The immorality of abortion

colbe


This is why contraception too besides abortion is an intrinsic evil! Both are and while today, both are denied as even being sin. God decides life not us ever! There is a time, more time when a woman is not fertile. Married couples, ABSTAIN (a natural way) if you have a very serious reason for not being open to the gift of a child at a certain period in your married life.

I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more strongly. We need to move away from this outdated rubbish and the facile use of the word 'sin'. Just stop it. We're in the 21st Century now and Torquemada is long since dead.

Jean Luc Picard
I am talking about the extraordinary consequences of creating a new life.

Picard Double Facepalm
www.youtube.com/watch?v=13eDfrMgFQM
www.youtube.com...

I had to return, do not shoot me dear ones. The reason there are repeated abortion threads, because
God puts into everyone a help, their conscience. And technology is closing abortion clinics nationwide, thank
Heavens. We can know when life begins and it has been revealed do not kill, it is a Commandment~!

Sex is for marriage and procreation. Yes, there are higher things than sexual gratification like getting to
Heaven. Pray, if you do not believe. Ask God in prayer, He will help you. Don't listen to the world any
more. The list of sexual sins accepted today is too long to list. And no one cares, they just keep on...

If you're not Catholic, go kneel in prayer and confess to God any involvement with abortion, say you are
sorry. Then, you will be free. We're all sinners!!!

Fatima happened, the "miracle of the sun" in 1917. Mary stated at Fatima, more souls fall into hell for
sins of impurity (sexual) than any other! Believer her, she wants to help you get to Heaven. You can
speak to her too, not only Our Lord. She has been given all graces to dispense. Believe, ask her help.

Maturity happens, realizing something new and good, then changing for the good.


love,

colbe

AngryCymraeg

colbe


This is why contraception too besides abortion is an intrinsic evil! Both are and while today, both are denied as even being sin. God decides life not us ever! There is a time, more time when a woman is not fertile. Married couples, ABSTAIN (a natural way) if you have a very serious reason for not being open to the gift of a child at a certain period in your married life.

I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more strongly. We need to move away from this outdated rubbish and the facile use of the word 'sin'. Just stop it. We're in the 21st Century now and Torquemada is long since dead.

I didn't start this thread, I am commenting....like you dear friend. You are living, have a life, you cannotg
deny the same and even without faith, the world sees now because of technology, life begins at conception.

The murder of a child in its mother's womb is NOT rubbish (with abortion, a child becomes rubbish). God made sex for marriage and procreation.

Everyone can see the consequences of denying these facts. God does not change, He knows what is best
for His creation. The Commandments seem like a restriction. They're not, they help one live a happy
life.

Contraception and its fruit, legalized abortion wrecked the family. We can see it in every area of life.


God bless you ACym,

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
reply to post by FreeMason

 

If their mothers were considering an abortion in the first place, then no, I don't see any moral problem with it. Coercing or forcing a woman to have an abortion would be immoral, but if she wanted it, then no.

Here's another interesting paradox: most anti abortionists also support the death penalty, and are highly opposed to welfare. Yet in many cases, a woman who is seeking an abortion does so because she can't take care of the kid, financially or otherwise, and the father has no interest or desire in taking care of the kid. Thus, forcing the woman to have the kid means she will be dependent upon state welfare and social services to raise it. And quite often, kids from single parent homes end up on the wrong side of the law, even crimes that merit the death penalty.

So basically, the anti-abortionists want to force women to have kids, then remove all state aid to take care of the kids and do not want to pay for their upbringing (though gee, they sure scream about how "precious" those babies are, even as they are content to let them live on the streets), and kids who will likely grow up incarcerated or on death row and be executed.

I think it's clear where the real immorality lies.

I know right . . . The hypocrisy is staggering. Self important animals that preach from their moral high chair.

It brings to mind a great concept that the religious right should be quite familiar with:

Matthew 7:1-3
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Murder is unacceptable . . . unless, of course, we deem you have done something wrong (committed a crime) . . . or pray to a different god . . . or go against our god's word . . . or stand against our nation's will . . . or etc. etc.

