Does Going to Church make you a better person?

Of course going to church doesn't make you a better person, look at the "ain't no homo gonna make it to heaven" video from a couple of years ago. I'd even argue that going to church makes you an even worse person in some cases.

It is not how many times you go to Church, it is how you live your life!
You can go to church 7 times a week and still be a nasty person, you can go to church once a year and be a great person.
Its the small personal sacrifice that matters eg, going out of your way to help the little old lady with her shopping or helping a friend out financially when you know you cannot afford it, it's putting the spider out of the house safely even though you are petrified of them. ITS DOING THINGS FOR NO REWARD that matters. So, you going to church with the woman you wish to be with to make her happy is the sacrifice YOU make in order to be happy with the woman you want be with!?! Mmmm worth thinking about, both are a commitment and you going to the church even if you play lip service to her is not a relationship based on lies its a relationship based on sacrifice to be happy. Enjoy what you have with the lady mate you are only sacrificing 52 days of a 365 day year and i assure you the remainder of the year you will have a great life.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
Of course going to church doesn't make you a better person, look at the "ain't no homo gonna make it to heaven" video from a couple of years ago. I'd even argue that going to church makes you an even worse person in some cases.

Ok I agree... but please lets not go there...

Admittedly this particular sect does not agree with homosexuality... but few if any do

I avoid that discussion at all costs... so lets do the same here brother

reply to post by Akragon



I suppose I should just pass this thread by.

HOWEVER, I believe that churches have done far too much damage to the cause of Christ and Christianity . . . it's hard to say what the balance sheet would show.

The original "church" was NOT AT ALL a top-down authoritarian bureaucratic STRUCTURE.

It was a loose collection of house churches--small groups--wherein members of the group would tend to offer to the group what they felt God had laid on their heart to share--whether a song; an insight; an exhortation or whatever.

See I Corinthians chapter 12 through 14 for the basic outline of church meetings according to the NT. Very few follow it.

Bishops gave oversight but as servant-leaders very anointed by Holy Spirit with signs following.

Currently we have a bureaucratic mess. Egos reign supreme, far too often.

!CONTROL! freak stuff runs rampant regardless of the label of the organization.

Abuse runs rampant . . . emotional, psychological and horrifically otherwise.

On one level, I have a lot of grace for such realities. We are all flawed humans and church leaders are no exception. Yet, God holds them to a higher standard as the Bible says.

On another level . . . with a long history of being on the short end of the stick of such flawed junk many times . . . it grieves me and sometimes near outrages me.

I believe that God will be cleaning His church up . . . those of all groups who truly know Him and seek His face.

= = =

All that considered and aside . . .

I encourage folks to find a church wherein the people are friendly, authentic, warm, helpful . . . not obsessive, rigid, brittle, proud . . . particularly where the leadership is humble and not all fussed up about their position . . . where the leadership enables all the members in the group to be their best and earnestly works to help all grow closer TO GOD . . . not to BE God to the members.

In terms of your questions . . . IF the church is a healthy one--a rare enough thing . . . it does tend to help one become a better person if one earnestly seeks to be in a learning mode vs a hostile or arrogant or cheeky mode.

BUT AVOID A PERFORMANCE ORIENTATION CHURCH--i.e. earning righteousness by works. That's hostile to the Grace of God in Christ. And every denomination has such.

Check out Joseph Prince on the issue of Grace . . . Singapore pastor. On youtube, I think.

Also . . . THE RHEMA CODE is a great breath of fresh air about leaving performance orientation trying to EARN God's favor behind. It never works.

The flesh CANNOT perfect itself sufficiently to ever earn God's favor.

I'd say . . . if the church is boring enough to fall asleep--find another church. Life is too short.

Another requirement of mine--FIND A CHURCH

WHERE GOD SHOWS UP more frequently than other places in town.

If people don't know what that means at your gal's church--find another church that does and can prove it.

Once one has EXPERIENCED such--there's NO SUBSTITUTE and NOTHING holds a candle for thrill, excitement, blessing, etc. Nothing.

It's one of the best kept secrets of modern life.

Satan does NOT have a corner on fun and thrill. God does.

But He seeks intimacy for who He is, not for the thrills an intimate relationship with him naturally provides.

Healthy Vineyard churches tend to have such above average, imho. Some healthy Foursquare. Even some healthy AoG do.

