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Are unions inherently evil?

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posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 02:58 PM
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greencmp

tinner07
reply to post by greencmp
 


What I am saying is, nobody is forced to join a union. If you want to work in a union shop you have to join the union, but you can choose not to take the job.

If you don't want to swim, don't take a job as a lifeguard, you don't want deal with blood, don't become a surgeon, don't want to join a union, don't apply at a union shop.

I have worked in many union sheet metal shops and we have had non union employees. They were not sheet metal workers though. Truck drivers and such.


The OP's question was inquiring as to why unions are considered ultimately evil and destructive to society.

When a group of employees agree to consolidate their negotiations that is one thing. When these associations merge and become massive institutions, that is another.

Most of the perceived anti-union sentiment is actually anti-public-sector-union which is a completely different conversation.

There is no excuse for public sector unions, they must be eradicated.


How is that any different from large corporations banding together to form lobbies and special interest groups like ALEC? I'm going to type out a power hierarchy and I'd like to know if you disagree with its validity here in terms of governmental influence:

individual < union < corporation < corporate lobby/special interest

Is that true? If it isn't true, why not?




posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 03:04 PM
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WhiteAlice

greencmp

tinner07
reply to post by greencmp
 


What I am saying is, nobody is forced to join a union. If you want to work in a union shop you have to join the union, but you can choose not to take the job.

If you don't want to swim, don't take a job as a lifeguard, you don't want deal with blood, don't become a surgeon, don't want to join a union, don't apply at a union shop.

I have worked in many union sheet metal shops and we have had non union employees. They were not sheet metal workers though. Truck drivers and such.


The OP's question was inquiring as to why unions are considered ultimately evil and destructive to society.

When a group of employees agree to consolidate their negotiations that is one thing. When these associations merge and become massive institutions, that is another.

Most of the perceived anti-union sentiment is actually anti-public-sector-union which is a completely different conversation.

There is no excuse for public sector unions, they must be eradicated.


How is that any different from large corporations banding together to form lobbies and special interest groups like ALEC? I'm going to type out a power hierarchy and I'd like to know if you disagree with its validity here in terms of governmental influence:

individual < union < corporation < corporate lobby/special interest

Is that true? If it isn't true, why not?


Many large corporations are unionized and their boards reflect that.

BTW, I started another thread that talks about public sector unions so as not to derail.
edit on 16-4-2014 by greencmp because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 03:09 PM
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greencmp
Free voluntary associations of citizens are not inherently evil. However, unionism has many problems not least of which being the tendency to be mandatory in any given shop or trade. Also, the use of violence and intimidation to prevent non-union workers from supplying labor is criminal.
So free riders should get the same wages and benefits as their union member co-workers? Naw...I don't think so.



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 03:14 PM
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JohnnyCanuck

greencmp
Free voluntary associations of citizens are not inherently evil. However, unionism has many problems not least of which being the tendency to be mandatory in any given shop or trade. Also, the use of violence and intimidation to prevent non-union workers from supplying labor is criminal.
So free riders should get the same wages and benefits as their union member co-workers? Naw...I don't think so.


Yes, workers shouldn't be bullied into paying protection money to any gang. Frankly, non-union workers should negotiate for more money considering the productivity increases they offer.



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 03:16 PM
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reply to post by ArtemisE
 

Curious...Are you now or have you ever belonged to a union yourself?

MS
*(past and current member of)
A F of M Local 5
AFSCME local 1583
UAW
PPAN Local 104

edit on 09-22-2013 by mysterioustranger because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 03:27 PM
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greencmp
Yes, workers shouldn't be bullied into paying protection money to any gang. Frankly, non-union workers should negotiate for more money considering the productivity increases they offer.
Let's compare Walmart vs Costco? Cuz I think your data is rectally sourced.



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 03:32 PM
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JohnnyCanuck

greencmp
Yes, workers shouldn't be bullied into paying protection money to any gang. Frankly, non-union workers should negotiate for more money considering the productivity increases they offer.
Let's compare Walmart vs Costco? Cuz I think your data is rectally sourced.


You don't think Walmart employees should negotiate for more money?

