An experiment to try with your friends and family. Turn off the car audio.

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation
Let us remember that correlation does not prove causation.

Yup... thus at least wanting to hear more of what people have noticed individual or not to see if it's even worth thinking further on whether there is anything deeper to consider.

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation
Now I am drawing from my own experiences and observations. Quick background info to help out – I went back to college 3 years ago at the age of 27 and I speak openly in classes on topics that I think might be taboo to speak of publicly, only to find a lot of the students fresh from H.S. had input for, or some general knowledge of the topics. It changed my initial opinion that the youth were out of touch with reality.

I like Phillip K. Dick's attitude on that... lemme quote him:

A child of today can detect a lie quicker than the wisest adult of two decades ago. When I want to know what is true, I ask my children. They do not ask me; I turn to them.

Obviously it's a bit hyperbolic... but the point has a lot of truth. The kids when treated like human beings are always shockingly aware when given the chance and no longer afraid to admit it. I spend way more time observing the youth than the (majority) stuck in their ways adults.

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation
Just imagine, we want to help make people aware through our methods (labeled conspiracy). One day the momentum shifts in our favor and it is now a “social norm.” Wait, I think we may be living in such times, not to the point of being a social norm just yet, but look at the popularity of conspiracy shows being aired, or shows that postulate a lot but never give a straight forward answer (yet manage to get the mind rolling). Then again this could all be by design of the Big 6 (in the USA).

It's been fascinating to watch the last decade hasn't it?

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation
Good topic by the way. Music is a powerful tool, always has been, always will be. The tools effectiveness is up to the person using it (good or bad). Sound waves, patterns, frequencies, and vibrations can all have an effect on our minds at the subconscious level.

Thanks! I had a discussion with a friend where I finally got him to see that "music" and words are *literally* magic on one level (it is a form of mental "conjuring")... and *literally* cast spells on that same level. So if you don't go into it respecting that, you are always going to be at the mercy of those who do respect it (for good and bad).

Originally posted by fictitious
My husband has an addiction to "background noise". He is actually on his way home from a business trip right now and chose to drive. I just talked to him, and he said he couldn't stand that he was in an area with no radio stations. I told him to enjoy the silence for once, and he said it was giving him anxiety. I personally think it's ridiculous. I do listen to the radio sometimes, but most of the time it is off. I'm the opposite, and I actually get anxiety when it's on too much. I tend to just flip out and turn it off when I'm with someone in the car.

That's really interesting. Does he know what it is he is feeling anxiety *about* when he feels it? Like is it conjuring specific feelings of other parts of his life... or just outright without the "sensation" his ears/mind/body feel strange the same way when you first take a cast off a broken arm after a long time and it's all tingly and strange and often uncomfortable?

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation
Yes, even quiet is something to "listen to".

Silence is the most content full and rich station I've ever listened to... and it's always changing rather than repeating the same old hits over and over.

anyway...

My car radio listen declined a lot with age. My music has always been Alternative (more or less, genres come and go on a weekly basis). That made me anti-media. Believe me, Gen X had zero representation in media, coming on the heels of Baby Boomers.

So every week or two I take long trips of a few hours and it really does clear my mind. Without that time-out, I feel bit frustrated, to carefully select a word.

One more thing that I want to add.... A UK study found that smarter people preferred a more complex rhythms and less smart...less complex.

Originally posted by FlyingFox
So every week or two I take long trips of a few hours and it really does clear my mind. Without that time-out, I feel bit frustrated, to carefully select a word.

It's pretty much meditation. Well nah I'll just say it... it *is* meditation.

Originally posted by FlyingFox
One more thing that I want to add.... A UK study found that smarter people preferred a more complex rhythms and less smart...less complex.

That's amusingly Taoist if you take it all the way to the silence point as "least complex rhythm of all" while also being "most complex rhythm of all".

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion


I would only point out that those who tend to follow the concepts that if they take a position or do actions consistent with the idea that in doing such things that show either directly or indirectly some form od defiance or loathing of any entertainment garnished through the Mass Media...that they will be seen by others as enlightened or above a click concieved waste of time that could be better spent in others ways such as meditation or perhaps observation of the natural world.

In my opinion...such thought is as corruptive as what one either thinks or does not think watching a weekend long FRIENDS Marathon.

Gee...is Ross or Joey going to ask her out? Or...Hey! Now I know why her last name is Coxx!