I'm NOT talking about phoney hokey stuff. And too much of that parades around a lot of churches pretending to be authentic Holy Spirit goings on. Find a discerning old codger or grandmotherly sort in the congregation and check his or her discernment out on anything you find unsettling or suspicious.


Trouble is, then the hierarchy and congregation tries to SYSTEMATIZE God showing up--formualize it. GOD virtually NEVER COOPERATES with such schemes and certainly not for long.

Sooner or later, the mountain top EXPERIENCES tend to end and God expects the people to walk some distance by FAITH, whether the "feelings" are like a spiritual desert, or not. .

I'd ask you to also ask God to MAKE HIMSELF REAL TO YOU IN TERMS YOU CAN WRAP YOUR UNDERSTANDING, CONFIDENCE AND FAITH AROUND. He ultimately will--usually not in your timeline and not as you might prefer . . . He'll do it HIS WAY and in His time. Given that He's God and you're not . . . it's logical.

Find an old codger in the congregation that you can respect due to their integrity and personality . . . and who has an intimate walk with God. Ask them questions that bug you--frequently. If you can't find such a person--find another church. Note, the old codger probably won't come in a package you might prefer. But he MIGHT could.

I've been known to sit in the back of a church and read novels. If something significant happened or the sermon was particularly good or God showed up, I could always lay the novel aside. Of course, I was much looked down on for that.

I don't know that God has been inside . . . so to speak . . . a lot of churches. So he probably would agree that most are a boring waste of time and an affront to Him and His priorities anyway.

Please let me know how it goes.


.

reply to post by Akragon

I have no intention of "rescuing her" from anything, though I am hoping I will be able to show her some of the issues I have with this "entire bible is truth" baloney...

Once she sees the flaws herself perhaps she'll listen to reason... Probably not though, but it will be fun in any case…

So you do intend to "fix" her. Not while she's going to that church. Remember, people who attend church are fixed in their thinking. They cannot allow any doubt creeping into their "faith". Any (and I mean any) suggestion there could be some "unreasonable baloney" will be seen as a direct attack on her beliefs and by default, her church and its beliefs.

You call it listening to reason, but you know what? She has the same idea about you. You said it yourself…

She loves her faith, and her church... which I have no issues with... I would gladly attend her church if it would make her happy….

She intends to fix you. This is her veiled way of sidestepping the issue for now. Right now going to her church is just a suggestion but will become a demand and irresolute the more you cement the relationship. She isn't being honest about that part. Right now she just isn't "happy".

Test her. Ask her if you don't attend or convert what will happen. Demand the truth. Tell her she can't be dishonest, her faith requires her not to lie. Have that conversation now, not later.

Of course you have to be ready for that truth. Are you? Or are you already hopelessly caught in their mesh?

Heck no! Some of the worst people I know attend church on a regular basis.

reply to post by Akragon


I was only giving an example of what church can and does do to some people. I didn't plan on taking it any further than that, it was only an example

reply to post by intrptr


Yeh... she intends to "fix" me... And I will let her try, grinning the entire time most likely

I've already found out what will be needed... after a certain time (apparently 2-3 years of marriage) I will not have to go to her church anymore... Likely cast out as a heretic by that time anyways...

Yet when I asked her this I also asked if they would ask her to leave me... she said "they would want you to give up on church and their religion... NOT on her... marriage is for life"

And one thing I definitely have is patients... I've even been told I have the patients of a saint... Im not sure about that but considering I do work with dementia and the elderly which are some of the most frustrating people on the planet... and I always keep my cool

I have hope

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Akragon

 

I was only giving an example of what church can and does do to some people.

I didn't plan on taking it any further than that, it was only an example

I know my friend... Its just that I've seen so many threads crash into that discussion lately....

I wanted to cut it off immediately...

thanks for your replies brother

reply to post by Akragon



Oh Dear . . . Reformed . . .

What a dry variation on a theme. Sigh.

For my money, it's little more than a glorified social club with Christian decorations.

Sorry. I have many wonderful Reformed friends but their theology strikes me as far too unBiblical for my taste . . . and the meetings are far tooooo vain-gloriously intellectual . . . and dry, dry, dry.

Sigh. Sorry to read that.

They are usually Preterists, Calvinists, and far too . . . welll . . . overly smug and barely hidden prissy for my comfort.

Some of their Biblical apologists do a decent job with the basics of the Christian faith. But the predestination/Calvinist thing can be a real mind boggling trip.

