Capitalism doesn't and IS NOT working, it's destructive and creatives poor social incentives

a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

Good point. And it is all because of the greed of white men. Put centralized currency in the hands of savages, that's what happens.

Man, neo96 if you were dictator of planet Earth, the system we complain about now in this thread would be looked upon as
'The good ole' days'

a reply to: Toadmund

You've got that right! You hit the nail on the head! Bravo!!! I see I've made the error of trying to explain a different possibly better way. Then I get accused of being a socialist.

IMO Humans will continue to behave the way we have been until we literally cannot behave that way anymore - that's basically how humans operate. We do what we do to whatever, where-ever, when-ever, who-ever, however, until it's dead or nearly dead when we finally go 'oops can't do that anymore'. It applies to all aspects of human civilization and how we relate to the Earth and one-another. It's like we're more comfortable thinking of the possibility of dealing with that always on the horizon 'collapse' just happening, like it's completely out of our hands or a self fulfilling prophecy that's unavoidable, rather than doing the real work it takes to make a better world (something everyone has a part in - this isn't the illusion of red versus blue or a 9 to 5 job where you get to complain about the 'other' keeping you down and out here) - we can't handle that in our current evolutionary state though. I don't think our brains have developed as fast as the digital age has developed (to show us what is going wrong through and influx of 24/7/365 information) because we cannot see the bigger pictures or help the fact that our operating system (our civilizations) are in little to no ways built to adapt to or even anticipate GREAT change in a paradigm sense AT WILL because even our brains are tied to the systems we use. Take out one part and everything else will tumble.

In another sense it's like trying to explain how bitcoins work to certain individuals (usually our seniors) because "it's just different and doesn't make any sense when paper money is 'real' ". We just can't handle that kind of change lol.

No - I think we'll use what we have used until we just can't use it anymore.

There is an Einstein quote that sums up my feelings of the modern human challenge nicely: "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."

We're still in that bubble, IMO - if we, again AT WILL, can somehow change on that kind of level before what we're using is a dried out husk it will be astounding - but my bets are elsewhere (sorry for the pessimism - but I'm a very long term optimist).

a reply to: ldyserenity

It's really amazing how TPTB have convinced the poor peeons, the ignorant ones anyway, that any system that benefits everybody in society, namely socialism, is a bad thing.

It's like WW2 propaganda is still strong and effects minds to this day.

Who prefers this form of modern capitalism over socialism?
Usually those with lots of money, idealists, or the ignorant who would benefit from socialism, but support the system that benefits those who wash their brains.

Modern capitalism is broken, it speaks for itself.

I would like to invite you all to come contribute to this:

Direct Democratic Republic

the goal is to design a new functional society. come up with new ideas, or help find flaws in existing possibilities. provide options to fix those flaws.

capitalism and the corporatism that grew from it has to end.
we need to decentralise all the power structures.

a reply to: Toadmund

I wouldn't think socialism would be any better. You would still have power in the hands of a few. I'd rather decentralized capitalism with small city state governments. Where corporations would/could never be national. If they were in NY then they would follow NY laws, they would only have as much weight or maybe somewhat less than the people on voting in laws. They could trade with other states which would only be done through fair means etc. Etc...

a reply to: onequestion
I would have to ask first:
What is the alternative?

What would provide incentives for those who under capitalism seem to be without incentive and refuse to work to support themselves and their families?

a reply to: onequestion

Rudolf Steiner came up with an intriging idea and even presented it to governments after World War I called the three-fold social order.

www.rudolfsteinerweb.com...

Basically it is made of of three completely autonomous domains of human social order. From the above reference:

Rudolf Steiner developed the idea between 1917 and 1922. The core concept recognizes three domains of human social activity: economic, legal, and cultural. Steiner maintained that the health of human society depended on an adult population that understood the characteristics of each domain and could thereby organize society so that each domain enjoyed independence and autonomy. In an early characterization Steiner said the three domains should be as independent from one another as national states interacting by way of treaties.

The Waldorf schools are run on a somewhat skewed verison of 'ThreeFolding". It's been a while since I studied it but the main point is that the three segments of society would be free from the influence of the others. Much as the US's Three branches of government are suppost to be independent.

One plan.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Hi rabbit.

Not saying Bitcoin is the answer, but we can learn numerous lessons from it. The second generation's of crypto currencies have done so. Why not continue updating them to abundance and select the best one for humanity?

There's many different currency systems. We use a debt based one, not credit. Your "credit" is actually debt. You have been tricked into thinking buying a house makes you xxx dollars wealthier. This is false. You are xxx dollars further in debt. You also just generated xxx x leverage rate more in debt into the economy directly by your loan. Thus, every loan, and almost every dollar transaction, produces inflation. Remember, inflation steals your wealth.

To put it another way, if their was no debt, IE, everything was paid off, you wouldn't have any "money" to circulate in the system. Thus you would be out of debt. It is perpetual, their is no way out of austerity, ever. You will always be in debt, and you will never get closer to the surface. It is evil.

Research my friend. :-)

Credit based are the exact opposite of what we have. Crypto currencies offer transparency. You can't just fudge some numbers to make bribes disappear.

If done right, austerity also vanishes, as the government can become the employer of last resort. It generates its own money, so their is no need to borrow.

a reply to: onequestion

Capitalism doesn’t work??! Really!! So what do you think is best! Socialism, Communism, Fascism!

If capitalism is so bad then you need to give up EVERYTHING you have! Everything you use every day is because of capitalism. The shoes on your stinking feet are because of it. The computer you used to create this asinine post is because of capitalism!

