If your city is on "lock-down", do NOT look outside.

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by inverslyproportional

 

I'm sorry, but you aren't living in the real world where bad things happen if you think that.

You react, and you do it quickly, or you die.

I am amazed at the utter naivety of people posting here. Its like people seem to think its like the movies where the bad guys are poor shots who always miss, or someone fires a warning shot, or there are ways to dodge bullets. Its actually scary to read how people see this and quite disturbing.

Life or death.

Ask the family of cop who got killed whether bad things happen. Maybe he could have handled it differently huh?

Oh wait, he didn't get chance to.

So your reaction to my factual accounting is to try to appeal to an emotional knee jerk response?

I was trained and operated in the "real world" as a soldier form the U.S. ARMY for 6 years. You have your head on a swivel, you use it, what takes more time, to move your head and use your eyes to assess and find potential threats? Or to aim your weapon, partially blocking your view, and your entire upper body, to aim at everything your trying to scan?

Accidents kill more folks in the military than combat these days, when you dont point your weapon at everything that moves, there cant be any accidents in that department can there?

Have you ever seen the way actual soldiers do their work? You dont see them aiming at every civie running down the street even when under fire, you see them maintaining muzzle and trigger finger discipline at all times, and only aiming at actual targets, and then only doing so when they are firing or about to fire.

Just go to youtube, there is plenty of footage.

You are ignoring my factual accounting, because it doesnt fit your view of things.

I have not once appealed to emotion, nor have I thrown out what if scenarios, I have been stating facts, long known and followed facts, about the actual use and methods involved in tactical actions.

This is the difference between my replies, and those from you that havent been properly trained, you guys think you know, I know I do.

It is a large and marked difference.


I will simply agree to disagree with you, as it seems you too have already made up your mind, and no amount of discourse will sway you.

Good day.

reply to post by neformore

Which person is the suspect with the loaded weapon pointing at you? Do you know? 

If any civilian could be, and it is okay to lay that finger on the trigger, then why not just shoot them all? You might get the right one sooner or later.

See, it is that crew of military people going down the street with fingers on the triggers, pointed at innocent civilians. .. as if they are terrorists that is a problem.

reply to post by neformore


That's not good enough by our Constitutional standards. Boston/Cambridge/Watertown is/was not a war zone.


If there was not probable cause to believe Tsarnaev was in one of a few specific houses in the area, there most certainly was not probable cause to believe he could be in any of the houses in area. They had no idea where he was...thus no probable cause for such extreme measures as reflected in the pic.

All citizens in area cannot be considered suspects, there must be reasonable cause.

Originally posted by Covertblack

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
Everyone should own a megaphpone and if cops show up on your street everyone begin giving the police commands to return to their vehicles and leave the area.
Use that in conjunction with full -size paper blowups of persons standing with M16s in windows.
Good luck finding neighbors with that kind of sense of adventure though.....

Which will directly help a murderer, rapist, terrorist, run free. I guess you have to chose your companions.

How would that help a criminal, was he found hiding in a house?
Sticking up for our rights is helping terrorists run free, got it chief.
Everybody lay down and get steamrolled by the law for our own good.
Never mind that the suspects were purported terrorists.
You know they were guilty, the media told you they were.
Pesky trials are a waste of taxpayer money too, right?

reply to post by Covertblack


The area where he was caught was just outside the cordoned off area.
Some one else brought this up before also about hostages. If that was the worry ten it would seem that "asking people to stay in thier homes would have only made it more difficult to acertain where he was and wether poeple were being held hostage. Obviously if your goin about your business your not a hostage.

Furthermore after the initial murder, I mean arrest, I mean due process, oh hell I don't know what to call it there was no indication that he was a threat to anyone. Turns out he wasn't.

reply to post by Covertblack

 It's that the police are now facing military style weapons, which means they need to to also adapt. 

What do you mean, 'now facing military style weapons'?

When did we American citizens suddenly gain some right to more easily possess 'military style weapons'. Since 1934 it has been increasingly difficult to own what the military has for weapons. Unless you know something different than I do.

reply to post by Covertblack


Lets say in the boston area w/ in a 5 mile radias lets guess maybe 200, 500 suspects. its really not a good argument. Th/ey employ 15000 agents, are not lims and lives worth at least checking

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

What would you have them do?

