Are unions inherently evil?

Are unions inherently evil?


This thread is to attemp to break up some disinformation that's pretty obvious.


Some how the right has convinced its base that the concept of a union is inherently evil. Of course you can always point to corrupt union leaders, but you can also point to corrupt presidents. That doesn't mean the office of president is evil.


The real reason for the right to attack unions is because they donate to dems. It's got nothing to do with improving society it's about defunding the democrats. I just don't know how they managed to pull a switcheroo on there base. Undoubtably the ability for employees to come togather to negotiate with there employers is a good thing. It is almost the only check on the employer not raping there employees.


I just wonder if the people on the right see it for what it is... A tactic.

The same thing is going on with the school voucher stuff. I'm kinda on the fence with this one tho. I think the education does need an overhaul. However that's not the reason the GOP want to do it. It's about killing the teachers union because there one of the democrats major donors. I don't know if you can trust a system geared to break the dems bank first and teach the kids second. That said if all the vouchers cover all the schools. Then it really would be an improvement. Except all the creationism that already gets taught in a lot of the private schools.


So what do ya'll think?

Really would like to see what the more intellegent conservatives think.

reply to post by ArtemisE


Free voluntary associations of citizens are not inherently evil. However, unionism has many problems not least of which being the tendency to be mandatory in any given shop or trade. Also, the use of violence and intimidation to prevent non-union workers from supplying labor is criminal.

The fully developed form of trade unionism is Syndicalism.

Unions aren't inherently evil, but I don't like the idea of mandatory membership depending on the job or industry you are a part of. Union membership should be a choice, but employers are just as in the wrong to prevent ALL union membership in their companies as well.

If union membership is a choice, how do you handle the freeloader problem? Those who feel entitled to the benefits without paying the dues?

Good and evil are subjective, therefore, nothing can be inherently evil...or inherently good.

reply to post by greencmp


I'd like to hear of one instance where an American citizen was "forced" to join a union.

reply to post by ArtemisE


Unions, at their best, are inherently good imnho.

Yet like all power grouping in a small number of people at the top, they have to have check and balances as well as honest and principled people either in leadership or keeping a keen eye on leadership.

reply to post by Montana


I'm not sure that is an issue that this thread is trying to solve, but I'm sure that given enough intelligent people working on the solution that an acceptable one could be reached that maintains the choice of membership while handling the freeloader issue.

tinner07
reply to post by greencmp

 

I'd like to hear of one instance where an American citizen was "forced" to join a union.

Other way around, you don't get the job unless you join the union in union shops. The exception would be the rarity so the question is, show me a union shop that has non-union workers.

greencmp
reply to post by ArtemisE

 

Free voluntary associations of citizens are not inherently evil. However, unionism has many problems not least of which being the tendency to be mandatory in any given shop or trade. Also, the use of violence and intimidation to prevent non-union workers from supplying labor is criminal.

The fully developed form of trade unionism is syndicalism.

edit on 16-4-2014 by greencmp because: (no reason given)

I know you won't do this...but, you should look back and see 'THE WHY" unions were started in the first place. the violent retaliation paid for by big business at that time, used hired thugs to kill and maim workers who protested. do you think that the gains for workers safety, better pay, shorter hours, were given to them by generous corporate leaders....the worker is a number, a liability on the profit spreadsheet, that's it, and corporations are ALWAYS, ALWAYS trying to find ways to fire people to make their bottom line look better.

reply to post by ArtemisE


Instead of listening to other people to form your opinions, why don't you simply research the multitude of reasons unions were formed in the first place. From there you can understand the concept relative to your moral values.

Ignoring history dooms you and presumably the rest of us with you.

reply to post by greencmp


What I am saying is, nobody is forced to join a union. If you want to work in a union shop you have to join the union, but you can choose not to take the job.

If you don't want to swim, don't take a job as a lifeguard, you don't want deal with blood, don't become a surgeon, don't want to join a union, don't apply at a union shop.

I have worked in many union sheet metal shops and we have had non union employees. They were not sheet metal workers though. Truck drivers and such.

jimmyx

greencmp
reply to post by ArtemisE

 

Free voluntary associations of citizens are not inherently evil. However, unionism has many problems not least of which being the tendency to be mandatory in any given shop or trade. Also, the use of violence and intimidation to prevent non-union workers from supplying labor is criminal.

The fully developed form of trade unionism is syndicalism.

edit on 16-4-2014 by greencmp because: (no reason given)

I know you won't do this...but, you should look back and see 'THE WHY" unions were started in the first place. the violent retaliation paid for by big business at that time, used hired thugs to kill and maim workers who protested. do you think that the gains for workers safety, better pay, shorter hours, were given to them by generous corporate leaders....the worker is a number, a liability on the profit spreadsheet, that's it, and corporations are ALWAYS, ALWAYS trying to find ways to fire people to make their bottom line look better.

