Are unions inherently evil?

greencmp


Most of the perceived anti-union sentiment is actually anti-public-sector-union which is a completely different conversation.

There is no excuse for public sector unions, they must be eradicated.

Why? When a person decides to teach or work in the bureaucracy of providing services to the public (this has to be something very similar to hell I think) they no longer get to have a voice in the workplace? I don't get this opinion.

reply to post by Montana


First let me say that you are absolutely correct. This is a problem with the whole "union membership is optional" thing, but I was just giving my opinion on how unions are ran and the way I see it, the current model is flawed. A new model needs to be drafted and implemented and that issue was one of the most glaring that needs to be changed. I'm not heavily invested enough in this topic to have come up with a fix to your issue, but off the top of my head, unions could negotiate terms for union only members in the company. So that you get these conditions (pay, benefits, retirement etc) for being a member of the union, but if you choose not to, all these things are at the discretion of the company to give to you (which I imagine they won't since they aren't being forced to do so).

Absolutely agree the whole thing needs to be re-thought. Both international unions and industry groups have abused the current system. I just wonder how we go about it. We would probably have as much luck doing that as obtaining a truly representative government. Which is to say ain't gonna happen.

ArtemisE

Are unions inherently evil?

If you fully read Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations you will find that he actually argues for and against unions. He basically calls them a necessary evil otherwise the wealthy owners would screw over the working class. If I have time I will do a bit of a search and find some of the pages and quotes regarding this.

I would argue today that many (not all) unions are just as corrupt and dirty as corporations and politicians/governments and perhaps they have to be to protect the workers. However, there are many people in (certain) unions that will tell you that the union really doesn't protect the workers.

So, it's very dependent on the union.

Montana

greencmp


Most of the perceived anti-union sentiment is actually anti-public-sector-union which is a completely different conversation.

There is no excuse for public sector unions, they must be eradicated.

Why? When a person decides to teach or work in the bureaucracy of providing services to the public (this has to be something very similar to hell I think) they no longer get to have a voice in the workplace? I don't get this opinion.

Why should public servants be allowed to unionize against the american people?

Should children be allowed to unionize against their parents?

The public sector union question is very different from trade unions.

reply to post by greencmp


I would have to say that most of the employers in the US are "American people". If the "American people" aren't treating employees right they deserve to have the same headaches as any other employer in my opinion. They aren't slaves, right? They are employees and we are the "boss". The relationship is the same, the only difference is the source of the pay. One is taxes and the other is sales.

Montana
reply to post by greencmp

 

I would have to say that most of the employers in the US are "American people". If the "American people" aren't treating employees right they deserve to have the same headaches as any other employer in my opinion. They aren't slaves, right? They are employees and we are the "boss". The relationship is the same, the only difference is the source of the pay. One is taxes and the other is sales.

No, we can't just go out of business, start a different country and find a new staff to hire. We all pay for everything that the state does and we deserve to have the best quality services at the most equitable price.

Private and public anything is different and unions are no exception.

Unions started out as a VERY good thing. Very much needed. They did a lot of good.
However, as time went on, they corrupted. This happens when power and money are involved.
The unions are no longer even a shadow of what they started out to be.
Their time of doing good is over.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Since overwhelming greed and sense of entitlement is still a large part of the human psyche, I would disagree that there is no longer a need for unions. This feeling is born out by corporate actions every single day in my industry. I think it has become a case of old, senile organizations needing to be replaced by younger, more dynamic unions that are re-dedicated to the original need. Just like any other human endeavor, collective bargaining needs to be reined in every now and then.

greencmp

Montana
reply to post by greencmp

 

I would have to say that most of the employers in the US are "American people". If the "American people" aren't treating employees right they deserve to have the same headaches as any other employer in my opinion. They aren't slaves, right? They are employees and we are the "boss". The relationship is the same, the only difference is the source of the pay. One is taxes and the other is sales.

No, we can't just go out of business, start a different country and find a new staff to hire. We all pay for everything that the state does and we deserve to have the best quality services at the most equitable price.

Private and public anything is different and unions are no exception.

If we deserve to "have the best quality" why shouldn't we be expected to pay for it? Should public employees feel ecstatic over the opportunity to wipe our butts?

You want the best you gotta pay the price, right?

greencmp
Why should public servants be allowed to unionize against the american people?

Should children be allowed to unionize against their parents?

The public sector union question is very different from trade unions.

The comparison is not exactly valid. Do you know any public servants that are unionized? You should talk to them.

Additionally, I've had this conversation with a lawyer. He was absolutely 100% happy about what happened in Wisconsin after Scott Walker took over. During the conversation I found out his wife was a teacher in Connecticut (unionized) and so I quickly said... "I'm guessing you want her union to be dismantled so she can potentially lose pay and benefits?"

