Being christian while rejecting important OT figures?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

BTW, what category do you fit in on that poll?

Agnostic.

reply to post by wildtimes

The "views" I already "held" are based
on EVIDENCE AND SCHOLARSHIP.

..and you keep looking for more to just strengthen them rather than question them.
Seeking material evidence or trying to conjeur up some connection is a "need" and limitation of people who deny inspiration and revelations by God.

I know that aborgines on different islands who had never contacted each other held very similar beliefs for ages but someone like you may need to come up with a story to connect them with material evidence.

You praise sufi, mystic and buddhist teachings yet deny that inspiration can come by a high conciousness and claim that parallel teachings has to mean contact or communication of some kind.

Intelligence is a double edged sword when it comes to seeking the truths about the unseen.

For all your duhs!!-Ofcourse Jesus pbuh was a jew inspired by God to teach the jews just as the prophets before him whom he acknowledged. He claimed to be sent by God and if you deny that then you are calling him a liar, not surprising as you think the same about Muhammad pbuh.

You say that he went to all the way to India to learn buddhism and then came to teach his people to keep following judaism just with a bit more compassion and love?

There are so many inconsistencies in you views when taken together, they however stand by themselves ok enough when everything is compartmentalised.

Try breaking down the compartments and you'l see how conflicting you are with yourself.

reply to post by logical7

Try breaking down the compartments and you'l see how conflicting you are with yourself.

What part of "I have studied this" do you not understand?

Your mind is closed. Mine is not. Jesus said we are ALL part of the Divine. The Nag Hammadi texts indicate that according to Jesus, it was only Thomas who "really got it", and Thomas wrote that Jesus took him aside and told him 3 things. When the other two present at the gathering asked Thomas what Jesus had told him, he said, "If I told you one of the things, you would stone me."

Your knowledge is sketchy.

Your assessment of my understanding and views is simply that: your assessment. And since you refuse to look at the information I've provided to you on these boards, or to hear with an open mind, your assessment of my views makes no difference to me at all.

Jesus said we are ALL capable of doing what he did. That we are ALL equally parts of the Divine.



Take it or leave it. The first segment has photographs of the discovered existing texts and discusses Jesus' travels.

But you won't believe ANYONE who disputes your belief system. The narrator says IN THE FIRST TWO MINUTES (at 1:30, specifically), "Belief systems are psychic penitentiaries for our minds, and if we're going to evolve as a species, we need to move beyond belief."

This film is FULL of significant evidence - ancient manuscripts and documents - dozens of them!! "no less than 30" from Turkey to Tibet that indicate that Jesus, Issa, and Yuz-Asaf were the same person; and that place Jesus "in turkey, persia, pakistan, india, kashmir, and elsewhere [after the crucifixion]."

"There isn't a shred of evidence to support that Jesus stayed in Palestine and became enlightened while being a carpenter."

What exactly do you not get about that? I'm examining all of the evidence presented by scholars, researchers, etc.

IN THE FIRST FIVE MINUTES, the guy shows how he traced Jesus' journey during the "Hidden Years" - in the first FIVE MINUTES of part 1, you would learn this, if you would watch it with "learner's" eyes instead of dogmatic fundamentalist Muslim eyes that see only what they want to see..

Are you actually claiming that ALL OF THESE EXPERTS AND SCHOLARS are charlatans?
Why do you keep attacking me as a charlatan as well??????

If you don't want to believe it, then don't believe it!!

I choose to be well informed. And you accuse ME of "conflicted thinking"? I prefer to consider myself EDUCATED AND OPEN-MINDED. The popular, sanctioned, orthodox "holy texts" are corrupted and incomplete. MANY documents were burned, destroyed, banned, etc.

How is it that you don't know that??

reply to post by logical7

Seeking material evidence or trying to conjeur up some connection is a "need" and limitation of people who deny inspiration and revelations by God.

Excuse me for interrupting your JUDGING me, but...WHO ARE YOU to imply that my own studies are not inspired by the Divine, that the Divine is not REVEALING TO ME, individually, in my own way, what the truth really is?

Fine, don't believe it. I don't care.

A "need" and "limitation"? LOL "conjuring up evidence"??? THE EVIDENCE IS THERE!!
"of those who deny inspiration and revelations by God"???? The trouble is, logical7, that all you have is what OTHER PEOPLE have said God revealed TO THEM. And that's all I have, too - but I prefer to look at ALL the ideas, instead of cowering in fear of some tyrannical monster who was "conjured up" by the Churches and Imams.

I'm quite as capable of stating things about my thinking as Muhammed or anyone else was or is.

reply to post by logical7

..and you keep looking for more to just strengthen them rather than question them.

