More Americans In Jail Than In Stalin's Gulag Archipelago

Originally posted by Hopechest

What crimes do not hurt society? I would argue that the very fact that you ignore a law would harm society because if people are allowed to pick and choose what laws to follow you will see that society break down. Therefore, every law is important.

I would argue there is no such thing as a victimless crime because every law that is broken is hurting society as a whole.

Now then in a North African country where it is normal and maybe even the LAW to use FGM on my daughter, I then "Harm" society by refusing to have her "De-clitted"? An old saying goes that where their is no complaint, there cannot be a "judge". Victimless means exactly that. If no one is hurt, then there is no use for this law.
And your argument to "pick and choose" is flawed, since no person with common sense and some ounce of brains would "choose" to "legalize" murder. And the rest is up to the community.
Or take the women and no driving laws in Saudi Arabia. What "Harm" would it be for "society" if some Saudi woman decided to surprise the people with an all out "Let's all drive today" protest drive of all women?
What "harm" did Rosa Parks do to society?
Your arguments are exactly the same defense arguments the Nazis use during their war-crime trials. "I just followed orders! I just obeyed the law."

There are several reasons why drugs are prohibited, especially stronger ones.

All of us know how dangerous they are for individuals. A society needs to think on its future. If all drugs were made legal, it would end up with 50%+ of people being junkies... Kids would get access to drugs over the counter etc.

Another reason for these being illegal is the fact that we influence each other in lots of ways. If there were too many junkies, it would set a really bad example for the next generation. There are too many even right now. Kids pick up on such things. If they see such act as normal, they might try it and we all know hard it is to get over the addiction. Here for example, you get much higher fine/punishment when caught jaywalking/doing something illegal in front of kids.

+ all the consequences that might come from using illegal drugs (stronger ones like meth, exctacy etc).

I personally see nothing wrong with the drugs being illegal. Possession of small amounts of softer ones
should be just warning/fine, although I would not mind if every drug dealer got a very long sentence.

Originally posted by Guenter

Originally posted by Hopechest

What crimes do not hurt society? I would argue that the very fact that you ignore a law would harm society because if people are allowed to pick and choose what laws to follow you will see that society break down. Therefore, every law is important.

I would argue there is no such thing as a victimless crime because every law that is broken is hurting society as a whole.

Now then in a North African country where it is normal and maybe even the LAW to use FGM on my daughter, I then "Harm" society by refusing to have her "De-clitted"? An old saying goes that where their is no complaint, there cannot be a "judge". Victimless means exactly that. If no one is hurt, then there is no use for this law.
And your argument to "pick and choose" is flawed, since no person with common sense and some ounce of brains would "choose" to "legalize" murder. And the rest is up to the community.
Or take the women and no driving laws in Saudi Arabia. What "Harm" would it be for "society" if some Saudi woman decided to surprise the people with an all out "Let's all drive today" protest drive of all women?
What "harm" did Rosa Parks do to society?
Your arguments are exactly the same defense arguments the Nazis use during their war-crime trials. "I just followed orders! I just obeyed the law."

In many African countries FGM is considered normal...as disgusting as it is.

Yes you would be harming society by not following that law. If you do not like the law of a certain society you may choose to try and change it or leave.

I do not like many of the muslim laws but If I were living in that society I would abide by them.

Originally posted by Hopechest
Yes it doesn't harm anyone but the laws are fairly clear. I will never be arrested for drugs because I don't associate with them.

If you want to play the game in that arena then you know the consequences.

Oh, how very self-righteous of you.

Tell that to the people who have possession of drug charges placed against them just because their cash had trace amounts of drugs detected on them. Tell that to the person who had her used car seized because a crack vial was found in the car from a previous owner.

Tell that to all the people who were charged with contempt of court because a summons got sent to a wrong address.

reply to post by Cabin


Lets not spin this thread into a drug debate since I would hate to see it locked. The OP has brought up a very interesting topic however and its great to see how many of us view the issue of laws different.

Originally posted by Junkheap

Originally posted by Hopechest
Yes it doesn't harm anyone but the laws are fairly clear. I will never be arrested for drugs because I don't associate with them.

If you want to play the game in that arena then you know the consequences.

Oh, how very self-righteous of you.

Tell that to the people who have possession of drug charges placed against them just because their cash had trace amounts of drugs detected on them. Tell that to the person who had her used car seized because a crack vial was found in the car from a previous owner.

Tell that to all the people who were charged with contempt of court because a summons got sent to a wrong address.

Not all laws are perfect by any stretch of the imagination but does that mean we should do away with them or try and correct them?

