If you can Ionize the air just in front of a fast moving aircraft, Rocket, Car would it reduce the d

If you can Ionize the air just in front of a fast moving aircraft, Rocket, Car as it moves through the atmosphere would it reduce the drag?

Would it be possible to do this fast enough and in sufficient quantity in front of a Rocket to allow it to launch into space without experiencing the drag of flying through the atmosphere?

Could you use something similar to fly back through the atmosphere without having to use heat tiles or heat shields?

reply to post by Xeven


Why ionize it? You could just create a vacuum in front of the vehicle... remove the air entirely.

reply to post by Xeven


Are you for real ?

reply to post by Xeven


If you could control it yes.

I saw a demonstration of this about 10 years back.

What happened was the object had a form of plasma fired out in front. It would effectively get sucked into the low pressure/vacuum that had just been created in front of it, with zero air resistance/friction, causing the object to accelerate at a rate that is practically impossible for any large object to withstand, using mankind's current understanding of aircraft construction.

The demonstration I saw was of a tiny saucer shaped craft (Scientist's questioning how Aliens might fly) that had very few parts to make it up. The saucer was propelled/sucked straight upward... I do not know the actual speed that the test resulted but it was phenomenally fast; a guess would put it at 0mph - 250mph in about .2 of a second - it was very, very fast. If the object had been scaled up at all it would have disintegrated due to the amount of acceleration. Here is where they stopped testing. It was uncontrollable and they were unable to use it for that fact that running it for even 1 second would make the craft accelerate beyond practical application.

It's a good idea but could you imagine how fast a space shuttle would go under the pull of Earths gravity with zero resistance - terminal velocity wouldn't exist.

There are many who believe that this technology is already in use by the B2 bomber platform.
starburstfound.org...

I can't answer your first part of your post, but as for your second part where you asked:

Xeven
Could you use something similar to fly back through the atmosphere without having to use heat tiles or heat shields?

As 'crazyfool' alluded to in his post above, the atmospheric drag that causes spacecraft (such as the space shuttle) to heat up is required to slow down the returning craft. Without the heat-causing drag, these spacecraft would be returning back to earth to fast to be able to stop safely.

It is this ONLY drag that slows the shuttle down to landing speeds, and ONLY this drag that slowed down the Apollo capsule enough to deploy chutes and splash down safely. The Russian Soyuz also have a retro rocket, but that rocket only slows them down a little right at landing. The drag of the atmosphere did most of the work slowing the craft down to a safe landing speed.

I do not see how this would work, maybe, maybe not. Understanding air temprature when low is more dense, molecules of oxygen are closer together and reduces density as temps rise, would ionization drop the level of O2 or the other elements that make up the air? Would the energy consumed to create the ionization or a vacuum be more useful for propulsion? You would do better seeking anti gravity technology utilizing magnetics and frequency manipulation IMHO...

clay2 baraka
There are many who believe that this technology is already in use by the B2 bomber platform.
starburstfound.org...

That is one of at least two possibilities (that electrifying the wing might reduce drag). Another possibility is that it could be done to alter (reduce) the radar reflection.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Phage
The reason for charging the leading edge and exhaust is secret. But there is no shortage of ideas.

For reasons not yet de-classified, the B-2 charges its leading edge to a very high electrical potential difference from its exhaust stream.
It has been suggested (by Jane's Defence) that it augments the B-2's low thrust main engines. It is also a well known phenomenon that an ionised gas (plasma) will scatter a radar beam far more effectively than a solid surface of any conceivable shape. This could be the purpose of the high voltage leading edge. Another possibility is that it is for the purpose of reducing drag, since the leading edge of the B-2 might then move through a partial vacuum of ionised air which may be ionised and repelled by the high voltage. In any case, it is however true that Northrop engineers conducted wind tunnel tests using high voltage on a testbed wing leading edge to reduce supersonic drag as far back as 1968. These tests were with a view to breaking up the airflow ahead of the wing using electrical forces in order to soften a sonic boom. How this applies (if indeed it does at all) to the B-2 after an interval of many years is uncertain.

en.allexperts.com...

TT Brown ion propulsion

in 1945 TT Brown demonstrated his latest flying tethered discs to a top military officer—Admiral Arthur W. Radford, commander-in-chief for the U.S. Pacific Fleet, who later became Joint Chief of Staff for President Dwight Eisenhower.



When he returned to his room after the Pearl Harbor demonstration, how-ever, the room had been broken into and his notebooks were gone. A day or so later, as Josh Reynolds remembers Brown's account of the incident,

"they came to him and said 'we have your work; you'll get it back.' A couple of days later they gave him back his books and said 'we're not interested.'"

