Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

Alec Luhn @ASLuhn Crowd outside of parliament in Kiev are demanding armed invasion of eastern Ukraine. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail 21 mins ago 9 retweets | 1 replies

all2human
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Ukraine has zero chance of taking on Russia militarily,it's not going to happen,the will of the people of Ukraine will not support it nor have they
you can put your action figures away now.

Another example demonstrating the purpose and continued existence of NATO.

Xcathdra:

Russian Lawmakers Demand Criminal Case Against Gorbachev Over Soviet Union Collapse

Vladimir Putin: The rebuilding of ‘Soviet’ Russia

Jubilant Putin urged to snatch back Belarus and Kazakhstan as demonstrations celebrating Crimea secession erupt across Russia

New age of discord as Putin rips up post-Soviet order

Putin’s new empire After Crimea, will Russia pursue on more land grabs?

Not a single one of those links support your stance. Every single one of them is a western hit piece of opinion, with no real facts to back them up. I was hoping you would have come back at me with a none self-evidential piece of your own thinking. You can believe what you want, you are entitled to it, and indeed, if you provide me with something I had not thought about or even considered, I am more than happy to change my stance.

Apart from the Blade and RIA Novosti, I had already seen the other articles. The BBC is reporting nothing but Western bias, as is the Daily Mail, which is considered a very laughable rag here in England. Even the Telegraph and the Guardian are biased to Western intentions, but I still read them in order to maintain a stance of advocacy.

The Ukrainians will sort this crisis out one way or another, and the West should stick its nose deep in its own business. Obviously, with the revelation that the CIA chief was in Kiev, no doubt consulting with the current administrative ad hoc Ukrainian government on what the West would like him to do, y'know, pulling his strings, it is clear now that the CIA has been behind the Ukrainian side of fomenting discord which has now been matched with the equal and opposite force of pro-Russians. Putin will not let Ukraine fall into Western hands nor matter how much the West will seek to try and grasp it...it just isn't going to happen.

Putin will wait to see how the proposed May referendum goes. If it goes against him, he will not mobilise Russian troops to enter the Ukraine, but will consolidate what he has now, and bolster his borders with Ukraine. The grass roots people of Ukraine, of all ethnicities will decide their own fate. Neither the West or Russia will decide it for them. Putin will only intervene in Ukraine where Western influence is active and fomenting discord between the various ethnicities. That is why Russian troops are stationed along Ukraine's Eastern borders. They are not their for Ukraine, but for whatever the West hopes to achieve.

Julia Ioffe @juliaioffe #Ukraine 's military pulls up to #Sloviansk. Looks like it's going to be an interesting night. m.facebook.com/EuroMaydan/pos… 16 mins ago 20 retweets | 6 replies

dragonridr

asen_y2k

Xcathdra
reply to post by renden

 

No I live on Earth.

How about you research the 2012 elections for Ukraine's parliament and then compare that list to who is in parliament now.

It is the government the Ukrainians elected in 2012.

And they may throw them out onto the streets now.

Well they may be right to do so partly because im seeing just a major lack of governance. If Kiev pervade a strong image right now alot of this wouldnt be happening but they keep running around not sure what to do or how to act. Its almost like there purposefully being ineffectual. Hey if its anything like our congress there probably on the take and someone's paying them to do just that.

I wouldn't say a major 'lack of governance'. They're giving orders but they're not being carried out because the coup-imposed govt doesn't have the support of the people. . .

When the police/military lay down their weapons & switch sides, you have an internal problem.

asen_y2k:

Julia Ioffe @juliaioffe #Ukraine 's military pulls up to #Sloviansk. Looks like it's going to be an interesting night.

How unremarkable and unsurprising that Ukrainian troops did not go in at the passing deadline Monday morning! Obviously, the CIA chief wanted his consultation and say, and to pass on Obama's instructions to the Ukrainian ad hoc government. Now that he has had his say, troops are suddenly materialising. They should have gone in at the earlier deadline, but going in now will speak volumes to Putin, whom will use the CIA chief's presence as justification for tit-for-tat response against, not the Ukrainians, but against Western influence, which is Putin's target all along. Putin has no choice but to rebut Western influence in the Ukraine, he really has no choice.

A similar situation would be Obama having no choice but to rebut Russian influence occurring in Cuba, now isn't that a telling historical issue! Yet when Putin does what Kennedy once did, he's an expansionist for former Soviet Territory. More hypocritical irony!