I thought you said you are always looking for things that CHALLENGE your beliefs!

Well, here's some challenging stuff. But you'd rather just be lazy and think you already "know". How very arrogant. It's not surprising that dogmatic believers will deny, smear, belittle, accuse, and reject people who CHALLENGE THEIR VIEWS. It's too scary.

Watch just those two parts of the BBC documentary - and see how narrow your thinking really is.

Wildtimes and others,

How is it that you don't know that??

I do indeed know of what you are speaking and reject it ...in it's entirety. I reject it simply from the lessons of what history teaches us when you can think outside the box of what is attempting to pass for excellence and religion today.

But I also know this from what is taught in the Word itself.

However...the sad thing about what I have learned is also not taught by many Christian Ministers...as they do not seem want to have their flocks know or be able to defend a position. It ought not to be this way.

The Word ..both Olde and New Testaments speaks nothing about Jesus the Christ for Remission of Sins as going to the East in His younger years. For this is not important at all.

Jesus said we are ALL part of the Divine.

Jesus did not claim this unless you are speaking of another Jesus and another Diety. Jesus, in fact, rebuked the Hebrew leadership telling them they were of their father the devil, a liar and deceiver he was and the leadership were following the devil and attempting to pass this devilishness off as if it was the Law of Moses when Jesus knew it was no such thing.
What he was telling the Hebrew leadership was that they were counterfeiting and were of the counterfeiter.

And many are today still following this same pattern by attempting to show that Jesus looked to the East. Jesus did no such thing..but the counterfeiters did exactly that.

I do not travel to the East ..up seven steps..but I know what it means..from the Garden of Eden unto the present.

Eastern Doctrine is well known to me and also how many try to infiltrate it into Christian doctrine by betting that no one sees what we are doing. The very same doctrine the Hebrew leadership were doing and are still doing today.
Today we still have with us many Pharisees....within Christianity itself. But so few are trained to spot the pattern.

This pattern of Eastern operation also works privily ..without many knowing of it's existance. You are correct about that Wildtimes. In this the Eastern doctrine is of the Occult. Hidden..concealed ..even esoteric. Known only by a few.

Jesus did not teach the doctrine known only by a chosen few.
Jesus did not teach from the Talmud or any other hidden doctrines.
Jesus taught from the Olde Testament and came to fulfill the Olde Testament and bring in the New Testament.
He did not teach from the East...but instead did His Fathers bidding.

For the doctrines of the East...were what the natoins surrounding Anciet Israel were already doing and the Hebrews were warned not to do this for it was abomination. Thinking people know this...particularly those versed in History and what it means and bodes.

For this is also why History is such a poorly taught subject today...so that it will be easier to try to pass all religions as the same religion ..all gods as the same god. All on an equal footing. Such that we will no longer be able to inspect the fruit they produce. By their fruits shall ye know them.

But some of us out here are trained in this secret occult doctrine and we can see even our own leadership trying to infiltrate this into the American way of life and thinking.

The other tell tale that Eastern doctrine is not the way to go is the economies of all these Eastern religion nations. Their economies are mostly inert..dead. This is historically known. Any Eastern economy which changed from deadness and inertness...its life came from a western nation and economy...thinking...knowledge. In otherwords it was imported and did not originate there in these Eastern nations.
This simplicity is historically demonstratable.
Thinking people know this..

Wildtimes...

Jesus did not say we, as in the world, are all part of the divine. Any such impression is of Jesus and his disciples speaking to His People...Believers. Not to the world.

The Eastern doctrine and belief system tries to say we are all one.

If this is so...than......

The children of the bondwoman Shall be Heir with the children of the freewoman..

This from Galatians chapter 4..verse 30.

For this verse actually reads...

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

All attempts of the Eastern doctrine is to make us after Ishmael in stead of Issac. To make the children of the bondwoman heir with the children of the free woman. This is not God's doctrine...it is of the devil...a counterfeit. We are not Ishmaelites but after Issac and his seed. In Issac shall thy seed be called..not after Ishmael.

And your system of belief is of the counterfeiter.
And there are those of us out here who know the name of the counterfeitter.

Eastern doctrine is of the counterfeiter. Just as were doing the pharisees who were of their father the devil.

People knowlegeable in the Word..know this pattern and can see it in our public educations..in our leadership..in the news media..as they all attempt to couterfeit.

And we are slowly and carefully teaching others to spot it...in everything.

However..to be fair about this..many So called Christian Ministers are also teaching Eastern Doctrine concealed and hidden from those not schooled to see it for what it is. They too are Pharisees and of their father the devil. They are wolves in sheeps clothing.

