Underwater Military Bases

reply to post by MystikMushroom


That would have been something the USS Parche or now the USS Jimmy Carter would do. From what I have heard the USS Parche did have some type of robotic arm or crane type of thing built into the submarine. The problem is that if you were not part of the USS Parche crew. You were not even allowed to see the submarine, no matter what clearance you have. I have been told by friends that were on the Parche that it had that capability, but never witnessed it myself.

reply to post by MystikMushroom


Robotic arms. The technology is amazingly sensitive nowadays.

amicktd The likeliness of underwater military bases are slim to none.

In your opinion.



-SN

reply to post by SadistNocturne


I just understand the extreme difficulty it would require to drive into a hidden cave, underwater gate, or whatever entrance they may have with no eyes. The only capability we have underwater for navigation is charts and sonar. Just to park a submarine at a normal pier on the surface requires tons of training and practice. Not to mention the assistance from tug boats and a pilot onboard. Based on your story of him just all of a sudden being parked at an underwater base at 400ft. Sorry its not gonna happen. Just to maneuver through the channel on the surface requires everyone onboard to be stationed for the maneuvering watch and is a big deal. It takes a 120 people to complete the things we do on submarines not just a few.

amicktd
reply to post by SadistNocturne

 

I just understand the extreme difficulty it would require to drive into a hidden cave, underwater gate, or whatever entrance they may have with no eyes. The only capability we have underwater for navigation is charts and sonar. Just to park a submarine at a normal pier on the surface requires tons of training and practice. Not to mention the assistance from tug boats and a pilot onboard. Based on your story of him just all of a sudden being parked at an underwater base at 400ft. Sorry its not gonna happen. Just to maneuver through the channel on the surface requires everyone onboard to be stationed for the maneuvering watch and is a big deal. It takes a 120 people to complete the things we do on submarines not just a few.

OK, I accept that you don't agree.

So, what's next, should we hug ?


- SN

reply to post by SadistNocturne


Lol, I always like a good hug. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful or rude by any means, just trying to put a perspective on the situation and give my opinion on the subject.

reply to post by SadistNocturne


---
Depends on the type of sub you were on!

Ohio and Virginia Class submarine refits had the NEW Navy Seal Underwater Ingress/Egress stations
into the middle of the sub just off the conning tower which has a small underwater
'tender" submarines or transfer chambers (made by Nyutco, Deepflight or SubSalve, etc)
which can dive 1600 feet+ for pick up or drop off of the Navy Seals.

There is also a "Docking Chamber" which can be extended to another submersible
for inter-vehicle or underwater dock transfers.

Of course near Bahamas is that Underwater Test AUTEC facility which I think
DOES HAVE a long underwater tunnel egress out of the canyon at about 500 feet.
And since navy divers can now do 300 to 600 feet using Heliox gas mixes if you're
in plain SCUBA gear, it no big job just to swim out to the sub. You can also use a
Hard Suit which can do a heck of a lot more but needs one of the BIGGER
SUB DOCKS to get into for intersub transfers.

The US Navy is responsible for the maintainance and upkeep of Undersea habitats.
Dry Deck Shelters (DDS), SEAL Delivery Vehicles (SDVs), Advance SEAL Delivery System (ASDS),
pressurized submarine rescue systems, submarine Lock-in/out trunks, diver propulsion
vehicles (DPVs), and their life support systems.

And for you sub watchers, Navy Seals can even be shot out of a torpedo-like tubes
which is usually on the newer subs (has larger diameter than normal torpedo tube)
in Self-Contained Pressurized or Unpressurized Capsules depending upon the mission.

Near shore it's an unpressurized capsule with the diver in full SCUBA GEAR while
the pressurized capsule is for times where Long-Distance Sub to Shore for
land-based missions are involved and the SEAL needs to NOT HAVE his
SCUBA GEAR ON (i.e. land cammo plus weapons plus mission specific hardware)

I have a bit more info on these techniques but I'll see what others have to say!

Small Format Flooded SEAL Delivery System:
en.wikipedia.org...

Dry Pressurized SEAL Delivery System:
en.wikipedia.org...

