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Capitalism doesn't and IS NOT working, it's destructive and creatives poor social incentives

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posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 11:00 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1




Oh and what is that statistic that says something about ever american being over $ 30,000.00 in debt . Do the math .After 30 years of communism they had how much debt ? All things being equal ,it would be interesting to consider .Of course they didn't have fiat currency


Yes, you are correct, we have fiat currency(Federal Reserve Act passed by Congress during a lame duck session at Christmastime) combined with growing government spending. We have a great deal of overhead including Social Security(Ponzi scheme and forced government intrusion into our personal financial affairs by way of Nanny Statism), Medicare(more government forced intrustion), pork barrel spending, welfare programs, a growing base of government employees and pensions, and yes even wars and more wars.

Our Founding Fathers wanted less government intrusion, less government period. Our Founders considered various economic systems and devised a system of government most amenable to liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and it is closer to free enterprise than it is socialism.

As far as communism and debt, there is not a reference specifically to debts in that particular quote of Bradford, though I haven't read his entire writing, but the Soviet Empire had started out with a grain surplus, and by the time they had instituted collective farming and communism, they lost their surplus and were unable to export as they had before. Lenin and the Bolsheviks seized the peasant's surplus grain during the revolution. Sounds really great huh?

As long as the government could not provide the countryside with the industrial goods it needed, there was no compelling economic reason for the peasants to deliver foodstuffs for the towns and army. As Lenin admitted later, the government for the most part took the peasants' surplus grain and even food needed by their families "on credit, for paper money." Since this paper money was practically worthless, the peasants naturally felt cheated and therefore united in opposition to their enemies from the outside, the principal one being of course the Communist government in Moscow.

www.johndclare.net...

But then we know that according to Marxist and communist philosophy, the ends justify the means.....errr wait, I thought communism was supposed to help all the peasants?
edit on 8-6-2014 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 11:06 PM
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a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

do you even know what you mean by free market?

if you want a truly free market just take a peek at any of the black markets that exist across the globe
those are free markets

the founding fathers wanted common sense rather than absolutes
look at the world today
does it in any way resemble the world the founding fathers lived in?
ok...... then why should our system of economics?
edit on 8-6-2014 by sirhumperdink because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 11:12 PM
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a reply to: Not Authorized

Where are we finding a cryptocurrency that is fit to try where it means life and death to people on national scales?

Bit coin is hardly without it's rough issues and a story just yesterday was talking about the Inspector General finding a Government Employee misusing high speed computers to mine bit coin. Young generations may accept them, but I think we're a long way from the majority accepting no more money outside digital reality. As the cryptocurrencies suggest.

They have their place..but I can't even fathom it as a full societal replacement for a new system. Too many of us recall a world without the digital infrastructure and how easily that could become a state of reality again.

Also, why base a new system on the very same credit concept that has destroyed this one? Credit gone wild to allow virtually anything, is a fair part of what is eating our whole system out. (China's too, but that's a different thread) The death and nail the the heart of the dollar truly came the day we came off the gold standard and went to.......make-believe...and credit on basing a whole economy on perception of value.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 11:22 PM
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Like I said any of the different types can work or can fail .How well do you think Stalin would have fared in any system ..The guy was a devil .He had no compassion .Quite a brutal dictator I have heard . a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 11:45 PM
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blather that socialist/communist countries inherently afford freedom or even tolerate it


Apparently you've never been to any socialist countries. They have plenty of freedoms, just not the stupid ones that average Americans love like wasting all our resources and destroying the planet.

Every society has power structures, rules and standards that are seen as against freedom by some, it's a delusion to pretend they won't be any, or ever was a society without them. Only in America though do we pretend that people can or should have absolute freedom to do negative things even if they're damaging to society.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 11:49 PM
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a reply to: sirhumperdink

The Black Market is a response to centralized control banning items, as we saw in the Soviet Union. Were you blaming the Black Market on Capitalist society? In a Free Enterprise economy, you would technically not require a Black Market because those items would be traded freely.
Blue Jeans and the Beatles were among items most banned in the Soviet Union.