Jesus never taught from the Eastern Doctrine. I also know this because most Eastern Doctrine is of saving yourself...by works.

The Doctrine in the Word is Jesus did it all..it is a finished work.

This knowledge is also how I can spot many so called Christian Ministers as counterfeiters/Pharisees.

You are attempting to superimpose the Eastern doctrine and religion over the top of the Olde and New Testaments as if they are part of Gods Word...and they are not. You are doing what so many Pharisees before you did. It is counterfeit and of another god and another testament.

Hope this helps some of the readers out here.

Thanks,
Orangetom

@ wildtimes .......... Is this about Jesus in India again? Any ''scholarly'' research into this subject HAS to use the 2 main sources on Jesus, the Bible and the Koran, as a foundation....but both contradict the claims made by proponents of the ''Jesus in India'' theory.So its just a bunch of wild speculation and guesswork on the part of the ''scholars'' who seem to have a thing for pulling facts out of thin air.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Any ''scholarly'' research into this subject HAS to use the 2 main sources on Jesus, the Bible and the Koran, as a foundation.

Um, no, it doesn't.

The Bible says NOTHING about where he was. Neither does the Koran (and I'm not sure how you see the Koran as a "main source" on Jesus). LOL

reply to post by orangetom1999

I do indeed know of what you are speaking and reject it ...in it's entirety. I reject it simply from the lessons of what history teaches us when you can think outside the box of what is attempting to pass for excellence and religion today.

Whatever.
I've been "outside the box" my whole life.

Are you saying I'm condemned, orangetom? Shame on you.

You don't know. None of us do. And that's all there is to it. But, of course, you are free to reject it. People wearing blinders like to do that.

Again, whatevs.

sk0rpi0n
Any ''scholarly'' research into this subject HAS to use the 2 main sources on Jesus, the Bible and the Koran, as a foundation....

Wrong. The Qu'ran isn't a source of information on the life of Christ. It's FABRICATION made up 600+ years after the life of Christ. There is nothing historical about the Qu'ran. It's BUNK. It has no place being part of any research about Christ. The author had no clue .. NONE.

sk0rpi0n
here are some other Christian sources stressing the importance of the Old Testament to Christianity.

1 - Important to some Christians does NOT EQUATE to being a belief requirement to be a Christian.
2 - I gave information showing that 1/2 of Christians don't read the bible literally and don't have to.
3 - Wildtimes gave information attesting to this as well.

consider yourself the odd one out.

You were proven dead wrong on that. And yet you still obsess about what title I have for my spiritual beliefs. You are one sick puppy. Go get some psychological help. Seriously.


TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE -

sk0rpi0n
People don't usually learn science from those opposed to science. So there's no reason for people to learn Christianity from those opposed to it.

You've got nothing to say that any of us Christians need to hear.

Wildtimes,

Whatever.
I've been "outside the box" my whole life.

I too have been outside the box most of my life..particularly once I began to notice patterns.

Also of importance here Wildtimes.. "Whatever" is not scholarly..not intelligent. It is howver today PC and what attempts to pass for the moral ethical high ground. It is none of these.

Are you saying I'm condemned, orangetom? Shame on you.

Good Grief....this is bottom feeding Wildtimes and someone with as much scholarly knowledge as you should know better than this and to try this on someone who has been outside the box.

I cannot condem nor save you. However ..once again to be fair..most Believers are not aware of this and once again their ministers leave them untutored in this knowledge.

What all knowlegeable believers know is that we are all condemed and deserve hell and damnation...in particular..Believers...we do not deserve anything better.

I in particular deserve hell and damnation...nothing better.

I do, however, know where from your defensiveness and knowledge originates. No problem and I can handle it without such sensitivity. For we are the salt of the earth ..not the sugar.

You don't know. None of us do. And that's all there is to it. But, of course, you are free to reject it. People wearing blinders like to do that.

What I know or dont know is immaterial..but it is enough to get to you and the doctrine of the east.

What is material here is what He has declared.

Again, whatevs.

Good Grief...not professional..not enlightened...not educated .and not adept.

But it is politic.

However...I can handle it while declaring what He declared.

Thanks for your post and confirmation of what is known by those versed in the Word.

Orangetom

Yahoshua was born of the tribe of Judah however he did not "practice"Judaism.The early record is when he was twelve and went to a passover feast in Jerusalem....His parents couldn't find him for 3 days and they found him in the temple conversing with the Jewish elders.It doesn't say he was learning anything from the Jewish elders but that they were amazed at what he knew.The next historical account is at 30 yo.Again he is not "practicing" Judaism at all...he is "proclaiming " the coming of the Kingdom of God.There is not one account of what Yahoshua did that was "practicing" Judaism.In fact he spent a lot of time correcting the Jewish elders of their false teaching of religion which is one of the many reasons they wanted to and did kill him....Yahoshua clearly stated many times where he got what he "knew" from.