I'm curious.

I see people condeming this whole thing over and over - so what would you have the LEO's do in this situation?

You're essentially making the same point I was across the thread until last night. Even now, I'm not directly questioning the numbers or nature of the response....not necessarily.

What hit me as so wrong is what Invers has also noted. The trigger discipline above all that I first saw in this thread pic that another member took time to zoom in and see for sure ..but then in videos people shot of the house clearing as well. Muzzle discipline as well. I'm no Solider or Cop to have been through the life changing level of training they are ...and even I feel physically uncomfortable if my finger crosses into the trigger guard of a firearm I'm holding where I'm not planning to immediately fire it. So too, for "lasing" the muzzle right across other people and things not meant to be destroyed in the next seconds.

To express how serious that issue is, IMO, I have to explain where I so recently saw it hammered into folks. My CCW training was done by a local company that also supplies law enforcement training and run by a man whose entire life has been law enforcement training and support ..among other things. 1 incident of 'lasing' (imagine the barrel emits a laser dot..and then consider what that dot crosses at all times. If it isn't something you're okay with totally destroying by intent or accident...it should NEVER cross it) was enough to get a dressing down in front of the class. A second incident was enough to be warned their CCW cert was in jeopardy. The 3rd time ended their class time and whatever they'd paid into the effort, to try again another time.

Some of these videos show these "cops" aiming at the heads of people coming out their front doors. Not near them ..where aim can be brought to shoot in less than a second ..but right into their faces. Some with fingers on triggers. (Watch 'COPS' sometime ..I know I know..it's no source ..but still, watch the firearm handling. You almost NEVER see a cop finger the trigger. Even in high stress arrest situations. Never) So unprofessional and contrary to everything I know for basic firearms training as to stand out as just cowboy..and ringing bells so loud, it's deafening.

So, just in clarification, my change of feeling isn't about the fact they went on a real hard manhunt for those who would bomb a marathon ...but just how that was done and with whom.

My task now though is first to finish my final term projects and get through final exams ...then collect up as much source high-resolution imagery on this topic as I can find ..where reading things like the (missing?) insignia and ID can be done. Little things... Until then? Heck.. I'm no better than anyone else making wild guesses. It's just a gut feeling I can't ignore now, is what it comes down to. Like the pictures of a cat in plain view but blended so well it's a "puzzle" to find it. You know it's there ...You KNOW you should be seeing it ...but often, it's invisible until someone points it out. Then of course, you can never see the image again without clearly seeing what wasn't visible before, eh?

Originally posted by kosmicjack
reply to post by neformore

 

That's not good enough by our Constitutional standards. Boston/Cambridge/Watertown is/was not a war zone.


If there was not probable cause to believe Tsarnaev was in one of a few specific houses in the area, there most certainly was not probable cause to believe he could be in any of the houses in area. They had no idea where he was...thus no probable cause for such extreme measures as reflected in the pic.

All citizens in area cannot be considered suspects, there must be reasonable cause.

This posts right here, very accurately points out the difference between the way it is supposed to work, and the way they worked it.

Even in a actual warzone, even while being fired upon, you are still not allowed to point your weapon at everyone you see running, because they might be an enemy.

Innocent until proven guilty, this means that weapons remain at the ready, down across the body, hands on, ready to be brought into action in an instant if needed.

Not ready to shoot, as everyone you see is a potential target.

This is the reason the police shoot so many of the wrong folks these days.

They have a " my safety comes first" attitude.

If you want to be safe, dont volunteer for a dangerous job.

I know, maybe the fire department should never enter a burning structure, because their safety comes first, or the crab fishermen should just stay at port, because their safety comes first, or truck drivers should stay at the truck stop, as driving is dangerous, and their safety comes first, or soldiers should just shoot everyone that runs down the street durring a firefight, as their safety should come first etc.... I could go on all day, but you get the idea, or your never going to.

ETF- I mistyped do volunteer, I meant to type dont volunteer.

reply to post by inverslyproportional


I'm glad someone can explain the proper hanling of a weapon. Thats the first thing I learnd don't ever point a weapon at some one unless you plan to use it.
Then i practiced spelling

reply to post by kosmicjack


People died, in bombings, through an act of terrorism, carried out by people who have no regard for human safety and wellbeing whatsoever.

