The immorality of abortion

reply to post by colbe

God made sex for marriage and procreation.

So not for pleasure then?.......seems to me that God missed a trick with that particular one then

SevenBeans777

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
4. A human embryo is indistinguishable from most animal embryos. It is a cluster of dividing cells. It certainly has the potential to be a human. So does sperm. If you think abortion is taking a human life, then every ejaculation in your life that didn't produce kids is murder. .

Your ignorance of basic science is astounding.

A brand new human life begins at conception. There is no debate about that. You can find it in any biology/zoology/embryology textbook.

Abortion ends that brand new human life. Again, there can be no debate about that (unless you're hopelessly ignorant of basic science).

edit on 19-10-2013 by SevenBeans777 because: (no reason given)

Errr.....no. Seems as though you be the one of ignorance here. Scientists still do not agree over this issue, and given the nature of embryos in the first couple months of pregnancy, the personhood of an embryo or fetus is not even a settled point. Sorry to disappoint.

reply to post by Bone75


Good questions.

You are correct, I do not use the term "Pro-Life" because I find it vague and inaccurate. You are against abortion, not pro-life. Big difference.

Why do I bring up the death penalty? Because I find it rather interesting that the anti-abortion crowd are rabidly foaming over abortion "taking human life" but favor the death penalty. Which is.....the state sanctioned taking of human life. In otherwords, it's wrong to end the growth process of a cluster of cells that hardly even resemble a full human being, but ok to kill a full grown human being because they have greviously violated a law. The logic escapes me. One is already established as a human being, the other is a clump of cells that can't survive outside of the mother in any meaningful way, and doesn't even qualify as a person.

I support both: Abortion and death penalty. And I don't believe in Utopia.

reply to post by colbe


After reading that ridiculous and irrational post, my only regret is that I have only two palms, and one face on which to strike them.

Seriously. Come back when you can actually debate without the use of belief system that makes the most fantastical fairy tale seem real by comparison.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
reply to post by Bone75

 

In otherwords, it's wrong to end the growth process of a cluster of cells that hardly even resemble a full human being, but ok to kill a full grown human being because they have greviously violated a law. The logic escapes me.

Test the DNA and no one could tell you which was the innocent unborn and which was the convicted murderer, but everyone could tell you that both were human.

For me this is an issue of having a right to one's life. Do we or don't we and when is it a right that we violate? For me, the murderer violates and negates that right the minute he/she shows that he/she has no respect for the basic rights of others and would violate that right on a whim and in ways society deems most heinous. But I generally do not view prison as a place where we put people for rehabilitation but a place where people go to repay their debt to society that they have incurred by violating/negating the rights of others in various ways (breaking the law). Some people ring up a bill that cannot be paid in this life and only God is fit to judge.

By contrast, an unborn reaches a point where clearly the only difference between he or she and the premature child in the NICU is the desire of the mother. At that point, there is no excuse to think that what is happening here is anything other than the willful violation of another human being's right to life based solely on the convenience of the mother in almost every case. At that point, she has appointed herself judge, jury and executioner over a completely innocent child whose existence could have been avoided by keeping her legs closed.

When the unborn start jumping out of momma with meat cleavers and hacking other people to death, we can equate them to the murderers on death row. And for those very rare cases where the unborn is endangering his or her mother's life, exceptions should be made and it is the mother's choice and rightly so.

But to allow society to continue to engage in irresponsible behavior and then allow people to "clean" up the consequences telling them that abortion is perfectly victimless?

colbe
I had to return, do not shoot me dear ones. The reason there are repeated abortion threads, because
God puts into everyone a help, their conscience. And technology is closing abortion clinics nationwide, thank
Heavens. We can know when life begins and it has been revealed do not kill, it is a Commandment~!

Sex is for marriage and procreation. Yes, there are higher things than sexual gratification like getting to
Heaven. Pray, if you do not believe. Ask God in prayer, He will help you. Don't listen to the world any
more. The list of sexual sins accepted today is too long to list. And no one cares, they just keep on...

If you're not Catholic, go kneel in prayer and confess to God any involvement with abortion, say you are
sorry. Then, you will be free. We're all sinners!!!

Fatima happened, the "miracle of the sun" in 1917. Mary stated at Fatima, more souls fall into hell for
sins of impurity (sexual) than any other! Believer her, she wants to help you get to Heaven. You can
speak to her too, not only Our Lord. She has been given all graces to dispense. Believe, ask her help.

Maturity happens, realizing something new and good, then changing for the good.


love,

colbe

Colbe, If there is a god who created us in his/her image, then that god also would have given us the same power to create and destroy life as we see fit, just like some people believe god did. Whether he/she did it because he messed up the first or second time (he may have forgiven him/herself and carried on, who knows) or it was done to control resources, ie. culling the herd and so on or it was just done out of boredom, we humans seem to have the same capability. So, a mistake or an unwanted creation of our own, we can take that destructive power and put it to use, too. If we are catholic, that god will provide forgiveness so nobody else needs to worry about our actions.