Not to mention the financial, health, or forced (rape) issues that may be present, as well. You must life your life on their terms, however, they wish not to share in the responsibilities that they force upon you.

To this they talk of their god's gift of the sanctity of life . . . the same god that slaughtered the first born of Egypt, decimated cities out of vengeance, authorized the slaughter of millions in his name, etc. etc.

They'll mention personal responsibility, but overlook the most important part of that phrase . . . "personal".

And, will be the first to cry persecution and cling to their rights when they don't get their way or their beliefs are curtailed in any fashion.

Hypocrites, one and all.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
4. A human embryo is indistinguishable from most animal embryos. It is a cluster of dividing cells. It certainly has the potential to be a human. So does sperm. If you think abortion is taking a human life, then every ejaculation in your life that didn't produce kids is murder. .

Your ignorance of basic science is astounding.

A brand new human life begins at conception. There is no debate about that. You can find it in any biology/zoology/embryology textbook.

Abortion ends that brand new human life. Again, there can be no debate about that (unless you're hopelessly ignorant of basic science).

solomons path

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
reply to post by FreeMason

 

If their mothers were considering an abortion in the first place, then no, I don't see any moral problem with it. Coercing or forcing a woman to have an abortion would be immoral, but if she wanted it, then no.

Here's another interesting paradox: most anti abortionists also support the death penalty, and are highly opposed to welfare. Yet in many cases, a woman who is seeking an abortion does so because she can't take care of the kid, financially or otherwise, and the father has no interest or desire in taking care of the kid. Thus, forcing the woman to have the kid means she will be dependent upon state welfare and social services to raise it. And quite often, kids from single parent homes end up on the wrong side of the law, even crimes that merit the death penalty.

So basically, the anti-abortionists want to force women to have kids, then remove all state aid to take care of the kids and do not want to pay for their upbringing (though gee, they sure scream about how "precious" those babies are, even as they are content to let them live on the streets), and kids who will likely grow up incarcerated or on death row and be executed.

I think it's clear where the real immorality lies.

I know right . . . The hypocrisy is staggering. Self important animals that preach from their moral high chair.

It brings to mind a great concept that the religious right should be quite familiar with:

Matthew 7:1-3
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Murder is unacceptable . . . unless, of course, we deem you have done something wrong (committed a crime) . . . or pray to a different god . . . or go against our god's word . . . or stand against our nation's will . . . or etc. etc.

Not to mention the financial, health, or forced (rape) issues that may be present, as well. You must life your life on their terms, however, they wish not to share in the responsibilities that they force upon you.

To this they talk of their god's gift of the sanctity of life . . . the same god that slaughtered the first born of Egypt, decimated cities out of vengeance, authorized the slaughter of millions in his name, etc. etc.

They'll mention personal responsibility, but overlook the most important part of that phrase . . . "personal".

And, will be the first to cry persecution and cling to their rights when they don't get their way or their beliefs are curtailed in any fashion.

Hypocrites, one and all.

edit on 10/19/13 by solomons path because: (no reason given)

One general, then grand but more vague in your statement does not make your case against a loving God.
The people God judged in the Old were warned and they did not care. They chose evil. The same as today.

Except, we're in the New Covenant, there is a greater understanding of who God is and of His plan. I wish you would believe, pray, ask God. Here is an absolute fact, God loved you FIRST solomon, He created you.

Before you fall to sleep at night, start, speak to God in prayer. He will let you know He is thinking of you
too.

I don't understand your "personal" comment? I am serious, sorry.


God bless you,

nah i don`t think that would work too well, we would all be dead, each of us has done something to piss someone off enough to want to see us dead or never being born.

Sovaka
So what about those accident situations where all precautions were taken to prevent pregnancy?

Of ALL "precautions to prevent pregnancy", abstinence is the only one proven to be 100% effective.

Should the parents not have the choice to abort since they clearly have no desire to raise a child?

I find it interesting that you refer to a couple contemplating an abortion as parents. This shows that you clearly understand the significance of an embryo as opposed to a million sperm cells. Or do you consider all sperm producing males and egg producing women as single parents?

oh oh,

someone started a Abortion thread on ATS.