Your examples are definitely situations of the law not working properly and I admit that. We need to fix those instances though, not get rid of the law until society determines we no longer need it.

Originally posted by Hopechest

Originally posted by Guenter

Originally posted by Hopechest

What crimes do not hurt society? I would argue that the very fact that you ignore a law would harm society because if people are allowed to pick and choose what laws to follow you will see that society break down. Therefore, every law is important.

I would argue there is no such thing as a victimless crime because every law that is broken is hurting society as a whole.

Now then in a North African country where it is normal and maybe even the LAW to use FGM on my daughter, I then "Harm" society by refusing to have her "De-clitted"? An old saying goes that where their is no complaint, there cannot be a "judge". Victimless means exactly that. If no one is hurt, then there is no use for this law.
And your argument to "pick and choose" is flawed, since no person with common sense and some ounce of brains would "choose" to "legalize" murder. And the rest is up to the community.
Or take the women and no driving laws in Saudi Arabia. What "Harm" would it be for "society" if some Saudi woman decided to surprise the people with an all out "Let's all drive today" protest drive of all women?
What "harm" did Rosa Parks do to society?
Your arguments are exactly the same defense arguments the Nazis use during their war-crime trials. "I just followed orders! I just obeyed the law."

In many African countries FGM is considered normal...as disgusting as it is.

Yes you would be harming society by not following that law. If you do not like the law of a certain society you may choose to try and change it or leave.

I do not like many of the muslim laws but If I were living in that society I would abide by them.

Hitler and other despots would have fallen in love with your logic.
Sorry but you out of my chain of people I shall reply to.

Originally posted by Guenter

Originally posted by Hopechest

Originally posted by Guenter

Originally posted by Hopechest

What crimes do not hurt society? I would argue that the very fact that you ignore a law would harm society because if people are allowed to pick and choose what laws to follow you will see that society break down. Therefore, every law is important.

I would argue there is no such thing as a victimless crime because every law that is broken is hurting society as a whole.

Now then in a North African country where it is normal and maybe even the LAW to use FGM on my daughter, I then "Harm" society by refusing to have her "De-clitted"? An old saying goes that where their is no complaint, there cannot be a "judge". Victimless means exactly that. If no one is hurt, then there is no use for this law.
And your argument to "pick and choose" is flawed, since no person with common sense and some ounce of brains would "choose" to "legalize" murder. And the rest is up to the community.
Or take the women and no driving laws in Saudi Arabia. What "Harm" would it be for "society" if some Saudi woman decided to surprise the people with an all out "Let's all drive today" protest drive of all women?
What "harm" did Rosa Parks do to society?
Your arguments are exactly the same defense arguments the Nazis use during their war-crime trials. "I just followed orders! I just obeyed the law."

In many African countries FGM is considered normal...as disgusting as it is.

Yes you would be harming society by not following that law. If you do not like the law of a certain society you may choose to try and change it or leave.

I do not like many of the muslim laws but If I were living in that society I would abide by them.

Hitler and other despots would have fallen in love with your logic.
Sorry but you out of my chain of people I shall reply to.

And you would go around the world telling different societies to follow your morals and ethics instead of letting them decide how to live themselves?

Colonial view that is very outdated....."Lets tame them savages.."

sad

I'd just like to make clear that I would never endorse breaking laws!

I'd like to also endorse to all of those that do break laws and victimize others to stop making your problems become problems to society as well. If you happen to victimize others along with yourself, I will support any and all punishments handed down to you by laws and law enforcers. I want my tax contributions to support ridding society of being victimized by the problems of others.

For those of you that do nothing to victimize others, I wish nothing but good things for your life. If the law processes affected yours or a family members life, I'd like to apologize to you for being subjected to unnecessary scrutiny and hardships, for doing things that others feel you should not do while living your own life. I do not endorse incarceration of those that did nothing to victimize anyone but themselves in life. I'd like to see our society become more compassionate towards the problems of others, and do things to assist those with needs of finding ways to do things in life that won't hurt themselves further... this includes wishes that 'Hopechest' holds and practices these same compassions. I'd do anything I could to assist a member of our society get 'help' or to get 'better', so long as your wrong doings do not victimize the life of another member of society. Whether it be advice or just an ear to listen to, I am always available to lend a helping hand.

I wholeheartedly believe that separating victimless crimes from those that involve victimizing others would not only be helpful to society as a whole, but would save a whole lot of tax payer money as well. There would also be the added benefit of showing our children that we care about individuals in our society, and that we clearly understand that nobody as a human being is perfect.