As far as marriage goes, I think humans have been around and procreating long before any god, if they existed, made marriage a requirement for procreating. If this god was so smart in creating us, the creation process would have included a mechanism (hormonal or brain blockage or other) that god would activate in us to allow procreation and the drive to do so once he witnessed a ceremony of marriage. I think that was a total failure.

I believe that marriage is actually a tool created by various religions to control the masses and give them a goal in life to feel accomplished as they toil to tithe for their masters.

Controlling a woman's right to what they want to do with their creation is just plain wrong. I am sure you wouldn't want anyone micromanaging your body either, especially if they said it was because of some god wanting you to keep a baby.

reply to post by ketsuko


Sperm has human DNA too. So do my skin cells and toe nails. Does that mean that exfoliation and clipping my toe nails are murder? Is masturbation murder?

Again, the embryo/fetus is not a person. It does not have human consciousness. It cannot survive outside the mother's body except in a lab. It is not self aware. It does not even have fully functional or formed organs. Not until about the third trimester. Hell, it doesn't even vaguely resemble a human until about 3 months in pregnancy. And it is during this first trimester than most abortions occur.

I encourage you to google pictures of human fetal development. Then look at pictures of other embryos and fetuses from different animals. I looked up cats, mice, cows, elephants, and rabbits. Until later stages of development (length of time depending on species), I could not tell the difference between the embryos and fetuses until midway to later in their development.

A human is more than just a cluster of DNA and cells. A fetus is not a person until it has passed a certain threshold of development. Before then, it is a group of cells and tissue that might one day develop into a person. A "person in progress", so to speak. But "in progress" does not actually equal "being".

If you are going to med school, you are not a doctor until you graduate. You are in the progress of becoming one. You still do not meet the basics to become an actual doc.

A fetus is not a human life until it passes a certain "graduation" point in development. About the third trimester, although I have heard of developed fetuses capable of surviving independent of the mother a month before that, including actualkly looking, behaving, and functioning like a real human baby. But prior to that, no.

Now, if you want to discuss late term abortions as being questionable in morality, then yes, I would actually agree. Once you get past a certain stage in development, I think the kid has developed enough that it classifies as a real baby. Thus, I'd only support late term abortion if there was an exceptional reason or circumstances for it. Otherwise, abortions should be performed in the first trimester, and maybe the first two months of the second.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
reply to post by Bone75

 

Good questions.

You are correct, I do not use the term "Pro-Life" because I find it vague and inaccurate. You are against abortion, not pro-life. Big difference.

Why do I bring up the death penalty? Because I find it rather interesting that the anti-abortion crowd are rabidly foaming over abortion "taking human life" but favor the death penalty. Which is.....the state sanctioned taking of human life. In otherwords, it's wrong to end the growth process of a cluster of cells that hardly even resemble a full human being, but ok to kill a full grown human being because they have greviously violated a law. The logic escapes me.

The logic that escapes you is rather simple... the unborn are innocent, murderers and rapists aren't. We'll put a rapist in prison rather than executing him, but we turn around and give his victim the right to execute his child. To me that's twisted justice.

I support both: Abortion and death penalty. And I don't believe in Utopia.

If you don't believe in Utopia, then what is it you're progressing to? What is your endgame vision of the liberal agenda?

You want to go back and abort Hitler? Be my guest, you'll save millions of lives

No, they don't give a damn about saving lives, they want to keep their religion alive, which requires a lot of dumb people so you need to keep people poor with lots of kids.

CB328

You want to go back and abort Hitler? Be my guest, you'll save millions of lives

No, they don't give a damn about saving lives, they want to keep their religion alive, which requires a lot of dumb people so you need to keep people poor with lots of kids.

You can't possibly fathom how immoral it is to kill a person who is just being born?

Why can't I shoot a baby in the head when they are 2 or 3 years old? They are just as dependent upon the mother for life as a fetus.

WHAT THE HELL IS THE DIFFERENCE between a 2 year old and a fetus? OH PLEASE ENLIGHTEN US.

I find it rather interesting that the anti-abortion crowd are rabidly foaming over abortion "taking human life" but favor the death penalty

They don't just favor the death penalty- they favor all forms or death and destruction like endless war, torture, land mines, bankrupting people with capitalism, destroying peoples livelihoods with pollution and environmental destruction, etc.

Pro-life is a gigantic lie.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
reply to post by ketsuko

 

Sperm has human DNA too. So do my skin cells and toe nails. Does that mean that exfoliation and clipping my toe nails are murder? Is masturbation murder?

