Simon Wiesenthal Center: Top 10 Anti-Semites, Israel-Haters for 2012

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

To understand Zionism and the reaction to it I think we need to look at a bit more history than just WWII. That alone is a foregone conclusion.

Agreed. As a political movement, Zionism arose in response to the systematic oppression of Jews in Central and Eastern Europe. In many places, Jews were not allowed to own land, and their persons subject to continual violence. Long before the Holocaust, Jews were massacred and their property destroyed by mobs whipped into a frenzy by lies and propaganda. The Holocaust was simply the last, most organized pogrom. Zionism was an attempt to create a homeland where the Jewish people could live freely, without persecution or fear of violence. With the establishment of the State of Israel, Zionism had accomplished its primary goal. In 1968, the 28th Zionist Congress adopted what they call the "Jerusalem Program:"

Unity of the Jewish People and the centrality of Israel in Jewish life
Ingathering of the Jewish People in its historic homeland, Eretz Israel, through Aliyah from all countries
Strengthening of the State of Israel, based on the prophetic vision of justice and peace
Preservation of the identity of the Jewish People through fostering of Jewish and Hebrew education, and of Jewish spiritual and cultural values
Protection of Jewish rights everywhere

en.wikipedia.org...

The influence of Zionism has been fading since the establishment of the State of Israel, and many of the points of the Jerusalem Program are politically controversial. Rather than use "Zionism" as a buzzword, please specify which aspects of it you find objectionable; this will lead to a more civilized discussion.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by ThinkingHuman

 

The influence of Zionism has been fading since the establishment of the State of Israel, and many of the points of the Jerusalem Program are politically controversial. Rather than use "Zionism" as a buzzword, please specify which aspects of it you find objectionable; this will lead to a more civilized discussion.

Of course you weren't addressing me, but when I first read about Zionism, it referred to having a place in the world for a Jewish cultural center. Nothing wrong with that at all. Now the word has changed to refer to an anti-Palestinian/anti-Muslim/anti-Arab political movement. Aligning itself with neo-conservative/militant-Christian/neo-colonialism policies, aspirations, and goals. My understanding of the change of the meaning of the word "Zionism" is a little late. Middle Eastern people were already well aware that the people in charge of the State of Israel were not advocating a non-aggressive reminder of Jewish culture, but rather a politically exclusive nightmare.

reply to post by DJW001

Agreed. As a political movement, Zionism arose in response to the systematic oppression of Jews in Central and Eastern Europe. In many places, Jews were not allowed to own land, and their persons subject to continual violence. Long before the Holocaust, Jews were massacred and their property destroyed by mobs whipped into a frenzy by lies and propaganda. The Holocaust was simply the last, most organized pogrom. Zionism was an attempt to create a homeland where the Jewish people could live freely, without persecution or fear of violence. With the establishment of the State of Israel, Zionism had accomplished its primary goal. In 1968, the 28th Zionist Congress adopted what they call the "Jerusalem Program:"

And what has all this got to do with the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, the violence mete out on the Palestinian people and the wholesale robbery of Palestine?

It is too bad Jews were discriminated against in Europe but to use it as a justification for a racist and colonialist ideology is complete hypocrisy.

Zionism is racist and a neocolonial enterprise. Zionists were Victorian era carpetbaggers traveling from one European imperial power to another begging for land in the colonialist occupied territories.

Before the "Jerusalem Programme" was the "British Uganda Programme". Zionists tried to hustle Uganda for themselves as an area classified by them as Terra nullius meaning a land without people.

Racist zionists did not regard the Ugandan people as human beings and tried to convince the British government to give them Uganda.