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Agreed. If you seek silence to seek being "superior" in order to view others as "inferior", well... the wise know you'll find yourself exactly opposite where you expected. And most will forget that they are now calling their former self inferior... and thus must conclude that their current self is inferior relative to their future self so if they are reasonable must throw themselves into the bucket of "inferior people" as opposed to just "different".

That said if you seek silence from media to study what it's like to not watch the media... in the same way one seeks to study Calculus... and will from then on be able to state matter of factly that "I have learned from this experience which you have not yet experienced which has shown me some new tools I can use now" and nothing more... that's different.

Though offense could be taken, it's only because the one who hasn't done said experience (calculus or withdrawal from pop-culture) has some belief within themselves that they think they *should* but won't... or think the other person is implying they *should* "learn calculus"... as opposed to being informed "If you do study Calculus... these are the sort of principles we've learned which you are likely to discover you never knew you had/could do too".

Originally posted by FlyingFox
I have a theory that rythmic music helps focus the brain. It's almost like how a computer process syncronizes to a central clock frequency. The music resets the brain clock/timing/frequency or whatever.

Something like this will make you feel good...

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by FlyingFox
One more thing that I want to add.... A UK study found that smarter people preferred a more complex rhythms and less smart...less complex.

I am completely on board that certain types of music are very effective at actually enhancing the brain focus and attention... as well as others which help it "drift" and "explore"... versus others that basically just "take up time" though sometimes that's exactly what you want.

Thank you for the music link, I've been listening to it for a while. Been a long time since I spent a whole night listening to Vivaldi only.

My hubby disconnected his radio in the car on purpose. When we are making a 3 hr drive up north, I read to him instead.
I've got my head down reading from my Nook, while he pretends to be listening. Since I'm looking down, I am
not watching the traffic, therefore I'm unable to nag and complain about his driving.

He wouldn't have it any other way now.

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion


I do think that you are onto something. Further investigation and experimentation should be considered. Reading the op, you have followed the scientific method- observation, hypothesis, experiments, & theory. Further testing would be great, maybe a breakdown by genres of music and their effect, or cross study mainstream genres to their underground counterparts.

I remember once hearing of a study that was done to compare students GPA’s to the type of music they listened to. What I recall was that students who listened to Outkast had a higher GPA than a student who listened to Lil Wayne. I looked online, and so far turned up this image with a chart SAT Scores vs. Music You Listen To.

Still this is not a constant. There are many people who don’t fit this mold, just thought you might like a visual.

The quote just became my reflection for the night. Thank you…..

The last decade has certainly been interesting times; I have come a long way in the way I perceive the world around me. As to your discussion with your friend, I agree with you, well said.

Originally posted by tropic
My dad's car doesn't have a radio. Its weird when i sometimes fly into USA and dont have that luxury of tuning into the 'news' station... and I'm minimalist so its not like I have itunes pandora or anything like that

Its weird not that most of us cant live without radio at all but that pop/crap most people need to be listening to 24/7...

what do u guys listen to in the car, or do you not have a radio/audio source playing most of the time??

Chopin, Franz Liszt, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, John Coltrane, Medeski Martin and Wood, Claude Debussy. Almost always have something on. Seems not to interfere with my stream of consciousness too much. Broadcast radio is maddening.

I have no friends, my only driving companions being my two- and five-year-old kids. They don`t mind the silence when I do turn the music off.

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion

Originally posted by fictitious
My husband has an addiction to "background noise". He is actually on his way home from a business trip right now and chose to drive. I just talked to him, and he said he couldn't stand that he was in an area with no radio stations. I told him to enjoy the silence for once, and he said it was giving him anxiety. I personally think it's ridiculous. I do listen to the radio sometimes, but most of the time it is off. I'm the opposite, and I actually get anxiety when it's on too much. I tend to just flip out and turn it off when I'm with someone in the car.

That's really interesting. Does he know what it is he is feeling anxiety *about* when he feels it? Like is it conjuring specific feelings of other parts of his life... or just outright without the "sensation" his ears/mind/body feel strange the same way when you first take a cast off a broken arm after a long time and it's all tingly and strange and often uncomfortable?

Originally posted by IntrinsicMotivation
Yes, even quiet is something to "listen to".

Silence is the most content full and rich station I've ever listened to... and it's always changing rather than repeating the same old hits over and over.

edit on 6-2-2013 by ErgoTheConclusion because: (no reason given)

"Next to silence, the thing which comes closest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley (I think)

Originally posted by signalfire And I would like to say that I'm now in love with the OP; I can't tell if you're young or old, but damn, what a beautifully insightful mind! I'm jealous of your skill with words and long ranging thought processes.

