Arizona pastor jailed for home bible study

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Apparently praying is hate.

peacefully assembling is hate.

Defending people who want to peacefully assemble is hate.

Enthusiasm for government stepping in to deny people the right to peacefully assemble is. . . . er. . . . ummm. . . . . . . . .

reply to post by beezzer

The media just isn't portraying this one right. Not now anyway. The stories were against the guy until recently which is what has me confused about this near tsunami of Pro- coverage on him all the sudden.

A bible study group is fine.... So is a casual poker club or a garage sale a few times a year. However, he's got concrete and paved parking, take your pick or perhaps parking is assigned by tithe amount, which he collects..

The money doesn't really matter though because anywhere else, this would be absolutely no one else's business. However, he bum rushed a private neighborhood and his FIRST plan was a full blown, outright Church of over 4,000sq feet. The Chapel building he constructed isn't small itself, if that isn't just a variation on the original building from 2008 plans. It's BIG by the Google overhead and compared to the van parked next to the corner of it,

This is a neighborhood that he's been pissing off with 80 people coming in at least twice a week, like clockwork for a long time now. Would you want to buy a house within a block of him? I sure wouldn't...and there is the violation of other people's rights. His Church traffic hit his neighbors property values and ability to enjoy their quality of life. It's a bad scene and doom on the media for how they've SUDDENLY 'Found Religion'. They found a story to chomp into for a slow news cycle...waiting for things to get real busy here soon.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000
The sad part is, that if someone upsets you, you can find a law, some law, ANY law that can be used against him.
Having a church in the neighborhood isn't a bad thing. Yet people bemoan the fact that this guy was practising a religion while ignoring OBVIOUS dangers like homes that deal drugs, homes that produce meth, homes that are an actual danger to the rest of the neighborhood.

There is a heirarchy in any religious organisation. If you're that steamed about the how and the where and the why then the neighbors should have gone over the guys head.

But using the law like this is wrong, especially when it is so unevenly applied.

reply to post by beezzer

I don't understand your position.. The guy is a crook and a conman with a violent history starting in the 90's and a civil history just packed full right into 2011. As noted in another post, I'd avoid mentioning the past of a Christian who may have converted and come to Faith out of a bad life...but he seems to be using Faith while IN a bad life by the simple records and history that follow him.

That site I listed got to official Arizona state websites for the actual online records to back points, where available. It also has the records of the law suits he's initiated and had initiated against him. This guy knows the system as well as some attorneys by the looks of things and how I've read the stories on him over the years.

I'm certainly not saying this wouldn't be a case to be upset about, if all was at it appeared. It simply isn't, that's all.... The guy's a menace and a terror to his neighborhood as his neighbors seem happy to share anywhere they can.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000
I'll read up more on the guy then before posting anymore.

Fair enough?

reply to post by beezzer

Fair enough.

I'll be surprised if you don't come back more than a little pissed over how blatant ALL the media is about the spin on this story. The folks I find myself in agreement with on this thread...should say a lot. Principle does make for odd allies at times.

No offense to anyone, of course.

Has this guy set up a "legal fund" paypal donation site yet?

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

This is a neighborhood that he's been pissing off with 80 people coming in at least twice a week, like clockwork for a long time now. Would you want to buy a house within a block of him? I sure wouldn't...and there is the violation of other people's rights.

YES - - I was a "victim" of a neighborhood report. In my case it was one crazy neighbor.

Some cities take this stuff very seriously. Disrupting your neighborhood is a serious matter.

As the police investigators told me - - - laws are on the books to follow up complaints. Mostly neighbors get along or settle minor disputes themselves. Most of the time there is no need or reason for law enforcement to get involved.

Anyway - - my neighbor reported excessive noise. The investigators came out and placed sound recorders at the perimeter of my property to record if we were in violation of the noise ordinance. I completely cooperated with them - - doing my normal routine - - watching TV at my regular level - etc. The results were I was in compliance. They filed their report and notified the neighbor.

After that I reported cracks and raised cement in the sidewalk in front of their house. Told the person who was taking my report that my child was skating and tripped over the raised sidewalk - - which could have resulted in serious injury. Fact is - - I knew they were growing stuff in their greenhouse that was not legal.

They got the message - - - got a bill from the city for sidewalk repair - - - and never bothered me again.

Jesus God.... what's next?

Seriously- pretty soon you won't be able to hold a family reunion or have friends over for a BBQ?? Good grief... what if you wanted to host a bridal shower or baby shower at your place?

Who cares if someone wants to have a bible study in the privacy of their own home... I don't. This will spill over on to other things

* 80 ppl a week is a bit much, but still I support a persons right to have peaceful gatherings on their property.

reply to post by beezzer


None of what you said is at all relevant to the topic at hand. The fact that this man was "praying" has nothing to do with the fact that he got arrested for violating nearly 100 city codes. Don't like them? Tough. I hope you live somewhere without them, so that you don't have to cry.