Where is Uganda? How about smack bang in the middle of Africa. A land without "people" for a people without a land.

reply to post by DoorKnobEddie

I think Jewish people deserve to have a land of their own...Most of them are hard working,good intentioned individuals like you and me,trying to make ends meet...The only way for them to live a happy,safe life is to get themselves rid of the Zionist regime that is causing them to be hated throughout the world...And this is of course not the first time they have been the victims of Zionism's endless greed...I always thought giving them a state in the US,or even Africa,would have been a perfect alternative to this uncertain,odd and shaky status quo in Israel....Sometime,somehow,somebody is got to do this for the love of innocent children on both sides.

reply to post by shapur


I don't think Africa deserves zionism, They have enough problems.

You can't go around giving zionists other people's lands. They will have to abandon their racist ideology.

reply to post by DoorKnobEddie


Calm down. You seem not to understand what I am attempting to do. It is clear that you have objections to some of the more radical policies of the Likkud government, as do I. You have failed to engage the point I have been trying to make: If people who reject the epithet of "Anti-Semitic"wish to substitute a more accurate, less inflammatory title, so be it. To retain objectivity, I submit that anti-Israel posters point to specific policies they object to without resorting to the term "Zionist," which is fraught with connotations of its own.

Originally posted by DJW001

Calm down.

I am with you DJW001 that we need to retain relative objectivity. But does not part of the responsibility for inflammatory language lie with the person who created and named this thread? Should not both sides of the ideological divide be subject to the same standard?

Does it not seem like the author of this thread is blowing out of proportion what outside the Middle East hardly seems to exist? Jews have many high positions in the US government, are frequently lawyers, doctors, educators, are known for their hard work, their family ties, their contributions to science, society, charities. If anybody wanted to discriminate against Jews, how could they possibly do so?

Basically, angry, emotional reactions from individuals with no power over government policies are being used to justify and perpetuate the image of Jews as the victim of some kind. There is probably hate against blacks, against Hindus, against any minority and every majority in every country on earth. Yet Jews have managed to create the image that they have a monopoly on victimhood. California has passed laws that make it illegal to criticise Israel foreign policy for being "covert anti-semitism" on college campus.

As shapur pointed out, I also used to "think Jewish people deserve to have a land of their own...Most of them are hard working,good intentioned individuals like you and me,trying to make ends meet". I still believe they are well intentioned, hard working people. But looking at history I wonder why they did not have "a land of their own" until 1900's? Why did Abraham have to leave Babylon? Why did Jews have to move to Egypt? Then back to Canaan? Then to many countries mostly in Europe (rather than power-sharing, integration, simply living peacefully next to each other like so many other ethnicities, migration to an unpopulated area, or immigration to ONE country that welcomes them?). History tells us that they were persecuted throughout the centuries they stayed in Europe. Why all of a sudden, more than a thousand years later, lay claim to Canaan again?

Do you believe any other group of people is equally entitled to come forward and lay claim to a land where they did not live for more than a thousand years? What gave Great Britain the right in 1917 to give Palestine to Israel? What gave the United Nations the right in 1948 to partition Palestine the way they did?

I am not debating the role of the Palestinians, or the Arab neighbors, or the jewish people, or anybody else. I am only addressing the actions of the governments. They simply do not make sense, if you take them at face value. There is something more to it that we are not being told about (I wonder why!). No other people in the world were given the gift of a country!

Before contemplating the policies of the Likkud government I would need to find a satisfactory answer to this dilemma.

Judaism is a religion not a nation nor a country.There is no such a thing as Judaia! as there is no Muslimia! or Christiania!....Jews never had enough people to make a country of their own...They always blended into different countries to survive,and they were doing not too bad until the Zionists decided to give them a fake land and made them hated by the locals and the surrounding Arab! nations...Right now there are almost six million Jews living in Israel and I am sure more than half of that population have double citizenship and are the big corporations and business owners of a bunch of western countries...And if they all chip in, they can provide a lot for the rest of them....The perpetual CURSE could be finally broken if they all decide to change,and the whole world could breath easier because of that.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

I am with you DJW001 that we need to retain relative objectivity. But does not part of the responsibility for inflammatory language lie with the person who created and named this thread? Should not both sides of the ideological divide be subject to the same standard?