I find that Scripture teaches . . . a bit mind bogglingly on it's own--somewhat both 'truths.' Dr Walter Martin had the best solution for that one, imho.

Imagine a computer as large as the universe.

It is programmed with all the possible choices of all the organisms in the universe.

At the level of each organism . . . there is a ROBUST DEGREE of free will. Not EVERYTHING is freely chosen by the individual. But neither is everything decided FOR the individual.

There are real choices possible with real consequences.

But God the programmer also has the option to make choices in how He adjusts the software, the progamming to achieve His goals for individuals and the world and universe in general.

reply to post by Akragon

Yeh... she intends to "fix" me... And I will let her try, grinning the entire time most likely

I'm grinning too. She sees this as stages. First stage, get him to go to church. Second, convert him. If he can't be converted, leave him or the church? Have you told her your "baloney" theory about the bible and church? Using that word?

I've already found out what will be needed… after a certain time (apparently 2-3 years of marriage) I will not have to go to her church anymore… Likely cast out as a heretic by that time anyways...

Yet when I asked her this I also asked if they would ask her to leave me... she said "they would want you to give up on church and their religion... NOT on her… marriage is for life"

Interesting to note that both answers are "what the church says". If you go ahead you realize you will be married to both. Some issues will arise and she will get that far away look and then get back to you after she consults the church. More directly, some guy at the church whom she trusts for the answers. If you are alright with that then my blessing.

And one thing I definitely have is patients… I've even been told I have the patients of a saint… Im not sure about that but considering I do work with dementia and the elderly which are some of the most frustrating people on the planet… and I always keep my cool

Thats different. These people aren't trying to change you.

I have hope

I know they say they will give up on you, but she is a different matter. They will work her from a guilt perspective. They won't want to lose her..

My advice is to be honest up front and tell her you won't convert. If you love her you will be honest about that. I think that is what you're thinking is, but I don't want to misread you either. You can't put that off in order to win her.

Lots of luck. Thanks for hearing me out. I do wish the best outcome for you both. They say love is blind, don't be fooled or lulled into anything-- down the road.

reply to post by intrptr

I'm grinning too. She sees this as stages. First stage, get him to go to church. Second, convert him. If he can't be converted, leave him or the church? Have you told her your "baloney" theory about the bible and church? Using that word?

erm... no I don't want to insult her

When we first met she told me that the bible is "all truth, no errors, Gods word"... I almost spit out my drink. Then with my usual grin ( please see my avatar lol ) I showed her several contradictions... she didn't know what to say, so she said you're just taking it out of context... And of course I said, yeh that's the usual explanation when someone doesn't have an answer... We don't talk about the bible that much anymore... LOL

It just upsets her... and I don't want to do that... but shes adorable when she gets mad LMAO!!

Interesting to note that both answers are "what the church says". If you go ahead you realize you will be married to both. Some issues will arise and she will get that far away look and then get back to you after she consults the church. More directly, some guy at the church whom she trusts for the answers. If you are alright with that then my blessing.

yup... she already does that... consults her favorite theologian in her church... yet shes never returned any of what I've shown her... Perhaps they're both stumped?

I know they say they will give up on you, but she is a different matter. They will work her from a guilt perspective. They won't want to lose her..

Oh I know... shes wrapped with guilt from every direction but im already breaking her of that with certain... Lets call it "loving intuitions"?

My advice is to be honest up front and tell her you won't convert. If you love her you will be honest about that. I think that is what you're thinking is, but I don't want to misread you either. You can't put that off in order to win her.

I told her I would convert... not a problem... but she said "she doesn't want me to be there just to make her happy, it has to be something I believe truly" And I said blatantly that will never happen my dear...

Lots of luck. Thanks for hearing me out. I do wish the best outcome for you both. They say love is blind, don't be fooled or lulled into anything-- down the road.

Thanks again for your input on the situation... I like to hear others opinions on this issue... and there will be more threads coming in the future on this situation... I tend to turn to my brothers and sisters on ATS when I have questions or even just a certain thought in my head...

reply to post by Akragon

he already does that... consults her favorite theologian in her church... yet shes never returned any of what I've shown her... Perhaps they're both stumped?

I don't know about stumped. They are probably conspiring against you. Cohorts in Jesus. "Just trust in Jesus" is usually what you hear when they don't know an answer. This gives them the security of their "beliefs" without really knowing what they believe. That is what the word "belief" means when they say it. "Just believe" really means, "don't doubt".