Yes, the robber barons and industrial tycoons used violence as well.

Unions are just like everything else. They are fine until the people running them screw things up.
Churches, charities, boy scouts. Congress.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


It may not be the issue of this thread, but it was the first thing you brought up so I responded. This IS the issue of closed shops. It is why there are closed shops in the first place. Without solving this issue many unions will not even consider choice of membership.

Without proposing a solution to the freeloader issue, we would basically be putting our fingers in our ears, covering our eyes and saying "Problem? What problem I don't see a problem!"

Unions, with properly executed contracts, can be excellent.

For instance, if a worker is a union member...
They have the ability to file grievances and fight for their rights to work, keep their employment, or strike if a company decides to take more than they agreed to take. They have strength in numbers and work in relatively safe conditions. Also, their union membership provides coverage for unsafe work practices and basically all company wrong doings.
There is alot more, but I want to discuss some negatives first.

Now with that same worker and in today's economy/society...
Everyone in the same job class gets paid the same amount. So if Joe Schmoe wants to sleep all day, and you work all day, he still gets paid the same amount. There is no benefit for working harder than the next guy. This leads to overall apathy and laziness. No matter how hard you work, there is nothing "extra" in it for you. Also, companies continue to walk all over union contracts these days. They bring in outside contractors to do union jobs and lay off the union guys to save money. It seems to be common practice around my neck of the woods.

Unions today are NOT they same as years ago. Money has been corrupting them from the start and their influence seems to diminish in the company but not politics. Go figure. Companies have added clauses to contracts that enable them to do things today that would cause uproars years ago. The older union guys are allowing it to happen. They just give away the very rights that were fought and decided on decades ago, in lieu of keeping their jobs.

No one wants to fight anymore.

I say, at one time unions protected the people, but now they only protect money.

greencmp

Other way around, you don't get the job unless you join the union in union shops. The exception would be the rarity so the question is, show me a union shop that has non-union workers.

I had a job at a union shop and was technically not a member of the union.

I had to suffer several meetings with union reps wasting many hours as they tried to sell the union to me.

Had to sign a stack of wavers and documents.

In the end the result was I could opt-out of the union, various union "protections" and the extorted dues they took would be reduced though they still took dues.

The whole time I worked there I was constantly harassed by union reps. Told to slow down. Told to decrease my output. Threatened with termination for exceeding union determined numbers. Always fighting to for refunds to "accidental" dues that would mysteriously disappear from my pay.

I was fairly indifferent maybe leaning positive toward my perception of unions until that job. Now I've nothing but hot venomous hate for them for the way they treated me for five years.

tinner07
reply to post by greencmp

 

What I am saying is, nobody is forced to join a union. If you want to work in a union shop you have to join the union, but you can choose not to take the job.

If you don't want to swim, don't take a job as a lifeguard, you don't want deal with blood, don't become a surgeon, don't want to join a union, don't apply at a union shop.

I have worked in many union sheet metal shops and we have had non union employees. They were not sheet metal workers though. Truck drivers and such.

The OP's question was inquiring as to why unions are considered ultimately evil and destructive to society.

When a group of employees agree to consolidate their negotiations that is one thing. When these associations merge and become massive institutions, that is another.

Most of the perceived anti-union sentiment is actually anti-public-sector-union which is a completely different conversation.

There is no excuse for public sector unions, they must be eradicated.

reply to post by ArtemisE


It's a fairly simple concept:

Organized labor tends to support candidates on the left because they're pro-labor where as the right wants us to exalt the "job creators" and grovel at their feet for handouts. The Republican economic platform since the late 70's can be summed up with any of the interchangeable terms: "Reagonomics," "Trickle-down Economics," or "Supply-side Economics."

I've worked in union and non-union shops as a laborer and in management. The difference was night and day. The union shops have good pay, good benefits, more time off and so the jobs attract better workers who take their jobs more seriously and the employers have a much lower turnover rate which generally leads to a better trained, skilled workforce. That said, I've also seen plenty of the 'ol one hand washes the other when it comes to shop stewards and management, but in the end, the net result for the union members in my personal experience has always been a MUCH better job than people in he same profession in a non-union environment.

The OP's question was inquiring as to why unions are considered ultimately evil and destructive to society.

When a group of employees agree to consolidate their negotiations that is one thing. When these associations merge and become massive institutions, that is another.

Most of the perceived anti-union sentiment is actually anti-public-sector-union which is a completely different conversation.

There is no excuse for public sector unions, they must be eradicated.

reply to post by greencmp


Your'e right. Not sure how I feel about public sector unions. Kind of side tracking the OP.