...Well now yer just crazy but thank you as that is very meaningful and heart warming. I'm old to the young and young to the old at 36.

Whippersnapper!! I got socks older than you!

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion


Our conversation of this subject reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend as we laughed our asses off on Christmas Night while visiting a mutual friends Parents home.

Our Friends parents both had Doctorates in English Literature and I will tell you...THAT and 75 Cents will NOT buy you a cup of coffee! LOL!

They BOTH taught English at a local High School and both thought that they were the greatest thing since Sliced Bread! LOL!

They were having a conversation with their friends about how people do not use much in the way of Vocabulary as well as cannot spell. Since I am a Notoriously Bad Speller but do have an extensive vocabulary....as my buddies Mom brought up how no one at the table would not know the definition or be able to spell the word...Parsimonious.

Now I knew that PARSIMONIOUS basically means...CHEAP or EXTREMELY STINGY. I also knew for some reason how to spell it as I sometimes retain bits of useless information. I informed her and her husband that I knew the words meaning and could PROVE that spelling has no bearing on a person being able to know a words definition as well as how spelling is MEANINGLESS to a persons ability to recognize it or a person being able to recognize definition of a mispelled word as knowing a words definition is a thing of memory.

I took a piece of paper and wrote the word like this...Parsimoaneeus. Everyone in the room was able to pronounce it properly...still besides her and her husband...only I knew what it ment.

I said...the word means CHEAP and if you had just used the word CHEAP instead of Parsimonious everyone here would have understood what you were saying.

I then said...although some who have spent their lives studying archaic vocabulary in an effort to make themselves and others believe that by using such words in a sentence that they are intelligent. However this is just self masterbation as logic determines that intelligence is shown by the person in a conversation having a great ability to communicate their thoughts by the use of language thus verbal skills. As an analogy...what determines a person is a Good Golfer is not ones ability to be able to drive a ball the longest...the Good Golfer is a person who can make the ball get into the holes by the least number of legal swings of the club.

So no matter how many words you might be able to spell or know the definition of...as far as a conversation....ability is dependent upon your ability to communicate your meaning so that everyone can both understand and relate to it.

I have NEVER seen two peoples faces get that RED! LOL!

Split Infinity

It's the "stuck with only your thoughts" during the silence part that I feel is affecting people the most. For me it was interesting to observe that the audio is like an addiction and without it, those who are the most "plugged in" tend to get uneasy/agitated. Sometimes to the point of reaching up and turning it on and demanding that they can't stand the quiet, or playing something on their phone.

Or maybe it's because people are accustomed to listening to music while driving?? It's a habit, so yes it might seem "addicting." You must be very socially awkward if you can't see how driving in a silent car with someone could be awkward(sorry not trying to be offensive here). Plus, most cars are still pretty noisy even without music playing. Music serves a good role of covering up that god awful racket. It also helps pass the time. I usually follow the motto "It's the journey that matters, not the destination," but that just doesn't apply with car rides. They're things most people want to be as short as possible. unless you're just cruisin around, and even then you have to have music! Something about car rides and music just go great together! And I'm someone who meditates daily, I'm very comforatable with my thoughts.
I'm the least "plugged in" person I know(don't use facebook, don't have cable, etc), but I always listen to music in my car. Driving is just not a good time to be deep in thought.

I've actually left the radio off a couple of times when I picked up friends. They usually turn it on pretty quickly, but they never got uneasy.

I think you have noticed an interesting phenomenon. Your reasoning for it is completely off the mark.


P.S. There's a reason they require double-blind studies for experiments.....it's because if you do experiments like the one you tried, you'll see what you want to see. In your mind, you really saw a correlation with how "plugged in" people are, and how quickly they turn on the radio. Time and time again, whenever people do an experiment expecting something, it will turn out that way.

Me and my brothers listen to a little music then turn it off or down. We mostly make up our own songs or sing some funny crap over real songs. All the while dancing and goofing off to other drivers. A mobile comedy act.

reply to post by Ghost375


I drove from new jersey to California with the sounds of 2 women complaining a baby and my car falling apart. It was torture to say the least
Long live my radio!

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion

Originally posted by abeverage
I turned mine to Classical years ago because I was tired of outright stupid songs getting stuck in my head. I don't mind something I like stuck in there but ridiculous bands created from the music machine have been turned into earworms.

I get a similar response...UGH classical what are you a grandpa? UGH isn't there anything good on, UGH what kind of music is this???

Or wow what a delightful change from that crap...