What do you think his answer was?

Forgetting public sector unions, there are bigger fish to fry than the unions. Until we do something about CEO collusion and compensation bitching about unions is utter lunacy.

Montana

greencmp

Montana
reply to post by greencmp

 

I would have to say that most of the employers in the US are "American people". If the "American people" aren't treating employees right they deserve to have the same headaches as any other employer in my opinion. They aren't slaves, right? They are employees and we are the "boss". The relationship is the same, the only difference is the source of the pay. One is taxes and the other is sales.

No, we can't just go out of business, start a different country and find a new staff to hire. We all pay for everything that the state does and we deserve to have the best quality services at the most equitable price.

Private and public anything is different and unions are no exception.

If we deserve to "have the best quality" why shouldn't we be expected to pay for it? Should public employees feel ecstatic over the opportunity to wipe our butts?

You want the best you gotta pay the price, right?

Yes, it is both a privilege and a shame to work for the state. A privilege because you are entrusted with carrying out a task presumably necessary to lawful and just governance. A shame because you are necessarily not participating in productive society.

WCmutant

greencmp
Why should public servants be allowed to unionize against the american people?

Should children be allowed to unionize against their parents?

The public sector union question is very different from trade unions.

The comparison is not exactly valid. Do you know any public servants that are unionized? You should talk to them.

Additionally, I've had this conversation with a lawyer. He was absolutely 100% happy about what happened in Wisconsin after Scott Walker took over. During the conversation I found out his wife was a teacher in Connecticut (unionized) and so I quickly said... "I'm guessing you want her union to be dismantled so she can potentially lose pay and benefits?"

What do you think his answer was?

Forgetting public sector unions, there are bigger fish to fry than the unions. Until we do something about CEO collusion and compensation bitching about unions is utter lunacy.

Yes, I have a close friend who is a teacher and they have destroyed our education system. She is terrified and has seen the seniority keeps of questionable validity while laying off the best new young talent.

greencmp
Yes, it is both a privilege and a shame to work for the state. A privilege because you are entrusted with carrying out a task presumably necessary to lawful and just governance. A shame because you are necessarily not participating in productive society.

Really?

WOW!

Thank God for unions!

Montana

greencmp
Yes, it is both a privilege and a shame to work for the state. A privilege because you are entrusted with carrying out a task presumably necessary to lawful and just governance. A shame because you are necessarily not participating in productive society.

Really?

WOW!

Thank God for unions!

What do you make? (stuff not money)

reply to post by greencmp


What does that have to do with this thread? Feel free to take anything personal to messaging instead.

Montana
reply to post by greencmp

 

What does that have to do with this thread? Feel free to take anything personal to messaging instead.

edit on 4/16/2014 by Montana because: (no reason given)

I just put up a thread.

ArtemisE


Some how the right has convinced its base that the concept of a union is inherently evil. Of course you can always point to corrupt union leaders, but you can also point to corrupt presidents. That doesn't mean the office of president is evil.


The real reason for the right to attack unions is because they donate to dems. It's got nothing to do with improving society it's about defunding the democrats. I just don't know how they managed to pull a switcheroo on there base. Undoubtably the ability for employees to come togather to negotiate with there employers is a good thing. It is almost the only check on the employer not raping there employees.


I just wonder if the people on the right see it for what it is... A tactic.

I don't think it has anything to do with Unions donating to Democrates per se, but the idea of 'collective bargaining' is anthema to the big business goals of keeping Workers from gaining power.

The decline of the so-called middle class collelates to the drop in Union Members and representation.

An interesting articles on the "Right's (nee Fascist)" agenda over the last 4+ decades can be found:

truth-out.org...

and

truth-out.org...

The later references speaks of the "Powell Memo" of the early 70's.

ArtemisE

Are unions inherently evil?

Are you married?

Oh...the other kind of union.

ArtemisE

The real reason for the right to attack unions is because they donate to dems.

Chicken or the egg? Unions donate to Dems because they advocate for them...

The John Birch society is a good place to research.

The Right believes in capitalism...like a religion.

In perfectly free market capitalism...Child Labor, 12 hour days/7days a week and slave wages are commonplace and if some piece of industrial machinery eats your arm, you are simply out of a job. We had something very close to that in the early 20th century.

Unions are a method of pushing back on the margins of capitalism that are harmful to a society. Where individuals lack money and power, they can band together and emulate both for common demands. Unions require 10s of thousands of people all contributing to even slow down a single lobbyist in DC with a millions to spend.

Unions also over-reach at times...while teacher unions are necessary to protect pensions in otherwise low-paying and often thankless jobs...they desperately need tenure reform to get rid of crappy teachers. Also in the 60's the MOB infiltrated unions for their own economic and political purposes, though that is far rarer today.