We can both agree that the intent of this thread was inflammatory.

Does it not seem like the author of this thread is blowing out of proportion what outside the Middle East hardly seems to exist? Jews have many high positions in the US government, are frequently lawyers, doctors, educators, are known for their hard work, their family ties, their contributions to science, society, charities. If anybody wanted to discriminate against Jews, how could they possibly do so?

Read up on your history. Country clubs, universities and businesses frequently refused to admit Jews well into the Twentieth Century. The same was true of other ethnic groups, such as Blacks and Irish.

Basically, angry, emotional reactions from individuals with no power over government policies are being used to justify and perpetuate the image of Jews as the victim of some kind.

You have that exactly reversed. Angry people with no power over government invent conspiracy theories to explain their feeling of helplessness. Blaming it on the Jews, I mean, "Zionism," has always been popular.

There is probably hate against blacks, against Hindus, against any minority and every majority in every country on earth. Yet Jews have managed to create the image that they have a monopoly on victimhood.

There certainly is hatred towards many sorts of people. The Jews do not have a monopoly on victimhood. Just ask a Palestinian!

California has passed laws that make it illegal to criticise Israel foreign policy for being "covert anti-semitism" on college campus.

I would like to see the text of this alleged law.

But looking at history I wonder why they did not have "a land of their own" until 1900's?

Because Judaism is a religion, and religions are not tied to the land.

Why did Abraham have to leave Babylon? Why did Jews have to move to Egypt? Then back to Canaan?

These are cultural myths, not history. They were created to explain certain aspects of Jewish culture.

Then to many countries mostly in Europe (rather than power-sharing, integration, simply living peacefully next to each other like so many other ethnicities, migration to an unpopulated area, or immigration to ONE country that welcomes them?).

I'm sure that CorruptionExposed can explain to you that European Jews did not migrate from Canaan. They were not allowed to integrate peacefully into European society, much less share power! Their situation was not unlike that of the modern Romany people, who are welcome nowhere and blamed for crimes they do not commit.

History tells us that they were persecuted throughout the centuries they stayed in Europe. Why all of a sudden, more than a thousand years later, lay claim to Canaan again?

Because freedom from persecution and irrational hatred is a fundamental human right?

Do you believe any other group of people is equally entitled to come forward and lay claim to a land where they did not live for more than a thousand years?

Could you provide an example of such a group? Perhaps in a thousand years, we could ask that question about the people who currently call themselves "Palestinians"... if they have retained that self identification a thousand years from now.

What gave Great Britain the right in 1917 to give Palestine to Israel?

The same thing that gave the Ottoman Empire the right to administer the region before them, and the Arabian Empire the right to force its inhabitants to become Muslims before them.

What gave the United Nations the right in 1948 to partition Palestine the way they did?

The United Nations was founded to keep peace between the militarily and economically powerful nations. When the Soviet Union submitted the State of Israel for membership, it was not welcomed by many Western nations, including the United States. Ironically, they agreed to its legitimacy in order to "keep the peace!"

I am not debating the role of the Palestinians, or the Arab neighbors, or the jewish people, or anybody else. I am only addressing the actions of the governments. They simply do not make sense, if you take them at face value. There is something more to it that we are not being told about (I wonder why!). No other people in the world were given the gift of a country!

Before contemplating the policies of the Likkud government I would need to find a satisfactory answer to this dilemma.

It was hardly a "gift!"

reply to post by shapur

Judaism is a religion not a nation nor a country.There is no such a thing as Judaia! as there is no Muslimia! or Christiania!....

Historically, there was a Kingdom of Judea, although arguably the religion they practiced was radically different than modern Judaism.

Jews never had enough people to make a country of their own...

Residents of Andorra and Lichtenstein would find this statement extremely puzzling.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by DoorKnobEddie

 

Calm down. You seem not to understand what I am attempting to do. It is clear that you have objections to some of the more radical policies of the Likkud government, as do I. You have failed to engage the point I have been trying to make: If people who reject the epithet of "Anti-Semitic"wish to substitute a more accurate, less inflammatory title, so be it. To retain objectivity, I submit that anti-Israel posters point to specific policies they object to without resorting to the term "Zionist," which is fraught with connotations of its own.