For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

The Jews there were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having been taught?

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,

My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. ... the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I[Yahoshua] speak on My own authority


All of Yahoshuas "teaching" were proclamations/preachings of what things "are". He did not start a "new" religion of Christianity or any religion nor did he "revise" or change The Law..He didn't have a religious bone in his body.Yahoshua was not a mystic.He did not go to the "east" to learn anything.That is the point of his proclamation... the destruction of the kingdom of religions and the "coming" of the Kingdom of God.Man cannot "know" God through religion at all.It all "comes" from revelation from the Father.

The only requirement for being a Christian is believing you are a Christian...however that has nothing to do with Yahoshua at all.He gave no tacit approval of "the truth" to those that believe in a religion......So the answer to the OP is.... Yes.Christians can believe whatever they want and it doesn't matter one bit whether they believe all or nothing of the scriptures because Christianity is a religion.It is false and has zero to do about the creator God.There is only one way to know the creator God.When the creator God reveals it.Not one nano second before or by any method of belief.

reply to post by orangetom1999

What all knowlegeable believers know is that we are all condemed and deserve hell and damnation...in particular..Believers...we do not deserve anything better.

I in particular deserve hell and damnation...nothing better.

tom,
you can spew that stuff all you want.
It doesn't in any way 'reduce' my education to "PC", pop culture.

People are not born worthless sinners.
If you think you deserve nothing better than damnation, that is on YOU, and your interpretation of 'scripture.' It does not apply to everyone.

I'm not only educated, but I'm not a tool for "Believers" to be used as "evidence" that we are all "worthy of hell."

I
Simply
Do
Not
Believe
That.

For someone who claims to understand Eastern thinking, you surprise me to not be able to appreciate that simple premise!!!

Again, tom, "whatever."
Do some more research, and give yourself (and the rest of us) a break.
*eyeroll*

reply to post by orangetom1999

Thanks for your post and confirmation of what is known by those versed in the Word.

Apparently you have 'deduced' that I am some kid?

Friend, I celebrated my 55th birthday one month and 3 days ago. Using "pop" words is appropriate when one is not aware of another's "age group."....

I happen to have two kids in their early/mid twenties. I've hung out with them - I am 'knowledgeable enough' to use "current" terminology....

it in now way takes away from my KNOWLEDGE. It may reduce your "opinion" of me, but that, again, is on you, and has no bearing on reality.

Do me a favor and let me know what "tone" you would prefer, good sir. I guarantee I can meet you toe to toe, and carry on a perfectly lucid, educated, articulate dialogue. Whether you are 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, or whatever. You do not intimidate me.

reply to post by wildtimes

Jesus said we are ALL capable of doing
what he did. That we are ALL equally
parts of the Divine.

Yes, he said it(bold), the next part above is your view. But is that all he said or was his statement conditional?

We as humans are capable of doing what Jesus pbuh did as a human IF we have FAITH so faith in what exactly? Humanity? Secularism? Democracy?

Faith in the Creator, he was teaching about God and to submit one's will to God's Will.
You are misquoting Jesus pbuh if you make a conditional statement into a declarative one. Don't do that!
There are enough people who twist and bend, pick and choose Jesus' pbuh teachings to make them fit their own personal philosophies, you don't want to be one of them if you think yourself as an educated, open minded, well informed intellectual.

But you won't believe ANYONE who
disputes your belief system.

not without proof and when counter proof is present. I will watch the videos you put and reply you.
I know that Jesus pbuh was arguing with temple elders at a very young age, so he had learnt a lot, enough to correct mistakes of the priests. How do you explain that? Or you dismiss this story as a lie?

The
narrator says IN THE FIRST TWO
MINUTES (at 1:30, specifically), "Belief
systems are psychic penitentiaries for
our minds, and if we're going to evolve as a species, we need to move
beyond belief."

beyond belief? I'l like to know whats there "beyond" belief.. hahahaha
belief system is a prison?
then everyone is a prisoner including you as you also hold some beliefs.
Now i really need to watch the videos.

Humans have a need for belief they cannot move beyond belief no matter how learned that sounds!

If by beyond belief the narrator/you means materialistic humanitarian then no thanks. I cannot do that once I know that there is something "beyond" death.
I do not have the convinience of being an agnostic. It would go against my intelligence and understanding to not believe in The Creator and that I have to return back one day.

reply to post by wildtimes

WHO ARE YOU to
imply that my own studies are not
inspired by the Divine, that the Divine
is not REVEALING TO ME, individually, in
my own way, what the truth really is?