Speaking of our Founding Fathers again, they rebelled against the excessive taxation and control of the British empire. In fact everything about our Founders points to the individual rather than the collective.


In the modern world, under the influence of the pervasive new climate, a succession of thinkers developed a new conception of the nature of government. The most important of these men and the one with the greatest influence on America was John Locke. The political philosophy Locke bequeathed to the Founding Fathers is what gave rise to the new nation’s distinctive institutions. That political philosophy is the social implementation of the Aristotelian spirit.
Throughout history the state had been regarded, implicitly or explicitly, as the ruler of the individual—as a sovereign authority (with or without supernatural mandate), an authority logically antecedent to the citizen and to which he must submit. The Founding Fathers challenged this primordial notion. They started with the premise of the primacy and sovereignty of the individual. The individual, they held, logically precedes the group or the institution of government. Whether or not any social organization exists, each man possesses certain individual rights. And “among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”—or, in the words of a New Hampshire state document, “among which are the enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; and in a word, of seeking and obtaining happiness.”

aynrandlexicon.com...


The collectivisation tried in the Soviet Union failed. Why try it here?

edit on 8-6-2014 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-6-2014 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 12:30 AM
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a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus


some items should be banned
look at thailand
you can buy anything from bootleg dvds to a living breathing human being
in a completely free market you would be able to buy a politicians services outright (rather than the underhanded bs that goes on currently)
no rules against monopolies either so good luck competing with a company that already owns all or almost all the raw materials as well as the means of production
again i dont know what your definition of a freemarket is but i think you misunderstand

i dont know why you think a completely free market would do anything other than it has (moral degradation,corruption of the political system, and a small and shrinking middle class)
but hey lets ignore the fact that a freemarket by its very nature does not remain free for very long and focus on the fantasy ideal of what capitalism should be (something that by many peoples own admission does not and never has existed)
edit on 9-6-2014 by sirhumperdink because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 01:02 AM
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The problem with capitalism is not working is because of governmental agencies ,enforcement agencies law makers team up to pick winners or losers .

Me and 2 friends started a hotshot delivery service for the oil field . 3 trucks 3 guys business license away we went .Good pay competed with several companies .

The down fall .

new regs.
business license in any county we went to. Normally just home office this precipitated address in every county . had to rent space

Cdl even if in a standard pickup.

Insurance requirement went from 150,000 to 1.5 m in a year . The service dealt with tools and supplies needed in an emergency take to rigs.

Old reg up to 150 gallons of fuel on top of truck tanks was okay new regs more than 50 gallons total needed hazmat license endorsement plus higher insurance rates we rigged trucks with 3 tanks to begin with 60 gallons( because of long drives.) before any jugs or equipment that used fuel.

Dot usually ignored 2t and smaller then all of a sudden we were getting stopped in 3/4 or 1t trucks every time they saw us break out the scales even if we were only carrying 3 100lbs sacks of drilling materials . A friendly competitor suggested we take some one out for a fishing trip beer girls ect. None of us got stopped again . But that was wrong and expensive

our final straw was we were based in a county residential district, new ordinance home businesses with work trucks were no longer allowed any thing over 3/4 couldn't be using those residential roads.

New reg needed to be bonded every one for 1m Wtf?

We gave up our profits went from damn good to barely paying gas and insurance and licenses we were working for fees and insurance companies . regulated us out of business look around you will see this bs every where

This was 35 years ago and its only gotten worse.



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 01:30 AM
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a reply to: Lostinthedarkness

You had a good system until Federal government became to large and not enough provisions were put in that prevented outside influence's affecting government. Your presidential race is Mr America 20?? and has no substance but absolutely huge amounts of money are spent. The fact that corporations are now people is just ridiculous and should be repealed. Remove lobbyists, only have the parties donated to by people and cap the donation amount to $10,000 and have to be fully transparent.
These are measures we have and it keeps the outside influence to a minimum, the kickbacks usually happen when they get in to government but the political race is fair and not based on a popularity contest.
Remove the overweight bureaucracy with the endless regulation which favours big business because they can absorb the costs. Give the rights back to the states and make sure strict laws are in place against companies for toxic dumping etc.. and get rid of agencies like the EPA, Federal Land Management all these stupid agencies which could be handled at a state level quite easily by park rangers.