You can never win that game. Go head on though and bang your head against that wall for a while… and let me know if you start another thread.

intrptr
reply to post by Akragon

 

he already does that... consults her favorite theologian in her church... yet shes never returned any of what I've shown her... Perhaps they're both stumped?

I don't know about stumped. They are probably conspiring against you. Cohorts in Jesus. "Just trust in Jesus" is usually what you hear when they don't know an answer. This gives them the security of their "beliefs" without really knowing what they believe. That is what the word "belief" means when they say it. "Just believe" really means, "don't doubt".

You can never win that game. Go head on though and bang your head against that wall for a while… and let me know if you start another thread.

Can't win eh...

We'll see about that.

reply to post by Akragon



I realize you seem to have no interest in my input to your questions. However, others may.

It likely will depend on what you call "winning."

Rational folks would call winning ending up eternally with an intimate relationship with Almighty God.

Anything less is losing out maximally.

And, I'm going to ask God to surprise you in ways that you will have no rational explanation for from your current cosmology. At that time or those times, you will again have a choice of whether to believe God or deny what you have just experienced. Time will tell which you choose. Evidently I need to pray for such for your gal friend, too.

RELIGION AND CHURCHIANITY have nothing of value for anyone.

BO XIAN
reply to post by Akragon

 

I realize you seem to have no interest in my input to your questions. However, others may.

It likely will depend on what you call "winning."

Rational folks would call winning ending up eternally with an intimate relationship with Almighty God.

Anything less is losing out maximally.

And, I'm going to ask God to surprise you in ways that you will have no rational explanation for from your current cosmology. At that time or those times, you will again have a choice of whether to believe God or deny what you have just experienced. Time will tell which you choose. Evidently I need to pray for such for your gal friend, too.

RELIGION AND CHURCHIANITY have nothing of value for anyone.

Assumptions rarely work out correctly brother... Just because i have no comment on your previous replies does not mean i don't appreciate the input...

Personally... I would call winning, myself ending up with the girl i love regardless of what her beliefs might be... She knows a bit about my beliefs, i pretty much know everything about hers, and though there are vast differences we still work very well together... Thus far even her mom has no issues with me aside from myself not being Christian. All seem to be fully convinced they will convert me which might happen, but it would only be for her... And wouldn't change my beliefs one bit.

I've even found out whats involved in this conversion thing... Apparently i would be required to recite some creed infront of their members... Which i would not do... Im not going to lie to a group of people and state something i know is incorrect

Should be interesting though

Akragon
She told me recently that "IF we were to be together in the future, I would have to attend her church...

Can I say it? Can I say it? I told you so. She's trying to convert you. She's trying to change you. You are the 'bad boy' that she wants to save and have you forever dedicated to her for having saved you. It's a girls fantasy.

So tell me you church goers... do you believe church makes you a better person?

No. And I say that as a person who was a VERY conservative Catholic for decades.

If someone is good, they'll be good no matter what.
If someone is bad, they'll be bad no matter what.

'Going to church' can help bad people be good but it can also help good people be bad.
They can become arrogant and full of spiritual pride (which is evil).

The 'going to church' helping someone thing depends on the person.
Some find 'messages' on how to live a better life.
But don't forget .. it's full of GUILT. GUILT .. used by cults to control people.

And the point of going to church isn't really to help people in the church.
The point is supposed to be about spending an hour worshipping God.
At least .. that's the point of the Catholic Mass. I don't know about protestants.

But none of that matters. WHAT REALLY MATTERS ... you know better than to believe that Adam and Eve were real. You know better than to believe that Noahs Ark happened or that Exodus happened. You know that the Abraham story is folklore and that no one should be celebrating a man trying to murder his son because of hearing 'heavenly voices'. You know better. You are well educated.

This girl you like has already said she can't live with you the way you are.
She has already said you have to change and do things her way.
She doesn't respect your education and position on these things.
SHe won't listen to common sense and FACTS that prove her wrong.

So what else won't she listen to in the future?
She won't listen to facts now .... what else won't she listen to?

And I'm getting ahead of myself but ... if you do decide you can put up with the stupidity (I don't know how you could but .. if you do) ... and you two have kids ... do you want your children raised with that stupidity? Do you think she'd put up with you telling them the truth that Adam and Eve didn't exist or that the Abraham story is nothing but folklore or that Exodus didn't happen, etc etc?? Your wife won't allow you to teach the children the truth. Do you want that for your children?? That's a very serious question to think about.