DJW001
reply to post by renden

 

An armed coup took place in Kiev, and it's government is ruled by men with guns, men of the Right Sector, the Neo-Nazi puppets of their controllers.

That is a bare faced lie. Members of Right Sector have been arrested. The Neo-Nazis are suspected of being controlled from Moscow. Crimea was seized by armed Russian troops, and that is a fact.

Prove it. Then I'll post video of Svoboda party Nazis starting a fist fight and beating up an anti-Nazi speaker at the parliament.

If you can't prove it, yet remain firm in your position then by fact it's no longer your opinion, it will be your chosen position, that of a Nazi sympathizer.

Just today a KKK member stepped out of his car, and shot dead two Jews, do you support that as well?

Be honest now, no reason to hide your true feelings.

I'd be Interested in seeing some proof of all these Nazi claims.

Seems that if you don't support Putin you are branded a NAZI.

Well show us some evidence.

VoiceOfDonetsk @ VoiceOfDonetsk · 16 mins
Indeed, confirm that Donetsk activists shot checkpoint separatists! Here is such patriotism in Donetsk!

Russian Market‏@russian_market·1 min
Hearing reports on shooting at the entrance to Donetsk: unknown persons open gunfire on pro-Russian activists; at least 10 killed. God.

Is it beginning at last?

elysiumfire
Xcathdra:

Russian Lawmakers Demand Criminal Case Against Gorbachev Over Soviet Union Collapse

Vladimir Putin: The rebuilding of ‘Soviet’ Russia

Jubilant Putin urged to snatch back Belarus and Kazakhstan as demonstrations celebrating Crimea secession erupt across Russia

New age of discord as Putin rips up post-Soviet order

Putin’s new empire After Crimea, will Russia pursue on more land grabs?

Not a single one of those links support your stance. Every single one of them is a western hit piece of opinion, with no real facts to back them up. I was hoping you would have come back at me with a none self-evidential piece of your own thinking. You can believe what you want, you are entitled to it, and indeed, if you provide me with something I had not thought about or even considered, I am more than happy to change my stance.

Apart from the Blade and RIA Novosti, I had already seen the other articles. The BBC is reporting nothing but Western bias, as is the Daily Mail, which is considered a very laughable rag here in England. Even the Telegraph and the Guardian are biased to Western intentions, but I still read them in order to maintain a stance of advocacy.

The Ukrainians will sort this crisis out one way or another, and the West should stick its nose deep in its own business. Obviously, with the revelation that the CIA chief was in Kiev, no doubt consulting with the current administrative ad hoc Ukrainian government on what the West would like him to do, y'know, pulling his strings, it is clear now that the CIA has been behind the Ukrainian side of fomenting discord which has now been matched with the equal and opposite force of pro-Russians. Putin will not let Ukraine fall into Western hands nor matter how much the West will seek to try and grasp it...it just isn't going to happen.

Putin will wait to see how the proposed May referendum goes. If it goes against him, he will not mobilise Russian troops to enter the Ukraine, but will consolidate what he has now, and bolster his borders with Ukraine. The grass roots people of Ukraine, of all ethnicities will decide their own fate. Neither the West or Russia will decide it for them. Putin will only intervene in Ukraine where Western influence is active and fomenting discord between the various ethnicities. That is why Russian troops are stationed along Ukraine's Eastern borders. They are not their for Ukraine, but for whatever the West hopes to achieve.

edit on 14/4/14 by elysiumfire because: (no reason given)

It was a pleasure reading your post sir. I share your views and applaud your logic.

Cheers.

renden

DJW001
reply to post by renden

 

An armed coup took place in Kiev, and it's government is ruled by men with guns, men of the Right Sector, the Neo-Nazi puppets of their controllers.

That is a bare faced lie. Members of Right Sector have been arrested. The Neo-Nazis are suspected of being controlled from Moscow. Crimea was seized by armed Russian troops, and that is a fact.

Prove it. Then I'll post video of Svoboda party Nazis starting a fist fight and beating up an anti-Nazi speaker at the parliament.

If you can't prove it, yet remain firm in your position then by fact it's no longer your opinion, it will be your chosen position, that of a Nazi sympathizer.

Just today a KKK member stepped out of his car, and shot dead two Jews, do you support that as well?