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 02:49 AM
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"There are basically two root causes which have created the increased wealth and population growth we see today.
One: the exponential advancement of production technology; hence scientific ingenuity.
And Two: the initial discovery of abundant hydrocarbon energy -which is currently the foundation of the entire socio-economic system.

The free-market capitalist monetary market system whatever you want to call it - has done nothing but ride the wave of these advents with a distorted incentive system and a haphazard grossly unequal method of utilizing and distributing those fruits"-Peter Joseph from Zeitgeist Moving Foward



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 04:19 AM
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originally posted by: amfirst1
And let me guess u believe socialism where a few determine the rules for the majority is not an oligarchy? I rest my case.

Capitalism will allow competition and different variables which effects the outcome, so power is not centralize. Socialism power is centralize for a few, there is no competition. A small group of autocrats will write the laws. And u best believe they will be exempt and bring their family and friends in the fold to benefit from the laws.


Absolutely wrong. In case you haven't noticed, capitalism naturally evolves into monopolies controlled by oligarchies; it is a phase of capitalist development.

"Socialist power is centralized for a few"

Well then it's not socialism, is it? So why do you describe something in ways that it is clearly defined as not being?



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 04:32 AM
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originally posted by: LittleByLittle
a reply to: Vovin

Yes in theory communism do not allow for the power pyramid. But what about in practice.

Give me an example of implemented communism in human history where people own everything and power is distributed equally thru the people where the power pyramid do not exist? Representative control by a political elite is still the power pyramid.


This may be a hard concept to grasp...

...but if the ideology in practice does not actually follow the attributes of the ideology in theory... Then it's not even that ideology at all despite the name.

So many times members on ATS have tried to change the very clear definitions of ideologies to discredit the ideologies.

And what's even worse is that your argument defies the actual definitions, thereby shattering your argument instantly.

First off, you need to learn the definition of communism. I already explained it in the very post you quoted:

The people own the means of production.

Second, is that there are a lot of stages involved in the accumulation process of changing the entire social paradigm of material existence that takes generations to implement. This is just like every other paradigm change in history, where it takes hundreds of years before the paradigm really takes off.

Third, is that it's not even worth explaining this anymore. Why should I have to lecture such a vast topic as the socioeconomic evolution of our entire species to you when if you had any interest in the subject, you would pick up a book and read it yourself.

Seriously, pick up Capital by Marx and read it. It will change your life.



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 04:45 AM
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"Ok I know what your response is going to be, it's not capitalism it's an oligarchy, it's crony capitalism, it's everything else. But guess what, capitalism is what brought us into the oligarchy it's what got us into this mess."

No, government corruption and a lazy/uneducated electorate is what got us into this mess. Not any "ism".

It's also worth noting that an oligarchy is a form of government, not mode of economy, for anyone who may be confused by this wording. But then again, the OP can't even title his post properly, so....

edit on 9-6-2014 by Dfairlite because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-6-2014 by Dfairlite because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 05:35 AM
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originally posted by: Lostinthedarkness
The problem with capitalism is not working is because of governmental agencies ,enforcement agencies law makers team up to pick winners or losers .

Me and 2 friends started a hotshot delivery service for the oil field . 3 trucks 3 guys business license away we went .Good pay competed with several companies .

The down fall .

new regs.
business license in any county we went to. Normally just home office this precipitated address in every county . had to rent space

Cdl even if in a standard pickup.

Insurance requirement went from 150,000 to 1.5 m in a year . The service dealt with tools and supplies needed in an emergency take to rigs.

Old reg up to 150 gallons of fuel on top of truck tanks was okay new regs more than 50 gallons total needed hazmat license endorsement plus higher insurance rates we rigged trucks with 3 tanks to begin with 60 gallons( because of long drives.) before any jugs or equipment that used fuel.

Dot usually ignored 2t and smaller then all of a sudden we were getting stopped in 3/4 or 1t trucks every time they saw us break out the scales even if we were only carrying 3 100lbs sacks of drilling materials . A friendly competitor suggested we take some one out for a fishing trip beer girls ect. None of us got stopped again . But that was wrong and expensive

our final straw was we were based in a county residential district, new ordinance home businesses with work trucks were no longer allowed any thing over 3/4 couldn't be using those residential roads.