It is quite clear what you are trying to do and you are not doing a very good job at it.

Zionism is an extremist political movement that hides behind Judaism to justify it's actions and forward it's agenda. Your thinly veiled attempts to label us as Jew haters who spew bigotry by using "code words" such as Zionist are quite obvious.

It is YOU who is not understanding the point.

Just in case you missed it in the OP...



Pointing out the problems of the Zionist element within Israel is not Anti-Semitism, and never will be no matter how much people such as yourself try to twist the facts. Logic will always prevail and your tactics will always fail.

Also, you may have missed this in the OP since you seem rather clueless and continue to repeat the same none sense over and over without actually admitting what your true intentions are.

reply to post by DJW001

We can both agree that the intent of this thread was inflammatory.

I can guarantee you that the intent of this thread was not inflammatory.

What was inflammatory were your attempts to derail this thread with off topic accusations.

You seem to be an advocate of censorship when it comes to certain issues and your agenda has been exposed and documented for future discussions.

See you around.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

I can guarantee you that the intent of this thread was not inflammatory.

I will take your word for that. It has proven to be inflammatory, despite your intentions.

What was inflammatory were your attempts to derail this thread with off topic accusations.

Such as? If anything, I am one of the few posters on this thread who has actually addressed the OP. You have ignored my discussion of Louis Farrakhan, for example. Do you not agree that the Wiesenthal Center's evaluation of him is justified?

You seem to be an advocate of censorship when it comes to certain issues and your agenda has been exposed and documented for future discussions.

Where, exactly, have I advocated censorship? I have explicitly stated my agenda to you: to prove that it is possible to discuss "Jewish Issues" on ATS without the Mods closing the thread for T&C violations. Thus far, it seems to be working. I am flattered that you will bolster my reputation in the future.

See you around.

I certainly hope so.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

It is quite clear what you are trying to do and you are not doing a very good job at it.

I could say the same about you.

Zionism is an extremist political movement that hides behind Judaism to justify it's actions and forward it's agenda. Your thinly veiled attempts to label us as Jew haters who spew bigotry by using "code words" such as Zionist are quite obvious.

Hang on! You have yet to provide any real sense of what you mean by "Zionism," other than it is extremist and somehow related to Judaism. I have quoted the explicitly stated goals of the official Zionist Congress and you have not bothered to discuss which of them you object to and why. Instead, you keep asserting that people who raise questions about your beliefs and intentions are somehow persecuting you or calling you names.

It is YOU who is not understanding the point.

Just in case you missed it in the OP...

Nice cartoon, but don't you think it's a bit aggressively defensive? Just as you accuse others of playing the "Anti-Semite card" to stifle discussion, you are using the "Zionist Propagandist card!"

Pointing out the problems of the Zionist element within Israel is not Anti-Semitism, and never will be no matter how much people such as yourself try to twist the facts. Logic will always prevail and your tactics will always fail.

Please indicate where I have identified pointing out the problems of the "Zionist element" with Anti-Semitism? In fact, I have made it clear that it is possible to criticize Israel and its policies objectively. On the other hand, people who simply hate Jews, for whatever reason, are prone to protest that it is "Zionism," not Jews, that they dislike.

Also, you may have missed this in the OP since you seem rather clueless and continue to repeat the same none sense over and over without actually admitting what your true intentions are.

As I said, it is you who are trying to persuade people that your critics are spewing blind prejudice and hatred. Rather than engage the actual content of your own OP, you have done nothing but hurl accusations against others. Thank you for exposing your own agenda.

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed


Zionism is an extremist political movement that hides behind Judaism to justify it's actions and forward it's agenda.

There are some that would disagree with you.