"Why?"

Brown was given the answer that the effect was a result of ion propulsion, or electric wind, and therefore could not be used in a vacuum such as outer space. The earth's atmosphere can be rich in ions (electrically-charged particles), but a vacuum is not

reply to post by Xeven


Most of the replies on here aren't really correct it doesn't use anti grav and that TT brown article is just not correct at all..

However the B-2 does use plasma stealth, which in turn would help with drag.

reply to post by Xeven


im pretty sure something like this has been tried on some of the stealth / high speed craft.

I know they tried to modify the shock wave with a plasma spike

Experiments were conducted in a Mach 2.5 wind tunnel to explore the modification effect on the shock wave structure by a plasma spike generated by an on-board 60Hz electric discharge in front of a 60° cone-shaped model, which is used as a shock wave generator. Due to cyclic nature of the generated plasma an unsteady shock motion during one discharge period was observed. The pronounced influence of plasma on the shock structure is clearly demonstrated by the result, at the peak of the discharge, showing a transformation of the shock from a well defined attached shock into a classic highly curved bow shock structure, which also appears in diffused form. Experimental results exclude the heating effect as a possible cause of the observed shock wave modification. A theory using a wedge model as the shock generator is developed to introduce a non-heating mechanism responsible for the observed plasma effect on shock waves. Analysis shows that the plasma spike can effectively deflect the incoming flow before the flow reaches the wedge consequently the shock structure in the interaction region is modified from an oblique one to a slightly curved one. The shock front moves upstream with a larger shock angle, consistent with the experimental results.

iopscience.iop.org...

Wonder if you could design something like HARP on the ground top plow a path through the atmosphere for Launch vehicles to carry more weight.

reply to post by crzayfool


Okay, your post sounds pretty freaking awesome if you actually witnessed something like that. If you don't mind me asking, where did you see this demonstration? Details? Photos / Video clips?

You've sparked my curiosity!

parad0x122
reply to post by crzayfool

 

Okay, your post sounds pretty freaking awesome if you actually witnessed something like that. If you don't mind me asking, where did you see this demonstration? Details? Photos / Video clips?

You've sparked my curiosity!

That video looks like some pseudoscientific woo-woo. I'd like to see a proper lab experiment.

reply to post by wildespace


What video, the one posted by Blowback near the top?

parad0x122
reply to post by wildespace

 

What video, the one posted by Blowback near the top?

Yes, sorry, I got the posters mixed up.

Imagine a Big Black Triangle. lets say lighter than air inside a carbon shell.

On each point place an ultrasound generator that is computer aimed and can freely rotate to any desired angle. The generators fire their beams forwards focusing on a point in the distance and create a corridor where drag is massively lower than outside that said corridor. Engines facing AWAY from the corridor push against the pressure differential behind so it stays static (would appear to hover)

Now, our vehicle would need a controlled manner to proceed or else the acceleration would be near instantaneous. Well, in a controlled manner lower your rearward thrust and the pressure behind would push you down said corridor.

A nice easy way to prevent self destruction, avoid sonic booms (you hear a small pop as the corridor collapses in on itself as the craft passes) and 'leap' point to point appearing to have no visible power source (Bury the engines in a rotating gimble so the craft can twist and flip as desired)

Unmanned, well, that's an identical scenario but the acceleration could be far higher.

I'd also add an electrical charge to the vehicle shell to make life really interesting

If someone has the time and resources I have found some paint that might work.

Paint

What I suggest if you have time and resource is to get this paint and some of those Rockets from hobby store. Paint them and add a battery and launch it to see how it does. Of course get another exact rocket and test it without the pain.

If I get some time I might try it but wont be soon. Lots going on at work and not spare time.

originally posted by: crzayfool
reply to post by Xeven

 

If you could control it yes.

I saw a demonstration of this about 10 years back.

Sorry, if I bump this again. But as has been said before, certainly quite some people would be interested in some more details. E.g how exactly did this propulsion work? Where was it demonstrated, by whom? What size, weight?
How was it powered? etc...

I personally cannot really believe, that such a system would not be further developed, as even if it really would not be usable as a craft engine, it would be a very good weaponry.

a reply to: hulli

Hi, again.

I will look into this further and try find a video link for you all to look at.

I will say now that I did not witness this first hand with my own eyes. It was from a documentary I saw as a teenager. (apologies if I didn't make that clear in my post).

Nonetheless, I will still search for the experiment and get back to you.