Virginia Class Subs with SEAL Delivery Payload Modules:
en.wikipedia.org...

Next Gen Subs Multi-Mission Payload Modules:
www.navy.mil...

Atlantic Undersea Test and Evaluation Center (AUTEC) Andros Island, Bahamas:
en.wikipedia.org...

Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center San Diego (SSC San Diego)
www.spawar.navy.mil...

Other federal labs:
www.federallabs.org...

Naval Undersea Warfare Center Division (Keyport, Washington)
auvac.org...

Their NUWCD Capabilities:
www.google.ca... %2520Briefings%2FNUWC%2520Hawaii%2520CEROS%2520Industry%2520Day%2520-%2520Sep%252010%2520Release.pdf&ei=HPRBUtbVF4SuiQK64IDoDg&usg=AFQjCNHHBvphB2gBq2w H5f45tvCawKq4Uw&bvm=bv.53077864,d.cGE

Southeast Alaska Acoustic Measurement Facility (Ketchikan, Alaska)
www.navsea.navy.mil...


U.S. Navy Concept Art for underwater NAVY base:
medium.com...

Nyutco Research:
nuytco.com...

Navy Exosuit:
nuytco.com...

Underwater lifting adn transfer systems
subsalve.com...

Deep Flight:
www.deepflight.com...

Navy DIVE Gear Testing unit:
en.wikipedia.org...


See Nay Sub Ops memo:
www.google.ca... 2520Operations%2520and%2520Readiness%2F03-100%2520Naval%2520Operations%2520Support%2F3150.27B.pdf&ei=me5BUveoDIiRiQLvloDADA&usg=AFQjCNE2ZUAbDORH61goaZ G3RHDXjQYEUg&bvm=bv.53077864,d.cGE


-----

Oh...one other thing.... do Google searches on US "Lily Pads" or "cooperative security locations"
military bases which are very small outposts EVERYWHERE in the world ranging from the
Horn of Africa to Uzbhekistan to Colombia to Peru and almost every other Hot, Cold, Wet,
Frozen and Dry place on Earth in over 1000+ locations! They consist of very few personnel,
mostly SpecOps plus logistics and maintenance, spartan living quarters
and as covert as locally practical....THEY ARE EVERYWHERE!

See his link:
www.motherjones.com...

-----

SO AS YOU CAN SEE there's a LOTS OF STUFF happening in the oceans!
WHO KNOWS what else is out there?!

reply to post by ImagineFree


Deep Underground Military Base = D.U.M.B

miniatus
I can totally believe underwater military bases exist.. and if they don't I'd be surprised because it makes perfect sense, it also makes them extremely difficult to detect, it protects them from satellite imaging and it also makes them extremely difficult to attack with conventional weapons.. We'd be fools if we didn't have bases like that.

Bingo.

reply to post by amicktd


What about a different scenario.

What's the purpose of a supposed "underwater" submarine base? The only purpose is covert logistics, right? Resupply and change crew? What else? I can't think of anything.

There are underground bases in the USSR (www.artificialowl.net...) but that's something different.

Look at the original post's actual evidence. Go back to the original purpose "covert logistics". If this submarine base is really underwater, it needs to be resupplied too. Now, how does that happen? With a submarine. What's the point then?

I have a different scenario. If you were tasked with the mission of providing covert resupply to a sub how would you do it, cost effectively?

A surface cargo ship with a hole in the bottom. This could be the 'dock' in calm seas.

Bedlam

GargIndia

I know for sure that rescue submersibles can dock with submarines. These are used for bringing up crew if a submarine is struck.

A small number of crew can be exchanged while sub is underwater using a docking submersible.

In that case, the submersible docks to the sub. Subs are not way maneuverable. If you're going to pull off an underwater base, you'd likely have to have something on the order of a hole in an underwater cliff wall, with a large chamber inside filled with air. It couldn't be very deep, though, or you'd have hellacious problems with people's health over time with nitrogen.

It is a fact that submarines have been used in tapping undersea communication cables. In such an operation, it is likely that sub needs anchoring.

A nuclear sub is ideal for things like laying listening devices on sea floor or tapping communication cables.

