One cannot believe in something that does not exist.

One cannot believe in something that does not exist.

When one says he believes in God, it is my belief that he doesn’t tell the truth. I will argue that believing involves believing in real things, and believing in things that have never been introduced to the senses, is impossible.

First, no one believes in the great deity The Marnichuk, for this is the first time anyone has mentioned this deity. Only now, after this deity has been mentioned, can it be believed in. In other words, believing in a deity presupposes that one has at least heard about the deity, that the idea of it has been brought to the senses. But at this point, because all that exists of The Marnichuk is its name and the assertion that it is a deity, the only things that can be believed in The Marnichuk’s regard are what have been presented to the senses, namely, the name “The Marnichuk” and the assertion made by me that it is a deity. So far, these are real tangibles that can be believed in.

If I was to go on and assert that The Marnichuk is the puppeteer of all human beings and the creator of the universe, can someone then believe in The Marnichuk? They can say they do, but still, what they are actually believing is my story, the words present to their senses, bolstered by their own thoughts.

If I was to continue and assert that someone once met The Marnichuk and had a conversation with it, and the great deity told him to enjoy a life of pleasure, people might then believe in The Marnichuk and live their life in such a manner. Of course, believing in the Marnichuk as The Marnichuk is still impossible, because at no point was the actual deity present and accounted for. Instead, what they believe in is my story, perhaps solidified by their own credulity.

If the story caught wind and on top of it was built thousands of years of lore and poetry, and it was all canonized into one great book such as the Bible, people would read it, teach it and study it from all angles. From this study and consideration, one might then say “I believe in The Marnichuk”, and continue to pray to what he believes is the actual deity. But realistically, what he believes in is the lore and its commentary, and what he prays to is this belief, or in other words, himself. The teachings and study of the cannon and its commentary isn’t any study about the actual nature of the deity, but about the nature of a literary character of a book. Such is all theology.

Until a deity is present to the senses, it is impossible to be believed in. And until that time, all that is to be believed in are books and commentary. Theism is not a belief in any God, but a belief that the canons, the arguments and the commentaries are true.

a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

I don't believe the Roman Empire ever existed. All we have are books and texts from old people claiming it, no one has seen the Roman Empire.

People continually believe in things that don't exist, they believe in the solidity of the Stock Market or the value of money. We believe in Society yet society will abandon us in a heartbeat if things get tough. We believe we have a good nation yet the only reason that is true is because we compare it against the worst ones. You need to compare it against a perfect nation, not ones that are all screwed up, like most of the industrialized nations in the world are.

We believe in things that do not really exist every day. Believing in god is probably the least problematic of our beliefs. Religion on the other hand can be plagued with deceit.

Deceit runs this country and we are so tied to it that we cannot even see it tangled in our everyday lives. It exists in all sciences and religions, also in all economies. Belief in god is not nearly as bad as believing in deceit.

a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

If one 'believes' then one does not 'know' for sure.
To 'believe' in something one has not experienced it first hand, one has been told, read or heard about it.

If you saw a green fairy at the bottom of your garden, would you believe there were fairies or would you know there were fairies?

One cannot believe in something that does not exist.

Then are we fooling ourselves when we believe we love someone? Love doesn't actually exist and it cannot present its self to humanity. It's just a product of the mind.

Right?

Really there are no things existing but there is a belief that there are things.
"Atoms are not things". Werner Heisenberg.

a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

One cannot believe in something that does not exist.

Wrong.
Plenty of people believe in things that don't exist.
Just because they shouldn't believe in something doesn't mean that they can't.

This doesn't really make any sense. Kids believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy don't they? Or are they lying?

a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

Marnichuk comes from your mind and does not have any evidence at all of visitation here.

Those labeled as the GOD(s) who are said to of made man in "their" image either Soul/Spirit/Internal Energy or Flesh image or both, even if believed by some to be only myth have evidence of their presence and activities...

Marnichuk does not.

Do you feel MARDUK was/is a real being OP? If not how is it that so much data is related to he and the family and continuously passed to the today human psyche?

originally posted by: TheSubversiveOne
believing involves believing in real things, and believing in things that have never been introduced to the senses, is impossible.

According to your requirement - people CAN believe in things that aren't real. The belief effects the emotions and that translates to a tangible 'sense' stimulus.

That being said ... most of the world believes in things that aren't real. The fact that they believe in myths; folklore; organized religious rhetoric; lies told by 'prophets' and 'seers' etc etc doesn't negate the fact that they do believe.

a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

When one says he believes in God, it is my belief that he doesn’t tell the truth. I will argue that believing involves believing in real things, and believing in things that have never been introduced to the senses, is impossible.

