Did Muhammad ascend to heaven and descend, Messiah Jesus refutes this.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Here bro, chew on this. I'd like to stay but im gonna go hit some golf balls. Hopefully the legalists haven't decided that's a sin yet...

here.

I don't stay up to date on what the legalists teach. Maybe you should ask your pope. He might even be out there in his pope cart.

IF Muhammad ascended to heaven then descended, then perhaps he descended because he was kicked out.

Jesus, on the other hand, is still there.

My belief in God is a personal belief. Why do athiests insist that a believer should prove God exists? What business is it to an athiest what I believe or do not believe? Why should I have to prove what I believe in?

Athiests arguments do not hold water.
I can say I have never seen Europe so I have decided it doesn't really exist. One might say that all I have to do is go there and see for myself. Well, the same is true about believing in God.

Seek and ye shall find.
Knock and it will be opened.
Ask and ye shall receive.

No one is going to bring "proof" to your doorstep. You want proof, find it yourself.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Here bro, chew on this. I'd like to stay but im gonna go hit some golf balls. Hopefully the legalists haven't decided that's a sin yet...

here.

How'd the range go?

Its kinda nasty here but im going tomorrow...

Interesting link... but it seems they just beat up on Gnostic ideas, and actually prove nothing... aside from openingly admitting the passage doesn't appear in any of the earliest texts.

They beat up on Bruce Metzger a lot too... i thought you liked him?

Isn't he the guy in those "bible code" videos?

As for Tertullian, apparently he alludes to the passage but doesn't directly quote it... And im pretty sure the nail in the coffin is the fact that Jesus didn't say anything like it either...

Perhaps we should get back on topic?

Heres an interesting thought... something i was discussing with Mr jhill...

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Aren't all humans born of a woman and a man?

Thus we are all the "sons" and daughters of man... We all came from heaven, and we will all return...

That would include Mohammad...

What say you?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

So therefore, logically, 1 Father + 1 Son + 1 Holy Ghost will always equal 1 Echad.

I get what you're saying... unfortunatly that still equals three Gods acting as one as NuT said...

What are the parameters that define the number 1? Would you be willing to give it a try? Does it contain the same parameters as the number 2? The parameters of 1 then add another 1, which has the same parameters, then add another 1, which also has the same parameters means what? Within those parameters, nothing more is added and nothing is taken out, they are equal parameters. Would you not agree?

Why did you toss in the math equation then attempt to nullify it by saying you are not a fan of math? If you have been debunked, then don't deflect, it makes you intellectually dishonest.

And why the dislike for using Paul as a reference? This is ATS, I can use whatever source I wish for making my point, which apparently I did because you rejected it for no reason at all.

Jesus, speaking in John 17

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

John 12

44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

You might dislike John all you want, but these are the words of Christ.

Originally posted by Akragon
Thus we are all the "sons" and daughters of man... We all came from heaven, and we will all return...

That would include Mohammad...

What say you?

Pre-existence of the soul is a belief of some Muslims (note that it's "pre-existence", not "multiple lives", they don't believe in that).

The eights section is in regards to how Sadra reconciles his well-known principle “the soul is corporeal by its temporal origination (hudûth) and spiritual by its subsistence (baqâ’)” with the Shiite belief in the pre-existence of spirits to bodies – the belief, which is an indispensable element of the Imamite doctrine. First of all, it should be noted that, unlike some early Shiite traditionalists (e.g., Ibn Babuyeh), Sadra clearly differentiates between the terms “nafs” and “rûh“. So, in the “Asfâr” he often repeats that “nafs” (the soul) in the stricter sense of term, i.e., as long as it truly remains “nafs“, can only be spoken of as a temporally originated being, created together with (or rather as) the body, while “rûh” (the spirit), if understood as the principle of “nafs“, definitely enjoys a kind of pre-existence to the body. (Source)

reply to post by WarminIndy

What are the parameters that define the number 1? Would you be willing to give it a try? Does it contain the same parameters as the number 2? The parameters of 1 then add another 1, which has the same parameters, then add another 1, which also has the same parameters means what?

It means three...

111 = Three numerical figures

And Jesus never claimed to be equal to God...

Within those parameters, nothing more is added and nothing is taken out, they are equal parameters. Would you not agree?

See above...

And why the dislike for using Paul as a reference? This is ATS, I can use whatever source I wish for making my point, which apparently I did because you rejected it for no reason at all.

by the same rules i am free to reject whatever i wish... no?

You might dislike John all you want, but these are the words of Christ

I don't dislike John... i dislike Paul...

Regardless, this i can work with... Lets take a look at what Jesus says here

John 17...

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word;and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Who does he pray to here... himself, or his father?

In verse 14 does he say "i have given them OUR word"?

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Whos word is truth? Jesus spoke the words, but where did he get them?

Refer to John 15 for the answer...

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

This passage ruins the trinity arguement... Specifically stating others can be ONE with God as Jesus was... So we all get a part in this God thing... Fortunatly i do believe something similar... so lets move on...


John 12...

44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

Making himself less then God.... not equal too God...

45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Again... where did he get his words?

The basis is love... and people will be judged by the love they've shown in life... or lack there of

49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Exactly.... What HE said came from his Father.... Not from him... So again, one can see Jesus was not equal, or anything close to equal to God, and definately NOT God in the flesh... yet still divine in his own right

50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

And the commandment was of course... LOVE

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
Thus we are all the "sons" and daughters of man... We all came from heaven, and we will all return...

That would include Mohammad...

What say you?

Pre-existence of the soul is a belief of some Muslims (note that it's "pre-existence", not "multiple lives", they don't believe in that).