These threads never end good, they are all to full of emotion for a reasonable argument to ever be possible, I have seen loads of these threads in my time on ATS and they never seem to end well. Both sides of the argument on this one have very good points but both sides also get very emotional over the whole thing, then they try to bring religion into it and before you know it the debate becomes very heated.

OP,

you think Abortion is immoral, fair enough, but if i would be posting this on a pro-life forum and not ATS because all your going to do is stir up the mother of all arguments.

Adding time travel into the debate is just begging for trouble.

Um, you wouldn't be in this timeline. There is already a past, a real timeline and nothing anyone does can affect that. It just splits off timelines. This would still continue.

ThinkingCap
reply to post by FreeMason

 

You want to go back and abort Hitler?
Be my guest, you'll save millions of lives.
Get Mao and Stalin while you're at it.

But then of course, who is to say someone else would not have rolled up and done the same?
Collectively we must learn from negative experiences in order for our species to evolve as a whole.

So what about the 3 million + sperms you kicked to the curb in order to reach your mother's egg first?
Have you no shame for leaving your brothers and sisters to die?
Or maybe God chose you out of the 3 million sperm, then?
Just as God has chose leaders of the inquisiton, eh?

That logic is completely flawed because in order for it to work you have to believe there are equally as many tyrannical insane psychopaths as there are decent people. You can't possibly believe that.. For every psychopath humanity escapes through abortion we lose 15 decent people..

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
reply to post by FreeMason

 

So basically, the anti-abortionists want to force women to have kids, then remove all state aid to take care of the kids and do not want to pay for their upbringing (though gee, they sure scream about how "precious" those babies are, even as they are content to let them live on the streets), and kids who will likely grow up incarcerated or on death row and be executed.

I think it's clear where the real immorality lies.

I, for one, appreciate your use of the term "anti-abortionists" instead of "pro-lifers". If nothing else, at least some of my (and many others) efforts to simplify this debate are starting to bear fruit. You are absolutely correct, most of us do support the death penalty, but what does that have to do with abortion? The Pro Life label is a chink in our armor due to it's lack of specificity. It opens the door for all kinds of arguments that have no place in this discussion and its used as ammunition to make us look like a bunch of hypocrites.

But this leaves me wondering...

if you're sensible enough to use the correct term, then why did you bring the death penalty to the table anyways?

As far as your assumption that most of us are opposed to welfare as well, I suppose I'm a completely different kind of animal than those you're accustomed to debating. I happen to support the idea of a Utopian society that eliminates money along with 99% of people's excuses for allowing abortions.

SevenBeans777
Your ignorance of basic science is astounding.

A brand new human life begins at conception. There is no debate about that. You can find it in any biology/zoology/embryology textbook.

Abortion ends that brand new human life. Again, there can be no debate about that (unless you're hopelessly ignorant of basic science).

edit on 19-10-2013 by SevenBeans777 because: (no reason given)

Abortion is not about beginning of a human life in the biological sense. It is about beginning of a human person, a human life in the ethical sense.

en.wikipedia.org...

Usualy people write "human life" because it is commonly conflated, however what they really mean is beginning of human personhood, when the foetus gains a moral significance as an equal to any human being. That is a subjective question of morality, one that science alone cannot answer.

A microscopic bunch of cells is certainly not a person, IMHO.

colbe

This is why contraception too besides abortion is an intrinsic evil! Both are and while today, both are denied as even being sin. God decides life not us ever! There is a time, more time when a woman is not fertile. Married couples, ABSTAIN (a natural way) if you have a very serious reason for not being open to the gift of a child at a certain period in your married life.

Colbe you do not decide for god what humans should continue and what souls should go home early. The idea that god intended all humans should reach full maturity and create kids of their own is small minded. Not all humans are created to be only a breeding vessel and sex is a way for two souls to share intimacy and not only for procreation. Just because abstainance work for you and me does not mean it is for all.