This is an interesting take on the Walmart/Costco comparison.

Why Can’t Walmart Be More Like Costco?
edit on 16-4-2014 by greencmp because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 03:38 PM
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greencmp

JohnnyCanuck

greencmp
Yes, workers shouldn't be bullied into paying protection money to any gang. Frankly, non-union workers should negotiate for more money considering the productivity increases they offer.
Let's compare Walmart vs Costco? Cuz I think your data is rectally sourced.


You don't think Walmart employees should negotiate for more money?
How, pray tell, do Walmart employees negotiate anything?



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 03:43 PM
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A union is a tool, it is the use/abuse of said tool by people that is evil. The evil comes from people. It is purest form a Union is about the prevention of worker abuse, but it is the human aspect that tends to cause things to spiral down an evil path.

Just like how the original need for unions was due to evil things done to the workers by the heads of corporations.

As an animal we are deeply flawed.

Derek



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 04:05 PM
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It's one thing to organize to protect yourself from abusive management practices. It is another thing entirely when your own contracts and rules start to hold you back professionally.

My husband sees it as a company person who works with a campus that deals with a union.

If he wants to hire someone to fill a union position, he can't simply advertise the job in question, look at the applicants, interview them and then choose whom he feels to be the most qualified as he can with any of his open company positions. He has to post the opening and he has to offer it by seniority ranking across the entire plant. He has to entertain any of his union applicants by order of their seniority no matter what they were doing before. So, if someone with more qualification is lower graded with less seniority, he can't entertain that person until all the higher ranking union members pass up the opening.

How is that right? He can and has wound up with under-qualified people in the job just because they had seniority and the rules said he had to and for no other reason, and this while a perfectly qualified and eager person was right there waiting to take the job.

He also can't reward his union people like he can any of his company people. They get compensated by union rules and union contract. That means they get their raises according to how many years they've worked, and they get their bonuses or overtime according to the same. If one or more of them has distinguished themselves, he can't recommend them like he can any of his company people, and believe, he has wanted to. He simply can't. It's against the rules.

Trying to discipline any of them is like negotiating high school because there are so many layers of committees and hearings that it devolves into "he said - she said" pretty quickly. You can't simply have a talk and call it done like you can with any of the company employees, escalating it to HR as needed. You have to deal with stewards and disciplinary hearings at multiple levels and even then, it may not do any good. It's like high school clique fights.

And it gets in the way of work. He can't help any of his union people if they're running behind. He can't let them pick up any of the slack for anyone else either. If he helps or any of his company people helps them, they (or any other union person who happens to see) can file a grievance against the company and its employees for attempting to take away union work, nevermind that it needed to be done and done quickly and there were extra hands that could have helped do it. And if a union person ever helps with a company task, then the union forever after considers it a union task and thinks they have a right to call it theirs and will file a grievance when they do not get to keep doing it. And if you are not careful and about who and how you delegate your union workers, you can violate their contracts by asking them to do work that is outside their job description, and then, you guessed it, they can file a grievance against you.

All of this means that the union can be enormously inefficient and unproductive when it wants to be.

In fact, the union dug in its heels and refused to sign its contract once for about a week, and every company person went on the line, even the high and mighty PhDs. They outperformed and out-produced the union for that week even though many had been desk jockeys for years.



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by ketsuko
 

On the other hand, I have seen HR call me as a Chief Steward, to broker meetings so that unionised staff could speak frankly about bad management. Nobody gets a union that doesn't deserve one, and a collective agreement is mutually negotiated as a set of rules between management and staff. I worked for could be called an 'enlightened' employer...and I was a very busy guy keeping them playing by the rules.



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by greencmp
 


I wasn't talking about any specific union in particular but unions in general. How is employee representation within corporate governance a bad thing? Boards for corporations are meant to represent the various interests of the stakeholders of a corporation. Shareholders are also represented within the board of a corporation and, typically, the CEO is also a member of that board. Why is it bad to have someone who represents the non-executive workers within that board as well?

P.S. You didn't quite answer my question as to whether that hierarchy of power is correct or not.
edit on 16/4/14 by WhiteAlice because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 04:44 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


This same union I am talking about has pretty much driven every other major business out of the town in question. They're on the verge of pushing themselves out of this business, too.