New reg needed to be bonded every one for 1m Wtf?

We gave up our profits went from damn good to barely paying gas and insurance and licenses we were working for fees and insurance companies . regulated us out of business look around you will see this bs every where

This was 35 years ago and its only gotten worse.



I dont think its really government in the sense that is doing this. Considering we live in a corporatocracy, regulations that hinder "the little guy" from having a chance at success and hardly hinder large corporations, which have the money and resources to jump through all the hoops, and in effect hold on to a monopoly of power, is more like what you are seeing.



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 07:39 AM
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a reply to: BO XIAN
Any system is only as good as those who run it and to a lesser extent those in it. The current system is so far from either capitalism or communism that it can barely be related. If the leadership of a system is wicked and evil to the core no system will work for the general population ever. Our leaders are corrupt, dishonest and adhere to using fear though the use of voilence,death and loss etc to control the population.
Glad to see that somebody sees the real entities behind what is going on in this world as i am sick and tired of those that think either the Rockerfellers or the Rothchilds are solely behind this. It seems fairly clear to me that when a person sells their soul that other entities (EG satan or one of his demons) can control them and this has been mentioned by people in the music industry. It is a ridiculous notion that music stars would be controlled in this way but not figures of obvious greater importance to the satanic agender than certain members in influencial political & financial positions. Of cause these individuals would be under very deep mind control to further the satanic/dark agender and this is becoming very clear. These individuals will clearly pay the price for what they have done.



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 08:55 AM
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Cut and dry answer: Eliminate all currency

No system that involves currency will last.
Eliminate money and you will eliminate the majority of the world's problems.



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 08:56 AM
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a reply to: Vovin

Maybe I phrased it in a way you could not understand the point I was trying to make. From my point of view there is no real example on a finished communist system and all systems that have been labeled communist in current human history was in fact stuck in a power pyramid class dictatorship and would in fact be defined as state capitalism. My point is that I want an example of a social community that exists that does not have the power pyramid. And I would be amazed if someone in fact gave me an example of as you would call it "finished communist nation society without the power pyramid".



Second, is that there are a lot of stages involved in the accumulation process of changing the entire social paradigm of material existence that takes generations to implement. This is just like every other paradigm change in history, where it takes hundreds of years before the paradigm really takes off.


That means it will always fail if you do it like this because the Power pyramid will not give up the power they have. The only way to implement Communism is to implement it fully direct with an extreme preparation and people consent that this is what is going to exist in this region and no one who is opposed it should be allowed to create a power pyramid to enslave others.
edit on 9-6-2014 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 09:00 AM
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Metanoia films: Human Resources
Please ,take the time to watch this movie, several times if needed, use your wonderful internet to research what it tells of.

This is one of the few movies that have made me cry because the situation is so far along there may be no stopping what may be coming in our future.

Emerging technologies make the future look even more dark....Regarding the exercising of "The Power Principle"....

I feel sorry for anyone forced to live in the world that is coming.

Know the truth, spread the truth, go enjoy your life, do what you can to make things better for your fellow man whenever you can.
edit on 9-6-2014 by MyHappyDogShiner because: link

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edit on 9-6-2014 by MyHappyDogShiner because: dit2



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 09:16 AM
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Once again we are caught up more in 'WHAT' we are doing rather than 'WHY' it is being done. True lasting change comes from understanding why a civilization failed rather than what it did to fail.
This though is the true problem as most of us are conditioned to be distracted by what we do rather than in questioning why we do it.

It's not easy knowing why we do what we do, which is why ignorance is subconsciously justified by the majority.

Put a little more effort into questioning 'why' humanity continually booms and busts and you'll see what needs to be done with a very different perspective.



posted on Jun, 9 2014 @ 09:25 AM
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originally posted by: Prime80
Cut and dry answer: Eliminate all currency

No system that involves currency will last.
Eliminate money and you will eliminate the majority of the world's problems.


I agree.




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