Be honest now, no reason to hide your true feelings.

You are nothing more than a troll when you have to start using whats called a straw man equating a situation involving the KKK with Ukraine when it has nothing to do with it. your also doing whats referred to as name calling these tactics are only employed when your on the losing end of an argument.Now it is fact a fact that the Svoboda party has indeed been arrested they were inciting a riot against the government of Kiev. I guess they didnt tell you this on RT because it destroys their narrative.No since only one person was changed from the government before Maiden my question becomes was the government that Putin previously supported Nazis?

Xcathdra
reply to post by intrptr

 

A few pages back I stated his visit could have been to brief Ukraine's leaders direct instead of turning over classified information to them and risking it landing in Russian hands.

R...i...g...h...t, and I'm the Easter Bunny and have some of Saddam's nuclear weapons to sell you.....on the cheap

No one here truly believes the CIA is there for benevolent reasons, as if they have no skin in the game. They fomented this whole mess to begin with and now they are trying to get this train wreck back on track.

reply to post by Xcathdra

However, the purpose of his visit is not confirmed and even Russian media has stated over and over they cannot confirm the information of what his visit was for.

Well, allow me. He met with all the CIA operatives there, the usurpers in Kiev, delivered plans for support and "where do we go from here", plus a boatload of cash.

Send lawyers, guns, and money… and get me out of this. --Warren Zevon

dragonridr: What a great avatar you have. Love the little smoking dragon.

reply to post by intrptr

Well, allow me. He met with all the CIA operatives there, the usurpers in Kiev, delivered plans for support and "where do we go from here", plus a boatload of cash.

How do you know this? Can you support it with any evidence whatsoever?

elysiumfire
Not a single one of those links support your stance. Eve..nsipped for easier reading me with something I had not thought about or even considered, I am more than happy to change my stance.

read the transcripts of Putin's speeches over the last few weeks. Look at his comments on the over all situation. Its not hard to see where he is going based on his actions thus far (Ukraine / Moldova / Baltic States). His viewpoint that the Soviet Union collapse was illegal and that there are millions of "Russians" who went to bed one night and woke up in another country the next day.

He seems to ignore the fact those Russians that lived there could live there because they were occupied by the Soviet Union at the time. When the collapse occurred, those SSR's became independent nations. Just because Russians moved / lived there does not allow Putin to reclaim those lands.

Read his speech to the Duma when Crimea / Sevastopol were annexed.

elysiumfire
Apart from the Blade and RIA Novosti, I had already seen the other articles. The BBC is reporting nothing but Western bias, as is the Daily Mail, which is considered a very laughable rag here in England. Even the Telegraph and the Guardian are biased to Western intentions, but I still read them in order to maintain a stance of advocacy.

Right and Russian media are all government controlled and are more court stenographer than media outlets.

This part here is one we will need to agree to disagree on since we don't put much faith in each others media choices.

elysiumfire
The Ukrainians will sort this crisis out one way or another, and the West should stick its nose deep in its own business.

This point I don't understand the logic behind. The US is very much involved because of the Budapest agreement. We are involved because we were asked by Ukraine to help. As for Ukrainians needing to sort it out? I agree with that and support it 100%.

My concern is how to fix it. With the history between Russian and Ukraine how does one determine who could lawfully vote in those referendums should they occur? As a side note that was another anomaly with the no insignia people. If those people, Ukrainians as Putin keeps stating, felt so strongly then why did they hide who they were? It really makes no sense to start an uprising, yelling to the world only to hide in the shadows. There are strategic reasons for that but we can talk about it later.

elysiumfire
Obviously, with the revelation that the CIA chief was in Kiev, no doubt consulting with the current administrative ad hoc Ukrainian government on what the West would like him to do, y'know, pulling his strings, it is clear now that the CIA has been behind the Ukrainian side of fomenting discord which has now been matched with the equal and opposite force of pro-Russians. Putin will not let Ukraine fall into Western hands nor matter how much the West will seek to try and grasp it...it just isn't going to happen.

Actually its not obvious and we don't know what was discussed. There is no clear anything to support CIA involvement. Do you have any sources that discusses that issue and has evidence to support it?

The comment about not letting Ukraine fall into western hands run 10000% contrary to his position as well as yours. How can you advocate Ukraine being allowed to sort out their affairs and then state Putin wont allow them, a sovereign nation, to determine their own foreign policies?