Well, sure, but in that sort of case what you use is a DDS, you put the sub near the bottom and the spook divers lock in and out of the DDS, and all their equipment is in there. If you're going to be intentionally grounding the sub, they used to be able to fit the thing out with seabed skids but I'm not sure they've done that since the '70s, since it screws up the noise profile.

====

I kinda beg to differ on that it couldn't be very deep though
because of the bends and Nitro-narcosis...It's a matter of
having a SEALED AIRLOCK docking environment similar
to a dry-dock where large CONCRETE (usually NOT steel!)
doors swing open to let a sub into a 400 foot long 50 to 100 foot
wide 50 to 100 foot high DOMED cavern which can be pumped
in and out of seawater on demand as the subs are scheduled
for incoming refreshes/resupply or onto outgoing missions.

The V-shaped door edges/sides allow the OUTER OCEAN
pressure to seal the cavern opening TIGHT and the multiple
2000 Horsepower pumps can EASILY pump out a chamber
that size in about 4 to 6 hours.

You'd have NORMAL atmospheric pressure in the cavern
and since the cavern depth is NOT more than say
1500 feet deep from top-side you don't get the
air-pressure health issues many DEEP LAND miners get!

---

On an aside regarding cooks, I've been on Russian subs
(both the stinky, smelly, diesel-powered kind AND the
big nuclear BOOMERS! -- Don't Ask!) where the cook
was the chief political officer and was of Haute Cuisine
calibre...so "cooks" can have more than one function.

Most of the NEW one's I've been on use the new
Turbo Chef ovens that look VERY MUCH like those
in Subway-brand restaurants used to toast your "subs"!
(is that more than just a coincidence?)

They're FAST cooking yet STILL having nice organic browning
effect on your steaming veggies and the rest of that
ULTRA-LOW SALT diet!

---

OMG! I hated those SMALL diesel powered Russian subs.
They really STINK like diesel and they're ALL designed
for those 5' 5" in height and under and with me
being 6'2" it's a NIGHTMARE to stay in one!

The big boomers freaked me out because everything
seemed so ANALOG and OLD looking and the bulkheads
CREAKED like crazy from the pressure differentials
when you're doing the Thermocline hunt for layers
of water of different density used to hide your sub
from "Enemy Sonar"! It felt like I was going to be
crushed by the cramped nature of the beast.

The Ohio classes are MUCH NICER inside!
Felt roomier, more modern and high-tech.
Nice touch with all the Toshiba brand TV's
everywhere...if you know what THAT
signifies, you'll get my laughs!

Even the FLOOR felt squishier
more bouncy and soft UNLIKE
that weird floor material on
the Russian boomers!

amicktd
reply to post by SadistNocturne

 

Lol, I always like a good hug. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful or rude by any means, just trying to put a perspective on the situation and give my opinion on the subject.

Come here, big guy!!!!



- SN

amicktd
reply to post by MystikMushroom

 

That would have been something the USS Parche or now the USS Jimmy Carter would do. From what I have heard the USS Parche did have some type of robotic arm or crane type of thing built into the submarine. The problem is that if you were not part of the USS Parche crew. You were not even allowed to see the submarine, no matter what clearance you have. I have been told by friends that were on the Parche that it had that capability, but never witnessed it myself.

Parche not only had an arm, it had a permanent large scale lockout chamber/compression rig and an extended nose section that was full of spook equipment. I *think* Parche had a freaky "Dr No" sort of clamshell thing on the nose that could lock in/out large equipment. And sea bottom skids. It was very "Jonny Quest".

reply to post by Bedlam


Your probably right...I just told you what I had heard.

SadistNocturne
So awhile back, I'm talking to a friend. They had a TS clearance on board a US Navy nuclear submarine previously while serving back around the turn of the century. He was a cook, and I said to him "wow, that must have been fun!". And then he decided to tell me the following...

