a germ, and that can only be in the area of 1 foot, out of an entire planet, out of an entire solar system, galaxy, universe all that information churning away, from a seemingly long period of time, the kind of machine that would be generating the universe would have to be tremendous, beyond beyond tremendous, and for it to be uninterrupted by the outside, I dont know... It just doesnt seem like thats what this reality is or about. I wish it was, though there being a God would be weird, I would prefer that scenario.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 03:14 AM
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a reply to: TheSubversiveOne
Belief and doubt go hand in hand.
If someone were to tell you they are going to jack in their job, you may doubt it is true, you might not believe them. When they do jack in their job, all doubt and belief dissolve.
It is amazing how many beliefs are held which are not true but go uninvestgated.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 04:04 AM
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originally posted by: TheSubversiveOne
One cannot believe in something that does not exist.

When one says he believes in God, it is my belief that he doesn’t tell the truth.


When you say 'doesn't tell the truth', that implies he is lying and actually doesn't believe in God. I'm not sure why you believe you are any kind of philosopher if you believe that then equals God does or does not exist.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 08:05 AM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

At my age, I tend not to read unparagraphed walls of text.

And, I'm not finding most of your posts sufficiently logically attractive to read anyway.

Cheers.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 08:18 AM
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The truth is always there regardless of beliefs.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:28 AM
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a reply to: BO XIAN




No. You haven't refuted my perspective, at all.

You have flattered your biases and presumptions, assumptions.

I've found in His relationship with me . . . that He's the same as He reveals Himself to be in His Word and in nature.

One added thing is that I've found He does not enjoy formula kinds of relating. That's evident in His Word but not explicitly. Even His own formulae in the Old Testament, He could readily alter with someone like Abraham, Job, others.

He likes a dynamic, moment by moment dialogue, a dance as a kind of RELATIONSHIP.

Of course, TRUST of Him and His Loving Nature and His determination to do 'His kids' good is also a high priority with Him.

I anticipate you hostility to my answers above but that will have to be tough tacos.


Your hostility towards my views were apparent from the get-go. So tough tacos. Of course, you offered nothing more than your assumptions and biases, and now also your hypocrisy.

How have I not refuted your argument? Simply saying I haven't doesn't make it so. But reason is usually lost on certain people, rather than face the consequence of it.

You think you can speak for God and outline his modus operandi for me. I think you have no fathomable clue. I mean capitalizing every third word to give weight to your empty statements simply doesn't work for me. But thanks for trying.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:34 AM
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a reply to: uncommitted




When you say 'doesn't tell the truth', that implies he is lying and actually doesn't believe in God. I'm not sure why you believe you are any kind of philosopher if you believe that then equals God does or does not exist.


I don't understand your point. I sense an argument is in there somewhere yet it does not reveal itself.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:37 AM
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a reply to: Hombre

You can't see God but you can see his effects?

Simple answer: We cannot see his effects.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 11:11 AM
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a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

Some things take eyes to see and ears to hear.

The RELIGION OF SCIENTISM folks rarely have such, it appears.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 12:04 PM
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a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

Then I apologize for misunderstanding.

Yes, those ideas are my own beliefs formed by my own life experiences. In my youth I didn't really believe in god and felt pretty much the same as you explained in the OP. Where was the proof? After I had a NDE my attitude shifted, I realized there's proof all around, my idea of proof anyway. (I'm not speaking in a religious sense either, this is spiritual)



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 12:54 PM
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a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

S&F OP. I so enjoyed your thread, I thought I'd take a stab at this exercise in debate and logic. For the record - TSO has been a part of ATS as long as I have - and I don't think it's nice to call him a troll in his own thread! What a joke! It's his thread. Dear Goddess, help me...
(not be so mother-ish on the boards!
)



When one says he believes in God, it is my belief that he doesn’t tell the truth. I will argue that believing involves believing in real things, and believing in things that have never been introduced to the senses, is impossible.


I think it is a more fair assumption to say "we don't know". Rather than settling upon absolutes. The duality of our existence is not want for many shades of gray. It is our inability to know that gives rise to faith.

As to your example of creating archetypes and anthropomorphizing them... this is a technique taught in many belief sets. I don't hold the same (and I'm searching for the right word) disregard - towards our idealizations of higher idea's/morals/lessons within stories - that are represented in archetypes.

I find them very important, and intricate to human nature. Whether a certain person believes in the actuality of that archetype - or just hold value in the lessons they teach - either way - I argue they are important to individual people, and entire communities of people.

CdT



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 01:06 PM
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a reply to: Jennyfrenzy




Then I apologize for misunderstanding.

Yes, those ideas are my own beliefs formed by my own life experiences. In my youth I didn't really believe in god and felt pretty much the same as you explained in the OP. Where was the proof? After I had a NDE my attitude shifted, I realized there's proof all around, my idea of proof anyway. (I'm not speaking in a religious sense either, this is spiritual)


I too apologize. It's easy to imagine that because someone attacks our beliefs, we too are attacked.

It is indeed the proof we believe in in the end.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 01:10 PM
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a reply to: CirqueDeTruth




I think it is a more fair assumption to say "we don't know". Rather than settling upon absolutes. The duality of our existence is not want for many shades of gray. It is our inability to know that gives rise to faith.

As to your example of creating archetypes and anthropomorphizing them... this is a technique taught in many belief sets. I don't hold the same (and I'm searching for the right word) disregard - towards our idealizations of higher idea's/morals/lessons within stories - that are represented in archetypes.


It seems that such archetypes as you put them, may perhaps have a functional component. You're right to imply that removing these as if they were bandaids would be dangerous. The best we can ever hope for is to show that they are unnecessary as structures of absolute authority, through which we must, without choice, organize the entirety of humanity.

Good thinking.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 01:15 PM
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originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: ImaFungi

At my age, I tend not to read unparagraphed walls of text.

And, I'm not finding most of your posts sufficiently logically attractive to read anyway.

Cheers.



Its logical to think an illogical person would find my logic illogical.

Well I believe I semi sufficiently refuted your 'existence of order = God argument', so do you have another logical argument, that expresses how it is possible for a reality to exist and a God to exist and then a God to create their own reality?

Start with how a God can possibly exist; is it logically possible there is no reality beyond God, or does God exist in his own universe, and did he create that too? And you suppose God has always existed and therefore has always been conscious, or did God start out as a baby?
edit on 20-6-2014 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 01:37 PM
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a reply to: TheSubversiveOne
Everything imaginable exist. Just because it is not here now or in your face does not mean it is not somewhere. Life is a journey to find that which you claim does not exist.




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