The eights section is in regards to how Sadra reconciles his well-known principle “the soul is corporeal by its temporal origination (hudûth) and spiritual by its subsistence (baqâ’)” with the Shiite belief in the pre-existence of spirits to bodies – the belief, which is an indispensable element of the Imamite doctrine. First of all, it should be noted that, unlike some early Shiite traditionalists (e.g., Ibn Babuyeh), Sadra clearly differentiates between the terms “nafs” and “rûh“. So, in the “Asfâr” he often repeats that “nafs” (the soul) in the stricter sense of term, i.e., as long as it truly remains “nafs“, can only be spoken of as a temporally originated being, created together with (or rather as) the body, while “rûh” (the spirit), if understood as the principle of “nafs“, definitely enjoys a kind of pre-existence to the body. (Source)

edit on 20-9-2012 by adjensen because: tag repair

Its also a belief held by some Christians... and Most Hindu... and some so called Athiests... and Most Buddhists....

etc...

etc...

What would you say to this passage?

4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Taken out of context i suppose?

reply to post by Akragon


Such a long quote so I will simply reply in this manner.

Jesus also affirmed His deity to the disciples. "'If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.'" (John 14:7-11, 20).

How long had Phillip been a disciple and still had to ask the question, show us the Father? Jesus says here, believe me Phillip because you have seen the Father in me.

John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

When Jesus references Isaiah, it pretty well indicates what He was saying.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon


What would you say to this passage?

4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Taken out of context i suppose?

edit on 20-9-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Because God is omniscient.

reply to post by WarminIndy

How long had Phillip been a disciple and still had to ask the question, show us the Father? Jesus says here, believe me Phillip because you have seen the Father in me.

Did you notice he did not say " Phillip... I AM the Father?"

Keep reading that chapter... Further down you'll find this...

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Not equal, but greater then HE... The trinity equates Jesus with the Father, and they are not equal...

"I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Again... keep reading....

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Son of God... Not God in the flesh... He did claim to be the son of God.... of that there is no doubt, but he didn't ever claim to be God... And before you quote the usual I AM quote... Before abraham was I AM meaning he existed before abraham... as did all souls, we just have it hidden from us...

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

HE was called a lot of things... it doesn't make the labels true...

Was he not called a glutten and a drunkard?

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

IF he spoke words directly from God, and said specifically "his words are what give life"... i don't see a problem with the name God with us... God IS with us always, and he gave evidence of that fact... It doesn't make him God in the flesh, but a man who remembered being with God... had instructions from God directly... As he said, God is in him... They are one... meaning one mind, but still seperate entities

HE was sent by God...

When Jesus references Isaiah, it pretty well indicates what He was saying.

Not really... Though again he did indicate he was the son of God...

Because God is omniscient

Its still an obvious indication of the pre-existance of the soul...

Originally posted by Akragon
What would you say to this passage?

4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Taken out of context i suppose?

Of course not -- God exists outside of time, so he knows everything that ever has happened and ever will happen. He knows Saturday's Powerball winning numbers, he just won't tell me, darn it. I do not currently have a grandchild, but if I am so blessed someday, God already knows, today, everything about their birth, their life, their death, and every little detail.

One needs to bear in mind this "existing outside of reality" bit when reading scripture, and instances like this become fairly well clear.

reply to post by adjensen


According to the Bible, where God lives time exists. It's just a different perspective, "a day is 1000 years" is still a time frame. "Nobody knows the hour....but God."

However when we talk of time, we must also talk of space and matter, the physical universe. Spirit isn't bound by physical laws, but is an observer of the physical universe. We are all spiritual beings observing the physical universe, from a human experience. When we shed these bodies, we are again unbound by the physical.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

According to the Bible, where God lives time exists. It's just a different perspective, "a day is 1000 years" is still a time frame. "Nobody knows the hour....but God."

I think that's a way that some tried to wrap their head around eternity, the state of being outside of time. It's a really hard concept to grasp, but scripture is pretty clear that God is eternal, without beginning or end.

However when we talk of time, we must also talk of space and matter, the physical universe. Spirit isn't bound by physical laws, but is an observer of the physical universe. We are all spiritual beings observing the physical universe, from a human experience. When we shed these bodies, we are again unbound by the physical.

I don't know that I'd disagree with that.

reply to post by adjensen


It's not hard to grasp with a background in Physics. Einstein discovered that time is a physical property. Just like length, width, and height. God exists outside of the dimensionality of time, He created it. So saying eternity is "lots and lots of time" make for good poetry, but it's terrible Physics.

reply to post by windword


Actually in Isaiah it says God "inhabiteth eternity". He is eternal, His existence is outside time altogether. That's how He alone can see the end from the beginning, and in fact uses that attribute to authenticate His messages to us in the form of detail-specific prophecies.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by adjensen

 

It's not hard to grasp with a background in Physics.

True, but there weren't a lot of physicists in the First Century

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by adjensen

 

It's not hard to grasp with a background in Physics.

True, but there weren't a lot of physicists in the First Century

I didn't imply that friend. I'm saying it's not that hard to grasp today, post Einstein's GRT 1916.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I didn't imply that friend. I'm saying it's not that hard to grasp today, post Einstein's GRT 1916.

I know, I was just funning. Though, even with what I know of physics (actually, probably because of what I know of physics, lol,) I have a tough time wrapping my head around the concept of being outside of time. Outside of our time, sure, that's pretty easy, but outside of time? I toss that into the "incomprehensible nature of God", at least as regards me.

reply to post by adjensen


I don't really struggle with it, since it's physical in nature it had to be created, thus the Creator must exist outside of it, and prior to it.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by adjensen

 

I don't really struggle with it, since it's physical in nature it had to be created, thus the Creator must exist outside of it, and prior to it.

No, it isn't the fact of it that I can't sort out, but the nature of it.

But, as you say, no sense to struggle with it.