Classical was my first stop before turning off too. My girlfriend made fun of me but still wound up enjoying it. But eventually the silence wound up being the most "enjoyable" state over the long run but when I do turn it back on for any amount of time Classical is my go to again.

Though I listened to more classical in high school than anything else so my perceptions there certainly have a bias, heh.

Reminds me of an old Depeche Mode song...Enjoy the Silience

reply to post by ErgoTheConclusion



Actually what you are describing, and what many of us here have noticed, has some basis in what has been observed in science. The more I thought about your experiment, and what so many of us have noticed for years got me thinking, "what makes some so uneasy in silence?", and I began to recall all the instances that I can't deny.

Well, I wondered what could be the effect of noise on the brain? Does extended periods of time exposed to noise cause the brain to behave differently? And the answer is yes and no, depending on the type of noise. This link here is about a study that confirms that background noise can affect one's concentration, and raises the stress levels in some. If you own a pet, you have probably observed how some animals can't stand to be around a lot of stimulation, while some don't care; the police must allow their service dogs and horses to acclimate to gunshots and large crowds. The same happens in humans.

The term is habituation, when one becomes accustomed to stimuli. However, certain types of stimuli we never habituate to, and that causes arousal, or also called activation. EEG scans can tell if one is aroused by noise, as well as pulse rate, or blood pressure. Repetition without variation leads to habituation, but in the case of many forms of music and television, there is no habituation; the brain never adapts. When this happens, the brain is left in a constant state of arousal. The link I posted above shows that this type of arousal could cause a decrease in dopamine levels.

Now what does dopamine do? It acts as a “reward” chemical, and when dopamine is released, it is in effect telling your brain to do it again. I cannot stress enough the difference between constant repetition and variation, at this point. Music, being cyclical in nature, can have the opposite effect, actually increase dopamine levels. But television is quite different. Television is a mixture of ups and downs, highs and lows, that will cause arousal, but then again, its supposed to! That's the issue – radio and television are supposed to get your attention, and it does quite well. These forms of media are designed to stimulate the brain and get you to look and listen. And just as the link showed, this will cause stress, and decreased dopamine levels, which can in turn relate to loss in concentration, focus, and attentiveness.

So on the one hand, you have music that can increase dopamine levels and become “addictive”, and on the other hand you have television and radio that assault one's ability to concentrate. Silence doesn't fit in there at all.

So what do we make of the “awareness” OP is talking about? The constant stimulation from these forms of media will distract either way: either you are listening to your music, fueling your addiction, or you are distracted by the advertisements and loud mouths of television and radio, a no-win situation. So I can imagine that you have the television on in the background, and the stimulation causes stress. Now what can I do to relieve stress? Ah yes, pop on the headphones. And once the headphones come off, the television takes back over, and we are at it again, kind of like the caffeine/sleeping pill cycle you can get into if you don't watch out!

Low concentration levels hinder ones ability to analyze and think clearly, and without such, one may not ask questions. So I would say there is a correlation, maybe not the correlation, but I am sure you are on to something.

reply to post by wjones837


Nicely put. To add to the concept of Noise, concerning the communication process: noise is anything literal or psychological that interferes with accurate reception of a message.

From- Human Communication as Action: Message Transfer

Without noise, all messages would be communicated with sublime accuracy. However noise is always present. For example, a car playing loud music outside your home is literal noise. We experience psychological noise when, for example, instead of paying attention at your business meeting, you are thinking about other things that you need to get accomplished before the days end.

Whichever kind it is, noise gets in the way of the message and may even distort it. Communicating accurate messages involves minimizing both external and psychological noise. While this sounds simple and straight forward, it has a key flaw: Human communication rarely, if ever, is as simple and efficient as “what we put in is what we get out.” Others cannot automatically know what you mean just because you think you know what you mean.

Of course there are other components to this model, such as: Source, Message, Channel, and Receiver.

Here is a visual of the process


The picture is from the 6th edition of Interpersonal Communication: Relating to Others. By S.A. Beebe, S.J. Beebe & M.V. Redmond. It was an interesting class I took a few years ago and I recommend it to all.

Just to add a great metaphor about communication by Virginia Satir, “Communication is to a relationship what breathing is to maintaining life.” This gem was on the other side of the page to the picture above.

I am back and forth between having it on for a few days then off for a few. I drive a lot for work so when it start to get like just noise I turn it off. I use to work in construction I found that painters and drywallers/tapers had to have the radio on the most. I think that most people are scared of their own thoughts. They don't want to think so they fill it with noise.