And you expect the LEO's and anti-terror people to observe niceties when trying to catch that person?

What if they'd killed again, or blow somewhere else up?

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by kosmicjack

 

People died, in bombings, through an act of terrorism, carried out by people who have no regard for human safety and wellbeing whatsoever.

And you expect the LEO's and anti-terror people to observe niceties when trying to catch that person?

What if they'd killed again, or blow somewhere else up?

What if they shot innocent civilians for using cameras? At what point is the cure more dangerous than the disease?

Originally posted by Asktheanimals

Originally posted by Covertblack

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
Everyone should own a megaphpone and if cops show up on your street everyone begin giving the police commands to return to their vehicles and leave the area.
Use that in conjunction with full -size paper blowups of persons standing with M16s in windows.
Good luck finding neighbors with that kind of sense of adventure though.....

Which will directly help a murderer, rapist, terrorist, run free. I guess you have to chose your companions.

How would that help a criminal, was he found hiding in a house?
Sticking up for our rights is helping terrorists run free, got it chief.
Everybody lay down and get steamrolled by the law for our own good.
Never mind that the suspects were purported terrorists.
You know they were guilty, the media told you they were.
Pesky trials are a waste of taxpayer money too, right?

Well I can't change what you are going to believe. But I know that yelling at the cops and putting card board cutouts of people with guns isn't going to help.

Originally posted by ivbnu
reply to post by Covertblack

 

Lets say in the boston area w/ in a 5 mile radias lets guess maybe 200, 500 suspects. its really not a good argument. Th/ey employ 15000 agents, are not lims and lives worth at least checking

For around the clock coverage of all the suspects I would imagine it's several thousands. I don't see them able to do that much coverage. Especially someone they couldn't find enough on to proceed with anything.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Covertblack

 

 It's that the police are now facing military style weapons, which means they need to to also adapt. 

What do you mean, 'now facing military style weapons'?

When did we American citizens suddenly gain some right to more easily possess 'military style weapons'. Since 1934 it has been increasingly difficult to own what the military has for weapons. Unless you know something different than I do.

We have always had the right, but technology has changed has it not? Haven't the rounds we use, and the system platforms changed?

The real question is - what is the point of terrorism? It to make us afraid. They want us to tear each other up looking for them. They want us to be afraid to leave our houses.
Many of them want to paint the US as overbearing, hypocritical, tyrants. To make the rest of the world afraid of the US Government. To rally others to their cause.
This type of response is EXACTLY what the terrorists want!

The picture posted by the OP is terror.

reply to post by gladtobehere


Look at the rest of the picture. There are 12 other men on the ground and not one of them is looking up
Would you like to know why?

Because they are going door to door in search of a man that just blew up a bunch of people at a marathon. They aren't looking up because they know that there is one of the best soldiers on this planet looking up for them.

Would you prefer that he guard their lives with a pair of binoculars? You do realize that they'd all be sitting ducks to someone with a gun instead of a camera don't you?

My hat's off to this soldier
And shame on you

reply to post by Covertblack


I'll see if i can find out how many people were on a watch list for Boston.
I don't think that if it was say 500 that it would have been unreasonable to have an agent tail each one that morning. If they can roll out 9000 troops to look for one kid surly they can spare 500 to tail people.

Originally posted by Danbones
Funny, he can point a gun at you, but you can NOT point a gun at him...

Nah..you can point a gun at him too. He's just waiting for an excuse. He's in alert mode.

The silly thing here is that while he's paying attention to the camera man, the real threat could be behind him pointing a loaded weapon. He wouldn't even know, till it's too late.

These guys are all actors.

It there were any real threats in the neighborhood, he'd be busy "scanning" the area, not focusing his attention on the camera man.

He'd know immediately, that someone pointing a camera, doesn't plan to shoot.

But, this is all posturing. It's theater. Not a real combat zone.

Originally posted by ivbnu
reply to post by Covertblack

 

I'll see if i can find out how many people were on a watch list for Boston.
I don't think that if it was say 500 that it would have been unreasonable to have an agent tail each one that morning. If they can roll out 9000 troops to look for one kid surly they can spare 500 to tail people.

They had backed off because they didn't have enough info to move forward with an investigation. At least according to their initial reports.