This is a town union not one that started in response to the company being there.
edit on 16-4-2014 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 04:55 PM
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WhiteAlice
reply to post by greencmp
 


I wasn't talking about any specific union in particular but unions in general. How is employee representation within corporate governance a bad thing? Boards for corporations are meant to represent the various interests of the stakeholders of a corporation. Shareholders are also represented within the board of a corporation and, typically, the CEO is also a member of that board. Why is it bad to have someone who represents the non-executive workers within that board as well?

P.S. You didn't quite answer my question as to whether that hierarchy of power is correct or not.
edit on 16/4/14 by WhiteAlice because: (no reason given)


You were reacting to comments made regarding public sector unions.



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 04:57 PM
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I was a union member for a while. LIUNA, affiliated with the AFL-CIO back then. All they ever did was to take money out of my paycheck. They were corrupt as hell. In the end the local went bust and so did our pension fund. I'm in management now and no fan unions. Once upon I time they were needed. Not any more.



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 06:04 PM
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greencmp

WhiteAlice
reply to post by greencmp
 


I wasn't talking about any specific union in particular but unions in general. How is employee representation within corporate governance a bad thing? Boards for corporations are meant to represent the various interests of the stakeholders of a corporation. Shareholders are also represented within the board of a corporation and, typically, the CEO is also a member of that board. Why is it bad to have someone who represents the non-executive workers within that board as well?

P.S. You didn't quite answer my question as to whether that hierarchy of power is correct or not.
edit on 16/4/14 by WhiteAlice because: (no reason given)


You were reacting to comments made regarding public sector unions.


No, actually, it was a general question stimulated by many of your statements in regards to unions, which you still haven't answered. Nor did you answer the new ones either.



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 06:14 PM
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greencmp

JohnnyCanuck

greencmp
Yes, workers shouldn't be bullied into paying protection money to any gang. Frankly, non-union workers should negotiate for more money considering the productivity increases they offer.
Let's compare Walmart vs Costco? Cuz I think your data is rectally sourced.


You don't think Walmart employees should negotiate for more money?

This is an interesting take on the Walmart/Costco comparison.

Why Can’t Walmart Be More Like Costco?
edit on 16-4-2014 by greencmp because: (no reason given)


You're 100% correct, they should negotiate. Gee.. if only there was a way for workers to band together and negotiate better wages.. Oh yea, that's called unionizing!

It never ceases to amaze me how eager people are to swallow the right's anti-labor garbage. The standard response is always, "Unions were necessary in the past but not anymore." Why not? Because big business is headed up by a new breed of captains of industry who put ethics ahead of profit? Oh wait, "Because we have labor laws that protect workers." Sure we do, assuming you can afford an attorney or get the labor board interested enough to actually fit you in their years long queue.



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 06:19 PM
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Cyberspy
I'm in management now and no fan unions. Once upon I time they were needed. Not any more.
Again, nonsense. I was a chief steward and was very busy winning grievances.



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 06:32 PM
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FlyersFan
Unions started out as a VERY good thing. Very much needed. They did a lot of good.
However, as time went on, they corrupted. This happens when power and money are involved.
The unions are no longer even a shadow of what they started out to be.
Their time of doing good is over.


Wrong!........

With out my Union I would have no Health plan, retirement, recourse if hurt on the job or ability to negotiate my pay.

I'm a Proud member of SAG/AFTRA and IATSE!!! I feel my union dues are money well spent for the benefits I receive.

The production companies provide nothing except wages to the people that make the TV programs, Movies, Music you listen to, or any of the entertainment you enjoy. If you watch TV, you have probably seen some of my work!

Even your holy one Rush is a member of SAG/AFTRA; even though that hypocrite bashes unions every chance he gets.

edit on 16-4-2014 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2014 @ 06:33 PM
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JohnnyCanuck

Cyberspy
I'm in management now and no fan unions. Once upon I time they were needed. Not any more.
Again, nonsense. I was a chief steward and was very busy winning grievances.


Who was doing the work you were getting paid for and not doing while you were doing this?



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