In recent years, commentators have argued that contemporary manifestations of anti-Zionism have become a cover for antisemitism, and that a "new antisemitism" rooted in anti-Zionism has emerged . Advocates of this concept argue that much of what purports to be criticism of Israel and Zionism is demonization, and has led to an international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols and an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse. Critics of the concept argue that the equation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism is used to stifle legitimate criticisms of Israel, and trivializes antisemitism.

Professor Kenneth L. Marcus, former staff director at the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, identifies four main views on the relationship between anti-Zionism and antisemitism, at least in North America

1 anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic in its essence and in most, if not all, of its manifestations
2 anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are both analytically and historically distinct, but the two ideologies have 3 merged since 1948;[18]
4 anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism remain distinct, but anti-Zionism occasionally crosses the line into "outright 5 5 anti-Semitism",[19] while anti-Semitism often pollutes anti-Zionist discourse;[20]:18 and/or
6 anti-Zionism is analytically distinct from anti-Semitism, but much apparent criticism of Israel or Zionism is in fact a thinly veiled expression of anti-Semitism.

Anti-Zionism

I wonder how many folks really have delved into the subject, and taken the time to actually see where they really stand. The perception might be taken another way, unfortunately.

reply to post by DJW001

Yes,but Andorra and Lichtenstein are two tiny states that a lot of people don't even know how to spell...With all do respects to dear Andorran and Lichtensteinese.

reply to post by sonnny1

There are some that would disagree with you.

Wikipedia disagrees with me

Now my day is ruined

By the way, you may have missed this part of your source that you provided:

This article may contain inappropriate or misinterpreted citations that do not verify the text. Please help improve this article by checking for inaccuracies. (help, talk, get involved!) (May 2011)

Originally posted by DJW001

California has passed laws that make it illegal to criticise Israel foreign policy for being "covert anti-semitism" on college campus.

I would like to see the text of this alleged law.

Here it is.
leginfo.legislature.ca.gov...
and a commentary from the Student Union
mondoweiss.net...

Read up on your history.

My grandfather was Jewish, so I can share some personal experience. He could not marry my Christian grandmother, not because of her family, but because it was not allowed in his culture. I came to find out that Jews were not integrated because they refused to be integrated, not because they were not allowed or welcome.

Nowadays we have come to recognize that when a massacre or a military event occurs that it may or may not be what the official story proclaims. When the Reichstag was burned it was not by some extremists or haters, it was the government itself. What I am suggesting to you is that much of the history you were taught may not be true. Governments have a vested interested in you believing a certain version of history. They get to investigate themselves, and to use Secret Services/CIA.

Let me ask you again my earlier question. Jews migrated (in ways that remain mysterious) to many countries in Europe. In every country they become victims of progroms, discrimination, and other mistreatment. Why? It does not make sense. Mistreatment in some places okay, in many is strange but in all is simply impossible. We are being brain-washed. We are supposed to believe, and I stress believe, that after many centuries of mistreatment all of a sudden they decide to go to a country they have never seen? A country they knew nothing about (they could not look it up online back then). Plus, Jews were powerful because they owned the banks.

Freedom from persecution is a human right, yes, but we are told that they lived without it for 1000 years, 40 or 50 generations. There is something else that is motivating Zionism. What could that be? Why would there be a mass movement to a place where they will be hated more than they ever were in Europe? (please read my signature, it does not quote conspiracy theorists)

See guys,we all have to learn to calm down and try to understand each other better...This thread is a smaller version of what's happening at the negotiation tables...Shouting the same thing over and over doesn't take us to anywhere...Almost everyone knows the facts,but the thing is,what to do with them now...And that is the hardest part of this age old conflict...I admire all you posters and specially the OP for the effort and hope people like you could make a difference someday,so there will be less sorrow and horror and more love and joy on this beautiful earth.There are enough lands for all of us,if we all be thankful and happy with what we have got,and try to help out one another..Life is too short to be wasted on nonsense....Cheers.