"Well, yeah...but you get a chance to observe and learn things. Like, take for instance, we were undersea for a good period of time (I think he said about a week, if I remember correctly), and suddenly we got the signal that we were "docked" over the intercomm. I was desperate to see some sunshine, so I bolted to go get above deck. One of the other crew grabbed me by the arm and said "look at the depth gauge"...it showed us as being some 400ft below the surface of the ocean. I thought this was strange, but went on about my duty. The next morning, I noticed that two or three people who had been on the submarine the entire trip were not in line that morning, and I also noticed two new people onboard, who hadn't reviously been through the mess hall. I asked if anyone had seen the crew I observed to be missing, and all I got was (and I, the OP am paraphrasing here) "it's above your paygrade". I kept an eye open, and never saw those two or three folks I'd noticed missing ever come back through the food line."

My friend went on to tell me that he thinks there is a high chance we have underwater military bases, and that he was part of a team at that time to perform staff rotation on one particular underwater military base.

I just thought this was rather interesting. I'd always heard about D.U.M.B's, but never underwater military bases.


Anyone have anything they can add to this ?



- SN

Of course I can't prove there are not secret underwater bases, but based on my experience on US subs I have never seen anything to indicate that we have them, and there are several holes in your friend's story...

First, a week submerged at sea is nothing - the longest I went without sunlight was 77 days.

sneeze100
Been a submariner i would say this is not true. You cant fly them around like a air plane and land on a dime. So to dock with a underwater facility would be nails. And everyone on board knows what you are doing more so for safety as that's the main priority. The sea is a cruel mistress.

I can also confirm this - If you are docking with anything we would "Station the Maneuvering Watch" beforehand, basically anyone who is not on duty has a specific station to report to. Imagine when the sub is trying to dock with something, there is a danger for damage to the boat due to collision. So you have people standing by to fight fires, stop leaks/flooding, security, etc. If a sub was going to dock, everyone would know about it because that would be the focus of the entire ship - it wouldn't just be announced out of the blue that they were docked.

If you were docked (Even at a normal surface port) you don't just get to run up and check out some sunlight and fresh air as soon as the sub is tied up to the pier - there are many tasks to do before the average crewmember can go topside like rigging the safety lines/barriers for one. On our way into San Diego one time, we surfaced a long way off shore and they allowed 2 people at a time to up into the tower and get some sunshine and fresh air for a couple minutes, but you had to request permission and wait your turn.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by SadistNocturne

 

OP, I'm probably going to sound like an idiot for asking ...but given how secretive and 'silent' the "Silent Service" tends to be, I won't feel too bad. Do submariners on modern submarines not have a general awareness of their position in the world? Obviously, in decades past, such information would have been a pain in the butt just to pass along, if no other concern existed about it. These days though?

Or is that just the movie version of what life on a modern sub is like?

I'm just wondering what Ocean and area, if he knew? Even a ballpark idea? A week travel makes for a big big circle of uncertainty...but 400 foot of depth narrows it considerably.

Sometimes our position, depth, and water temp were shown on a monitor (similar to what you have on long airline flights), and sometimes it is not available for security reasons.

Sacri
A rather interesting read OP. I have always wondered why people working on subs need a TS clearance, its the same here in Australia, as far as I am concerned.

On "normal" subs, everyone has a Secret clearance at a minimum - if you work in a more sensitive areas(communications as someone else said) then you are required to have a Top Secret clearance... And to confirm what amicktd said, on special OPs subs like the Parche everyone will have a TS clearance. The Parche was stationed at the same Base as my sub, but they had their own little dock separate from everyone else... Looks like it has since been decommissioned though. If your friend was on the Parche, I think that would be something of note he would have mentioned since they handle most of the super secret black ops missions and that would be a point of pride for most people.

I love that the fact that a week without sunlight is a 'hole',

in the OP story...


We can only 'believe' what we can believe; based on our own experiences, life is not explicable FACT!

I wouldn't tell lackies that I had underwater bases

SadistNocturne
I, the OP am paraphrasing here) "it's above your paygrade".

Quite true. The military personnel always use that term,
when any discussion starts getting into touchy realms.

f4andHALFtoads
I love that the fact that a week without sunlight is a 'hole',

in the OP story...


We can only 'believe' what we can believe; based on our own experiences, life is not explicable FACT!

I wouldn't tell lackies that I had underwater bases

Well, for the average person, I could imagine there would be real and succinct psychological issues to such a period of time without sunshine.