SORRY Akragon ... but you asked.

If she cant' respect your right to believe as you wish and she expects you to dump your education and common sense for her .. then run. Either that or turn it around ... tell her 'if YOU want ME to be here, then you have to learn to respect my education level and my right to believe or disbelieve in whatever I want ... and I'm not going to waste hour after hour going to Church TWICE on Sunday (and probably Wednesday evening as well) just to listen to someone who doesn't know what he's talking about preach and preach in my ear'.

Make her respect you or leave. IMHO. Again ... SORRY. (but you asked)

Akragon
I would like to hear from someone on our forum that is a regular at his/her church, so they could explain why they believe its necessary to attend.

When I was a conservative Catholic I went for three reasons ....
1 - GUILT. Because if I didn't go I felt guilty like I wasn't being a good 'child of God'.
2 - Worship God. I incorporated that into my daily worship of God. (this was Catholic)
3 - Learning. I thought I was learning from listening to the preaching and the bible readings.

Now I can't go, even if I wanted to. I have to stay away from crowds and germs.

But now I know -

- I can be a good person and not go listen to the stories I know to be fake and I can be a good 'child of God' without buying into the set rules and restrictions of a cult (be it catholic or protestant ... they are cults).

- I can worship God anywhere at any time. The kingdom of God is within. It's in the heart.

- I can learn by reading on my own and listening to what people say on the TV and in books. I don't have to be physically in a church.

reply to post by intrptr

Very wise words. Please listen to this fella. He nailed it.
Your new church friends will be sickly sweet to you to reel you in.
And if you dare not to 'come around' they'll dump you so fast it'll make your head spin.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I knew i'd find you here eventually my dear...

Lets see...

Can I say it? Can I say it? I told you so. She's trying to convert you. She's trying to change you. You are the 'bad boy' that she wants to save and have you forever dedicated to her for having saved you. It's a girls fantasy.

Feel free... I suspected as such... Im good with it though

This girl you like has already said she can't live with you the way you are.

See but she already is living with who I am... and in fact SHE is changing more then I am... And I haven't even started with her religion yet

She has already said you have to change and do things her way.
She doesn't respect your education and position on these things.
SHe won't listen to common sense and FACTS that prove her wrong.

That may be true, but she will learn eventually... it can't be avoided, and eventually i'll have to face one of their ministers... and oh the fun we'll have!!

And I'm getting ahead of myself but ... if you do decide you can put up with the stupidity (I don't know how you could but .. if you do) ... and you two have kids ... do you want your children raised with that stupidity?

they will see that daddy knows best...

Ugh, the thought of children scares me in any case... but I would like to have one or two, with her actually

Do you think she'd put up with you telling them the truth that Adam and Eve didn't exist or that the Abraham story is nothing but folklore or that Exodus didn't happen, etc etc?? Your wife won't allow you to teach the children the truth. Do you want that for your children?? That's a very serious question to think about.

Perhaps, but as she said... marriage is forever... she won't leave me... so eventually she'll have to deal with hard facts as opposed to sloppy myths.... and ohh the fun we'll have!! LMAO!!

SORRY Akragon ... but you asked.

No need to apologise... that's why I asked

If she cant' respect your right to believe as you wish and she expects you to dump your education and common sense for her .. then run. Either that or turn it around ... tell her 'if YOU want ME to be here, then you have to learn to respect my education level and my right to believe or disbelieve in whatever I want ... and I'm not going to waste hour after hour going to Church TWICE on Sunday (and probably Wednesday evening as well) just to listen to someone who doesn't know what he's talking about preach and preach in my ear'.

see that's where It just might get really interesting... I can see the preacher staring at me shaking my head as he rambles on about these myths and legends we're talking about... asking me why im shaking my head, or perhaps laughing... and me standing up and throwing out some interesting information...

Somehow I picture a fight afterwards... but I have no worries about that either... I can defend myself quite well considering I was a boxer... but that would definitely show that they do not know Jesus... and OH the fun we'll have!!

You see a trend in my words hun? LOL

I'm totally enjoying this whole religion thing she's involved with... she knows she can not answer the simple questions I ask... and I know her ministers can't either...

On their website one of the statements they make is... "We do not question the word, we just believe what it says... we do not doubt"... Love the brainwashing... just love it...

And I can't wait to tackle the best they can throw at me...