Would you consider someone with sperm in their testicles as a single parent? Please stop acting like you don't know the difference. This ridiculous line of reasoning is getting old.

WHAT THE HELL IS THE DIFFERENCE between a 2 year old and a fetus?

How many two year olds did Republicans kill in Iraq and Afghanistan? A few cells isn't a person, I'm not advocating late-term abortion.

CB328

WHAT THE HELL IS THE DIFFERENCE between a 2 year old and a fetus?

How many two year olds did Republicans kill in Iraq and Afghanistan? A few cells isn't a person, I'm not advocating late-term abortion.

A fetus is a lot more than a few cells by 12 weeks. A woman who has a miscarriage has significant trauma mentally related to it, so do women with Abortions but they don't tell you that because it's a business which makes money and political power for Democrats.

How many babies died in Iraq?

Saddam killed 450,000 people in MASS GRAVES in an effort to kill his opposition.

What should we have done? NOTHING?

CB328

I find it rather interesting that the anti-abortion crowd are rabidly foaming over abortion "taking human life" but favor the death penalty

They don't just favor the death penalty- they favor all forms or death and destruction like endless war, torture, land mines, bankrupting people with capitalism, destroying peoples livelihoods with pollution and environmental destruction, etc.

Pro-life is a gigantic lie.

They are trying to create such a mess that god (the existing one that can be found when seeking not the religious idol) will have to do thing in the open to save humanity. Some of them are safe since they are following the righteous path some of them are deluded to the point that they will not like the outcome of that happening.

The funny thing is that they have succeeded but that does not mean god will clean up the mess. This time humanity will have to learn to swim.



And if you are an atheist. Do not worry. God knows what souls are righteous and not. Religious garment of masks will not save the unrighteous.

FreeMason

CB328

WHAT THE HELL IS THE DIFFERENCE between a 2 year old and a fetus?

How many two year olds did Republicans kill in Iraq and Afghanistan? A few cells isn't a person, I'm not advocating late-term abortion.

A fetus is a lot more than a few cells by 12 weeks. A woman who has a miscarriage has significant trauma mentally related to it, so do women with Abortions but they don't tell you that because it's a business which makes money and political power for Democrats.

How many babies died in Iraq?

Saddam killed 450,000 people in MASS GRAVES in an effort to kill his opposition.

What should we have done? NOTHING?

From my point of view a lot of those souls are already back here in other vessals and the rest of them are at a higher level than here. Sometimes I find it funny that Christians are so afraid of dying when you are just leaving a vessal for another or going up or down a level. Seems like Christians do not have that much faith that they are safe as Christians say because then they would not fear death. I feel empathy by those who are left behind but not for those who die. Why should I? If they done what they should then they will be in a happy place where god (and the blessed ones) takes care of them and not this insane human mess. Sometimes i think of Christians as a group of people that thinks: If I am gonna be in this hellhole and suffer then I am gonna make sure the are a lot of others suffering with me.

I think everyone should notice the rampant use of religious fables as the source of morality while conveniently ignoring how many infants the imaginary deity had murdered in those same religious fables.

The reason the religious always ignore how many children and people their deity killed is because they don't want to be forced to admit that to them we are just "playthings" and "slaves" to their "god".

Notice how quickly it all turns to fire and brimstone when logical fallacies and outright lies fail.

Bone75


The logic that escapes you is rather simple... the unborn are innocent, murderers and rapists aren't. We'll put a rapist in prison rather than executing him, but we turn around and give his victim the right to execute his child. To me that's twisted justice.

But the unborn aren't humans until a certain stage. A death row inmate is.

If you don't believe in Utopia, then what is it you're progressing to? What is your endgame vision of the liberal agenda?

I could care less about anyone's endgame or agenda. Utopia is an empty, vague concept. I would be content for simple sanity and reason prevailing. Everything else is secondary.

Bone75

Would you consider someone with sperm in their testicles as a single parent? Please stop acting like you don't know the difference. This ridiculous line of reasoning is getting old.

No, I would not consider a person with sperm in their testicles a single parent. Anymore than I would consider a woman with a cluster of embryonic cells in her a parent, either. Until the fetus develops into an infant and is born.

It is your line of reasoning I am finding ridiculous and old. Ascribing personhood to a cluster of cells that haven't even developed the basic human structure.

CB328

They don't just favor the death penalty- they favor all forms or death and destruction like endless war, torture, land mines, bankrupting people with capitalism, destroying peoples livelihoods with pollution and environmental destruction, etc.

Pro-life is a gigantic lie.

That's a relatively good point, and one I was making earlier. They seem to be more worried about protecting persons that do not even exist, and have no guarantee of existence, over humans that are currently living.