Your complete lack of historical knowledge is astounding! Capitalism is not the problem! Stupid people like you are the problem because idiots like you vote for communist scum just like that POS sitting in office right now. You sir are the problem! You & your lack of intelligences!

a reply to: ldyserenity
Yes, socialism fails, capitalism fails, so why not a system that utilises the best parts of them both that hold the greatest benefits to the greatest numbers of people.

We can start by eliminating the black eye of capitalism, bought politicians, lobbyists, revolving doors, career politicians, campaign contributions, etc. why no laws against these things, oh yeah forgot, those who make the rules, rule out you and me.

Like members here keep saying, many politicians should be led out in handcuffs, but they are virtually immune to the law, including being traitorous to their own country and countrymen.

'Too big to jail.'

Easy.

Solar, Wind etc. Technologies should provide for the basic requirements of life, car dependent sprawl will be converted into bike paths etc. ACTUAL bicycle racks will be available everywhere. Any additional purchasing power beyond a monthly allowance for (entertainment, luxuries, etc) can only be afforded by those who choose to work (maintaining the grid, teaching, doctors, asteroid defense, humanities, artwork etc).

This can't actually be started until we've refocused our governments incentive from serving the few to serving the many.

Purchasing power should only relate to luxuries. Bare life essentials would be a right. Population limit could be bought out of if you provide enough service or collect enough purchasing points by providing artwork/music etc that people would be willing to spend their allowances/earnings on.

The only type of person this society will have NO PLACE FOR are those who will deflate the health requirements of the public and the many to serve themselves as kings. Basically society won't be enforced on the basis of threat to life. The kings of today WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT HAVE THAT though

The ideal society is not that far away.

a reply to: Not Authorized

Research my friend. :-)

I have..I continue to..and the lessons I've taken from bitcoin were that it was a rather bad idea. Actually..more than just rather bad. It's an exceptionally risky thing to even joke about when what is at stake is personal resources and wealth.

I'd be interested in seeing how ideas you have here played out in a limited example, but I think it's best scenario thinking and planning for it working out.

As mentioned.. I don't trust the internet for permenancy. I don't trust the digital world created within electronics around us. If we lose that interconnected super-resource, we lose 'money' existing in a cryptocurrency. Those who control the net overall, control the access to, if not to actual workings of that digitally based 'currency'.

You might check out some of the extensive threads with original material I've created on Credit, Debt and the National budget as both sides of that equation related to the overall economy. I appreciate the effort in explaining it though.

Overall? I'll very confidently keep Capitalism and the effort to return to something like it really ought to be, until a proven (on at least SOME scale) system comes along. Heck, someone here may be the one to invent that next system. When it's played out for some time to see how folks who live under it in the example, like it? I'll love to hear more.

Economic inequality or income equality is a code word for resource scarcity.

Science can provide us with solutions that eliminate scarcity and thus poverty.

Here's the really important question.

Is that the goal of a money structured society ?

a reply to: Confed2001
No, you got it wrong, our version of capitalism is wrong, most of us are shut off from the benefits of it simply because we have the people we do in politics.

Capitalism we have today is based on exploitation and theft that serves a few VERY well, not the fair exchange of goods and labour that benefit the majority.
And modern socialism is based on stealing power from the people and giving it to the government or a dictator, good gov or bad.

The problem with all systems is people.

a reply to: Cyruay

Modern capitalism and hoarding is a major cause of resource scarcity, when money is to be made, get in, take it all, get out and $ell it.
So yeah, the other code word is that.

originally posted by: Cyruay

Science can provide us with solutions that eliminate scarcity and thus poverty.

Here's the really important question.

Is that the goal of a money structured society ?

Well no, the goal is to sell to exhaustion as long as it rakes in money and to eliminate competition.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

No room for a fusion of the best of all systems, including capitalism? We can't put our heads together, and come up with something better? One that benefits all?

Capitalism works, look at the example of it working. Look at Nature. Nature isn't fair, in most cases it is about screwing the other guy ( shark swallows sea lion, fly in web, shade of a large tree stifling growth below it ). Works better in some places than others. Look at the bounty in a rainforest, a very active capitalist environment analogous to NYC. But, it's also VERY easy to get eaten there. Nature even has a monopoly known as humanity. Just like you pay Exxon, M$, GE, so all the creatures of the Earth are paying humanity with the only currency in Nature, their lives. We created money, but it's just for the easy transfer of what you REALLY need.

But we do not have a system that models what we see working already all around us. Always tweaking it, and it will never appear to work because it takes TIME. And we also try to screw with Nature, we move animals around where they don't belong. Starlings are not native to North America, but they're here now and the population has grown to the pest scale. Nature will even it out, just as true capitalism will even out as well. And Monopolies can collapse of their own weight, and decimate innocents in the process. Like we are so close to doing sometimes.....

There is also luck involved in success, and someone can certainly appear to be unfairly lucky. Like the bear that finds a really good garbage can.

Nature ain't fair, Capitalism ain't fair. But they work, no mistaking that they work.

a reply to: Not Authorized

Oh, there is room for fusion, but fusion doesn't really start well by opening with the premise that one segment of a chimera of philosophies is the sole responsibility of the whole failing. The fact we seem to generally agree this has morphed, means it's not really Capitalism but the very POOR approach of agenda driven fusion to most like have caused this failure anyway.

Realistically, we have to come together at some point. Post crash or pre-crash. Prior would be preferable, I'm sure we agree. Communism is the only system I see absolutely nothing redeemable out of, and that is something different from Socialism as it's seen in Europe, to be sure. Those systems? (Euro ones) We can and SHOULD take what works..but what works in reality not in "but..if WE do it, we can MAKE it work!", as I think some wishful thinking goes.