So I believe in God and you think I'm lying?
Then stop worrying about it so much.

a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

You really should start studying comparative mythology, comparative mysticism, comparative religion. Take some classes or just do some independent learning for a few years. Start with Joseph Campbell. Then come back and make some good threads. Just a suggestion.

a reply to: TheSubversiveOne
we really have no idea what gods people may have made contact with people thousands of years ago, I don't believe they were so ignorant they didn't have a clue.

To believe or not believe still requires a subject to believe or not believe in.

Everything we know is knowledge passed down.

a reply to: TheSubversiveOne
The individual believes that it is an individual so it then believes that there are 'other things' beside itself. This is the first belief which starts the belief in 'things'. There is no individual - reality is one seamless whole

The only one that does not have to be believed is present eternally so gets overlooked in favour of that which isn't. Looking for something outside this moment can never be found which keeps one believing in all sorts of things that do not exist.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

The imagination is a beautiful thing, we imagine all sorts of things then we create them.

It is written we were made in gods image,maybe we are the result of gods imagination.

originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: Itisnowagain

The imagination is a beautiful thing, we imagine all sorts of things then we create them.

It is written we were made in gods image,maybe we are the result of gods imagination.

Who imagined what?

The image is always present but is constantly changing. Is any 'thing' apart from that?

YOU cannot believe in something that does not exist, YOU have never been exposed to the metaphysical and therefore YOU do not believe in it.
Dozens of members here have seen and thus believe, dozens more believe without having seen at all.

There, fixed that for ya.

How many of you here believe in time?

Does it exist?

How do you quantify it?

How and when did it begin?

When does it end?

The whole point of "believing" is to take a leap of "faith" that something is true. People "believe" in a certain, say, economics theory, even though it has never been adequately tested in the real world - it is just in the realm of the mind, an idea.

As to believing in a deity, here is the definition of the word "belief":


be·lief
biˈlēf/
noun
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
a religious conviction.
"Christian beliefs"
synonyms: ideology, principle, ethic, tenet, canon;

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
synonyms: faith, trust, reliance, confidence, credence
(google search for definition...)

So I can believe in whatever I choose to accept as true, regardless of any facts whatsoever to back it up, including sensory input. That is the very essence of "belief." I might be wrong, or I might be right, or a little of both, but regardless, it is not necessary for me to look at facts or science or sensory inputs to create or accept a belief.

Granted, some people say their belief is "the truth" and "fact" with nothing other than their passionate belief to back them up, and that's when you can nod your head sagely and say "I hear that you accept that belief as your truth and that you think I should accept it as truth as well. Thank you for sharing it with me..."


Peace,

AB

ps: If the deity DID present itself to someone's senses, it would only be proof for that individual (or individuals) that witnessed this. Many people might think that individual was insane!

If the "Kingdom of God is within" as stated in the Bible New Testament and attributed to Jesus, then it is an internal "place" not an external sensory place. If the inner world and private thoughts of an individual are REAL, then the Kingdom of God is also potentially real, internally. As is the Diety.

Non-physical is really ALL we have in the long run, as we are simply turning frequencies into "the world around us" and interpreting all that through our brains/nervous systems/sensory organs. Different sensory organs tuned to different frequency spectrums = different perception = different reality. That works between individual humans and species.

Thus the internal world of INTERPRETATION is what is truly REAL for an individual. Perception (sensory input and interpretation) is inherently limited, even flawed, by our own nature. (By flawed I mean our sensory inputs can be flawed, and thus our sensory interpretation, AND our mental processing of Life and our psychology, our conclusions about the world, etc, can also be flawed.)

"Belief" is a way of taking all the data we receive and lumping it into something we can hold onto, an anchor, however flawed, in the vast Ocean of Being.

I'm not advocating from a Christian perspective, I'm just thinking out loud here...

Does love exist? Does truth? Does beauty? These are things that occur as a subjective experience. What is truth to one is falsehood to another, ie 9/11. What is beautiful in my eyes may be an abomination in yours. Like gay marriage.

Such is the nature of abstract thought. And just as with any tool, it is what we build with it that measures its merit. Is a bald-faced lie worth preserving if it fosters the birth of a true utopia? Is an indomitable truth worth sharing if it means the end of a nation or civilization, or maybe the beginning of a global war that shatters countless lives?

Tough questions...