Now only if our jail system was more like Stalin's Gulag then we would most likely have way less people in jail...my thoughts are that prison should be the absolutely worst experience ever bar none...so that if you do get out you sure dont want to do anything that would ever get you back in..
I also remember reading a stat that said it cost on average $35,000 a year to house feed and keep 1 inmate...if that is true then we really have trouble in the US...
I think we need to go back to the "bread and water" days of prison with no rights no workout equipment no tv.. nothin ...but they can keep the shower rapes just for the extra deterrent

reply to post by Hopechest


I have to insert my point of view here. If a law is unjust or serving no purpose to society, then yes that society should act to do away with it or change it so that it does serve the general good. It is not just their rigt to do so, wehether the government allows it or not, but it is their duty to be as individual members of society to be the moral compass. No society is perfect. No set of laws is perfect. Here in the USA there is obviously some problems with our legal system. Many people are in prison for things that were crimes at the time and are now legal. Many more are in prison for crimes that are harmful only to themselves. I personally do not use or like the effects of illegal drugs such as marijuana, and I certainly do not advocate breaking the law. I do however enjoy a few drinks now and then. (google the translation of my screen name) I know that when i drink, I am harming myself and become a possible problem for society, but it is legal. It has been said tat a drunk driver will speed right through a stop sign, but a driver under the influence of marijuana will stop and wait for the sign to turn green. one is much more of a threat to the general public than the other.

Originally posted by Terminal1
It just seems that the US is jail crazy

Other nations in the EU are finding that if they don't house people in jail for misdemeanors and non-violent drug offenses that they save money. And they have shut many jails down.

Originally posted by Hopechest
Well unlike Stalin's Russia, our people know what sends them to prison and yet they still do it.

Perhaps you shouldn't blame the prison system.

When there's a profit to be made, of course they're going to incarcerate you for even the smallest infraction.

Homeland Security test 'Minority Report' system which knows when you're even THINKING about committing a crime
^
If correct, the future of our children.

Money talks, Bulls*** walks.

Originally posted by QuantumDeath

Money talks, Bulls*** walks.

That is what america has become and has been for a long long time.

I'll take people committing crimes and getting arrested for 200, wink.

(note: that is a reference to a game show)

Thank God For Penitentiaries - Richard Pryor

Well the US is one extreme but places like the UK are the other extreme. In the US there seems to be a policy to criminalize as many people as possible over minor infractions like J walking (pedestrians crossing at the wrong part of the road) for those of you that don't know what it means..because I think it's the only country in the world with this law. A guy I know went on holiday there one time, and was ignorant to this quirky law, and he later told me he crossed a street at about 3am when there was no traffic in sight anyway...A cop pulls up and almost bites his head off for walking across an empty road...Also this cop was alone and very threatening...when there was absolutely no need for his attitude. If the guy had of answered him back it would have no doubt led to his arrest...etc...for crossing a street.

In the UK, people commit violent assaults and get suspended sentences...and usually these criminals have long records...So we have it the other way around here...the mentality seems to be because its so expensive to keep people in jail, hardly anyone ends up there, when lots more people should really be doing time for serious crimes. Our prisons are funded by the tax payer, where as the USA's are private companies in many cases...So you can see what both models lead to...extremes.

Originally posted by Hopechest
Well unlike Stalin's Russia, our people know what sends them to prison and yet they still do it.

Perhaps you shouldn't blame the prison system.

Yes you can blame the prison system. You can find plenty of evidence of judges being bought by them so they send more people to prison. Having a for profit prison system is just moronic.

reply to post by Hopechest

those rules do not have to make sense.

You heard it here first everyone, rules and laws do not have to make sense they just have to be supported by the majority. Logic and reason be damned.

You must be fine with Sharia Law then since it is supported by the majority in countries it is implemented in.

ETA: That being said is it perfectly fine for thieves to have their hands cut off if that is what the law says?

Originally posted by Hopechest
Well unlike Stalin's Russia, our people know what sends them to prison and yet they still do it.

Perhaps you shouldn't blame the prison system.

No, and i suppose there are no judges or lawmen guilty of providing bodies to the private prison work system......
The corporate profits taken from such a ridgid prison system are immense...
Wasnt some judge just busted for supplying prisoners who were not guilty?
The system is ripe for corruption......

Originally posted by EvilDuck
Or maybe its just that our police force catches more people over here.

Our police force shuts down the Boston area, goes around doing sweeping, illegal door-to-door searches, hoisting citizens out of their homes at gunpoint, all to catch one kid, and that kid is caught by a civilian no less.

But, you know, maybe, JUST MAYBE, our incompetent cops catch more people over here.
Give me a break...