God made sure science was created so that some humans who have other assignments do not get children and they should not have children no matter what your ideas are. Do not judge when you do not have the whole picture on this side. You are just emotionally invested but cannot see the bigger picture.

First make sure that all humans who are born get a chance at a good life. Then you can come back with your views about life here being very precious.

FreeMason
Easy question.

If time travel became possible, should it be illegal to go back in time and pay mothers to abort children of people we don't like? If abortion is not murder then there should be nothing wrong with this paradox correct?

edit on 19-10-2013 by FreeMason because: (no reason given)

Does the time travel split off a new timeline or modify the only existing one?

In the first case, you would not be really erasing anyone from existence, just preventing a new person from being born in another parallel universe, and there is nothing wrong with that, we all do it every day.

In the second case, it could be argued that you are erasing someone who already exists from existence, which could be analogous to murder.

libertytoall

ThinkingCap
reply to post by FreeMason

 

You want to go back and abort Hitler?
Be my guest, you'll save millions of lives.
Get Mao and Stalin while you're at it.

But then of course, who is to say someone else would not have rolled up and done the same?
Collectively we must learn from negative experiences in order for our species to evolve as a whole.

So what about the 3 million + sperms you kicked to the curb in order to reach your mother's egg first?
Have you no shame for leaving your brothers and sisters to die?
Or maybe God chose you out of the 3 million sperm, then?
Just as God has chose leaders of the inquisiton, eh?

That logic is completely flawed because in order for it to work you have to believe there are equally as many tyrannical insane psychopaths as there are decent people. You can't possibly believe that.. For every psychopath humanity escapes through abortion we lose 15 decent people..

edit on 19-10-2013 by libertytoall because: (no reason given)

Did not know there was a lack of humans on this planet now days. It seems to be the opposite with the amount of unemployment now days.

LittleByLittle

libertytoall

ThinkingCap
reply to post by FreeMason

 

You want to go back and abort Hitler?
Be my guest, you'll save millions of lives.
Get Mao and Stalin while you're at it.

But then of course, who is to say someone else would not have rolled up and done the same?
Collectively we must learn from negative experiences in order for our species to evolve as a whole.

So what about the 3 million + sperms you kicked to the curb in order to reach your mother's egg first?
Have you no shame for leaving your brothers and sisters to die?
Or maybe God chose you out of the 3 million sperm, then?
Just as God has chose leaders of the inquisiton, eh?

That logic is completely flawed because in order for it to work you have to believe there are equally as many tyrannical insane psychopaths as there are decent people. You can't possibly believe that.. For every psychopath humanity escapes through abortion we lose 15 decent people..

edit on 19-10-2013 by libertytoall because: (no reason given)

Did not know there was a lack of humans on this planet now days. It seems to be the opposite with the amount of unemployment now days.

And the truth of the abortionist argument is revealed. They want to decide who lives and who dies.

FreeMason

LittleByLittle

Did not know there was a lack of humans on this planet now days. It seems to be the opposite with the amount of unemployment now days.

And the truth of the abortionist argument is revealed. They want to decide who lives and who dies.

And a lot of unwanted kids in low income housing with parents working low income jobs or being unemployed is a wonderful start in life in a dog eat dog world. Frankly I am waiting for a drug that removes the ability to procreate until you add a drug so that all kids born are wanted and planed. Then the whole abort discussion becomes unimportant since no one will need abortion.

One side wants the woman to have children only when she wants it and one side say she is forced to keep the child even if she does not want it or cannot take care of it. The anti-abortion seem to be interested in overpopulation for some reason and do not seem to understand that over population will in the end bring mass extinction of both human and animals.

To the anti-abortionists, create a tax that is especially targeted to anti-abortionists that you pay for the kids to have a good life. Will you pay with money for your idea that all kids should be born? If not then your opinion are not worth anything since you are not the ones who are paying for the kids and have to take care of them. It is easy to judge others when you are not yourself affected by the judgement.

FreeMason
And the truth of the abortionist argument is revealed. They want to decide who lives and who dies.

No. How about we leave the decision in the hands of the women who need to have a say in what happens to their bodies?