I never said that, I actually agree that the Divine sends personal inspiration and signs to all. I am just pointing that people may make their intelligence a barrier in understanding the signs, especially the ones who almost worship their intelligence. Look at atheists, they are smart people but they deny The Creator and in general anything after death.

The trouble is, logical7, that all you have is what
OTHER PEOPLE have said God revealed
TO THEM. And that's all I have, too - but
I prefer to look at ALL the ideas,
instead of cowering in fear of some
tyrannical monster who was "conjured up" by the Churches and
Imams.

you see a monster because you want one so that you can peacefully hate religions rather than trying to find more and God forbid that you start agreeing and liking them :lol
Everyone should look at all ideas out there and see which one appears to be most true without already having preset parameters to accept or reject an idea just because it challenges/threatens one's personal philosophy.

I can understand why you assume that me and other muslims cower in fear and so stay muslim. With all respect to you thats very shallow. I hope you just said it to make a useless debate point and not that you really believe it.

reply to post by wildtimes

I thought you said you are always
looking for things that CHALLENGE
your beliefs! Well, here's some challenging stuff. But
you'd rather just be lazy and think you
already "know". How very arrogant.
It's not surprising that dogmatic
believers will deny, smear, belittle,
accuse, and reject people who CHALLENGE THEIR VIEWS. It's too scary. Watch just those two parts of the BBC
documentary - and see how narrow
your thinking really is.

I do look for challenges to my beliefs. Why do you assume that I have not already challenged my islamic belief about Jesus pbuh by reading books, articles that talk about his lost years, going to india, egypt etc?

How many articles,books have you read about hell and why it is a reality and how its still just to send some people to hell for eternity?
Or you only seek material with views about hell that resonates with your own?

reply to post by logical7


This was one of the most admirable of your responses to me, ever, logical7. Thank you.

But this part, I have to argue:

I can understand why you assume that me and other muslims cower in fear and so stay muslim.

No. Not just you and other muslims. ANYONE who believes in a fiery hell and the only reason they do good things is to avoid it. We're back to the "morals do not come from Religion" issue, which you seem pointedly unable to grasp and accept.

With all respect to you thats very shallow.

It's shallow to believe that people only behave because they are afraid of torture and pain, in ANY situation - religious or otherwise. Actually in your particular case I think you are more interested in the "righteous revenge" part of your theory.

I hope you just said it to make a useless debate point and not that you really believe it.

I would like to be able to retract it. But I do believe there are MANY MILLIONS of people who behave ONLY because they are afraid of God's Wrath. It's a fact.

If you don't operate out of "evasion of punishment", then fine. I'm glad to hear it. (No doubt I'm already on your "target" list - so if Allah ever consults you, I'm already in line for the fiery pit. If not, I'd sure like to know about it. The tone of your response overall suggested that you might think I'm not a demon after all.

As for Useless Debate Point: No. There are FAR too many CHILDREN being beaten, shamed, warned, silenced, taught violence, and sure they are HEADED FOR HELL -- and that makes for sociopaths.

Chronic fear, and helplessness - but blamed on "themselves" for being born worthless sinners.
Yeah, no. I'll leave it at: for just "being born."

reply to post by logical7

How many articles,books have you read about hell and why it is a reality

About the same number of articles and books and documentaries I've absorbed that say it was a fabrication that goes back to Zoroaster, and was morphed out of older religions. Milton and Dante were the culprits who gave the powerful the idea to make it an "Inferno" (that's Dante) type place.

It's a fabrication.

reply to post by logical7

Why do you assume that I have not already challenged my islamic belief about Jesus pbuh by reading books, articles that talk about his lost years, going to india, egypt etc?

Because if you had, you'd need to admit that there are VERY good cases for the idea. But you don't.
You staunchly refuse to accept it as a probability.

To my thinking, that means you have not properly investigated it. Simply saying "Notovitch confessed" is not evidence that it is false. Since then, many people have picked up where he left off - and as the "lone wolf" in the West presenting the idea, he was SILENCED. You act as though you've never heard of someone being brow-beaten and threatened into a retraction.

Ahem (the inquisitions, anyone?) (Islam will overtake the world, anyone?)

The material has been reviewed and reinvestigated THOROUGHLY, and the "confession" was extracted on pain of societal rejection, emotional and professional mental torture, and probably worse. It has since been shown that there were other sources besides the one he portrayed, and they BACK UP THE CLAIMS.