This is not the cold war and Russia is not the Soviet Union. They days where they dictated policy to SSR's is over with.

elysiumfire
Putin will wait to see how the proposed May referendum goes. If it goes against him, he will not mobilise Russian troops to enter the Ukraine, but will consolidate what he has now, and bolster his borders with Ukraine.

The border is already bolster by 10's of thousands of Russian military units.

I will wager Putin will act prior to the may elections. His position on turning Ukraine into a Federation is something he knew Kiev would never accept, and to date they have. When it was announced they were willing to add that question to the may elections, Russia got quiet. Not only that they called a UNSC meeting to discuss the spike in violence.

Why?

If Ukraine allows a referendum it will be run from Kiev. Russia will not be able to affect an outcome like they did in Crimea. Ukraine called Russia's bluff and now Russia is trying to find a new method to achieve their goals.

elysiumfire
The grass roots people of Ukraine, of all ethnicities will decide their own fate. Neither the West or Russia will decide it for them.

How did that work out for the Tartars in Crimea?
Secondly, a coup occurred in Crimea. Masked armed gunmen seized government buildings and removed the elected Prime Minister there arbitrarily appointing a new one with no elections. So again Russia is dictating terms.

Russia complains about the government in Kiev not doing anything to stop the protests in the east, while at the same time telling Ukraine they cannot use force o they will get involved.

Please explain to me how that works?

elysiumfire
Putin will only intervene in Ukraine where Western influence is active and fomenting discord between the various ethnicities. That is why Russian troops are stationed along Ukraine's Eastern borders. They are not their for Ukraine, but for whatever the West hopes to achieve.

I could not read that last comment without laughing and I am impressed you could type it and take it seriously.

Russia does not dictate to the US.
The US does not dictate to Russia.

If the US talks to Poland and they want the NMD system, its absolutely none of Russia's business. That argument by Putin works in both directions.

reply to post by renden

Prove it. Then I'll post video of Svoboda party Nazis starting a fist fight and beating up an anti-Nazi speaker at the parliament.

Do you trust RT?

Ukraine’s acting interior minister urged the far-right group Right Sector to vacate its HQ in Kiev after a downtown shootout instigated by one of its members injured three, including deputy mayor Bogdan Dubas.

Earlier, Avakov stated that he was intimidated by the Right Sector with revenge threats. Over 1,500 nationalists from the Right Sector circled the Ukrainian parliament in Kiev threatening to storm it on Thursday if Avakov did not resign.

[Edit for brevity--DJW001]

Avakov stated that he will pursue justice even if it means facing resignation in the future, adding that he will continue the fight.

rt.com...

Not even RT can maintain the fiction that Svoboda and Right Sector are in power in Ukraine.

If you can't prove it, yet remain firm in your position then by fact it's no longer your opinion, it will be your chosen position, that of a Nazi sympathizer.

How dare you call me a Nazi sympathizer. I detest everything the Nazis stood for, which is why I detest Putin. The comparisons to Hitler are not name calling. Germans celebrated the early Nazi victories, just as Russians are celebrating Putin's conquests. You do not realize the pain you will eventually feel. Ask a German over the age of seventy.

Just today a KKK member stepped out of his car, and shot dead two Jews, do you support that as well?

Be honest now, no reason to hide your true feelings.

No, I detest the KKK even more than I detest Putin, and his stupid, brainwashed thugs.

Rosinitiate
R...i...g...h...t, and I'm the Easter Bunny and have some of Saddam's nuclear weapons to sell you.....on the cheap

then how about you hop back thru the thread and read my post.

Rosinitiate
No one here truly believes the CIA is there for benevolent reasons, as if they have no skin in the game. They fomented this whole mess to begin with and now they are trying to get this train wreck back on track.

Feel free to post your sources that supports your claims.

reply to post by intrptr


Then post the source where it confirms what you are stating. All Russian media I have seen covering this states they cannot confirm the rumors.

reply to post by DJW001

How do you know this? Can you support it with any evidence whatsoever?

Oh, its purely conjecture on my part. Maybe he's on vacation. Remember, the only reason US admitted it was because the Russian media exposed it. US couldn't hide it any longer.

Gotta be some kind of clue.

Maybe he should have covered his tracks and handed out food parcels to the "protesters" in Kiev.