As it is, your body need sunshine to metabolize vitamin D. That alone is screwing with your body chemistry.


- SN

CommandoJoe
On "normal" subs, everyone has a Secret clearance at a minimum - if you work in a more sensitive areas(communications as someone else said) then you are required to have a Top Secret clearance... And to confirm what amicktd said, on special OPs subs like the Parche everyone will have a TS clearance. The Parche was stationed at the same Base as my sub, but they had their own little dock separate from everyone else... Looks like it has since been decommissioned though. If your friend was on the Parche, I think that would be something of note he would have mentioned since they handle most of the super secret black ops missions and that would be a point of pride for most people.

Suffice it to say.......

If I *did* remember the name of the sub he worked on, and whether or not he told me, it could have been that I did not mention it for a "specific" reason....I've already screwed up (IMHO) opinion by mentioning that he is a he whereas I was trying to make it gender neutral in the first part of this thread...

Thanks for actually reading what I had to say, considering your obvious background, and actually giving it some credence and respect....much unlike *quite* a few others have done on this thread.

My favorite one was "why would a cook (but wait, there ARE NO "cooks" on a sub!!!) need a TS clearance? I call BS!!!"...

SO yeah...thanks! I appreciate it


- SN

- EDIT - CJ, I tend to reread things a bunch after I click send...and it included your post. I caught what you were saying about a few holes in the story...with regards to a week being a long time...well...first of all, I may have mistakenly added emphasis on the concept of being under a week as this is technically second hand, not to mention the fact that I believe this person might have had reason for wanting to see sunlight when he got the chance...I know, WTF is someone going on a sub if they feel the need to see sunshine on a regular basis, but I'm not going to go any further into that.

Second, as far as the docking signal being announced, he was emphatic on this aspect, and well, he didn't go into detail as to what a typical docking is like. And whereas he is not a drinker, I am, and I'd had let's just say a "few" scotches at this point in the conversation. Perhaps he did mention these things, perhaps there was a flurry of activity. He simply said that when he had a chance, he made a break for it to get up for some sunshine. He did not acknowledge any kind of pecking order to get up above deck nor having to wait his turn. I can perfectly well understand how this would not only be the rule of thumb for such a scenario, but also a necessity as well only *so many* people can naturally be in that area above deck at a time, right ? I kinda think a person stationed in the kitchen might not be the first to be informed of an impending docking, given the logic that has been presented.

Honestly, given your statements, and reflecting back, I am left with the idea that these details we're not 100% necessary to the story as he was relating it to me. Much like when I write computer code that I tell my wife just went into Production tonight, I don't mention that I also had to put it through testing in the FSTST and FSUAT environments, with an audit trail and sign off on each migration, to boot. She simply doesn't care and the only important aspect that I am looking to impart on her is that a long and arduous task has come to its fruition. That's it, you know? I know that with my career, working with computers and programming, when you get into the minutae of a topic (the way my type are often want to do), non-IT folk tend to roll their eyes back into their heads and go into convulsions like those afflicted with epilepsy....not kidding you at all It's much like when the adults start to talk on the old Charlie Brown cartoons "wa waa? wa waa wa wa! wa wo we?" is all they hear, so you just don't even bother.

Also, although I whistled above and alluded to a thing or two, let's just say, what if it *were* a particularly unusual docking event...and it *was* a notoriously "decorated" sub....is it entirely unlikely that such an event would occur, say without the kitchens forem knowledge ?

reply to post by SadistNocturne


When a submarine goes to dock with a pier, we station the Maneuvering Watch. The Maneuvering Watch consists of the entire crew. Everyone onboard is essential to the safety of the ship mooring. You have to think we are operating a 3 billion dollar machine and we take zero chances. Not only is everyone stationed in a strategic position, but they are also making non-stop reports back and forth from the Control Room to the Engine Room in the back of the submarine over the communication circuits, which can be heard throughout the ship. Nobody is asleep, nobody is eating, nobody is even using the restroom...unless its an emergency. So based on that, there is no way that he didn't know what was going on...IJS. You wanted feedback and your getting it from a few people that have been on submarines, but it seems as if you don't wanna believe us. The story just doesn't make much sense, I'm sorry.