Honestly, how is it that if a city council asks you to put a fire extinguisher in your building, that they're stomping all over your freedoms? Buy the extinguisher and go on being free. Unless your idea of freedom and liberty are to do whatever you want when you want with no regard to anyone else. Those ideas are flawed -- why? Because of perversion. Here are several examples of said perversion.

"My idea of freedom is to be able to shoot Muslims in the name of Jesus Christ, and if I'm met with any opposition by the government, then they're just trying to take away my freedom."

"My idea of liberty is to be able to take others' cattle and sell it as my own. If I'm met with any opposition by the government, then they're just trying to take away my freedom."

"I tried to open a restaurant in my backyard. The government stepped in and said, 'Since you're taking money from people, you need to follow certain guidelines that ensure safety for every patron you take in.' That pissed me off because I live in America where I can do whatever I want. It's in the Constitution, isn't it? 'All Americans can do whatever they want in the name of freedom and liberty.' You can't find it? Oh well, I know it's there."

"My idea of freedom is opening a working church in my backyard. I have applied for tax exemption from IRS, and have even registered this church under a specific name. It is definitely a legitimate church. What? The city I live in has rules for that? Who cares, I'm in America. I can do whatever I want, when I want, because I live in the home of the free. Oh, those rules are there because I have a responsibility to keep these people safe? Who cares, I'm in America. I can do whatever I want, when I want, blah blah blah."

You get the picture. You can't go around doing whatever you want, when you want, because that isn't freedom. You have a responsibility as the owner of a church, a restaurant, a shopping mall, a pet shop, or even a mosque, to follow certain laws. You have a responsibility as an American citizen to abide by the law.

Whoever told their children that "daddy went to jail for praying" is just as delusional as you are. The man opened a church on his property, complete with pews, a podium, a parking lot, and a tithe, then when the city tried to have him follow the law, he cried "religious persecution". Seriously? You're defending him solely because of his religion? That's what this criminal wants.

City codes are not in place to create loopholes for taking out Christianity -- why? Because the way to circumvent those loopholes is to ABIDE BY THE LAW. Why can't you abide by the law just because you don't want to? If you can't abide by the law, you either need to go to jail, change the laws, or move to some other country.

Here's the deal, beez. If this thread was about a man who opened a laser tag arena in his backyard, breaking city codes specifically related to fires, etc., and then there was a fire, killing 20 people, what would your stance be, then? Would you try to say "daddy went to jail because he wanted to shoot laser guns", or would you say "daddy went to jail because his irresponsibility killed people"?

In all honesty, I think that the majority of your posts are just made to spark arguments from anyone with logic. I agree with some things you say, but again, you seem to take every issue and turn it into a left vs. right matter, and it's simply not. I'm not going to pretend I know everything about laws, or city codes, especially ones in Phoenix. But I'm also not going to pretend that none of them matter because I'm an American.

reply to post by beezzer


Really? You know this guy's neighbors?

So it's his neighbors, whom you know, whom hate this man for believing in Christ, whom made him break laws. Interesting. How'd they do this? Did they hold him at gunpoint for five years, forcing him to not comply with police? Did they create fire hazards and violate 96 city codes?

Oh, that's right... He did all of that. Or is it only breaking the law when someone you disagree with does it? Interesting stance on this, beezzer.

reply to post by jensouth31


No, it was ~80 people two times a week, meeting in a separate building from his house, that he built as a church, filled with pews, a podium, and more, which he also used to apply for tax exemption, while also applying a tithe. The real heart of this issue is that a man built a building that broke laws. He disrupted his neighbors enough to have the police contact him. After five years of noncompliance, they eventually arrested him for knowingly breaking 96 city codes. Why do I say knowingly? He was told about them multiple times throughout the five years of undertaking this project. He knew what was wrong, and how to fix it. He chose not to.

Now you have to ask yourself why. Why would this man choose not to fix his building to be at peace with the city? Why would he refuse to resolve any issue for half a decade?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
There should be a protest about this kind of violation of civil liberties.

Agreed! S&F

Wish more stuff like this would get out. maybe, just maybe, people will get so pissed that they will do something to stop this in their respected states.

Sadly... it'll get worse... Which is good, right? For believers...

Well I have to admit that is a bit exsessive, also the title of this thread is misleading It's not a mere bible study, the guy is holding full blown church services. That is a different story all together.

Carry on....

Originally posted by jensouth31
Well I have to admit that is a bit exsessive, also the title of this thread is misleading

It's not a mere bible study, the guy is holding full blown church services. That is a different story all together.

Carry on....

Yeah.

People really need to read the full facts on this.

reply to post by Annee


Sok annie dearest.. I consider your childlike mentality just as insulting.

Grow up for the want of rights to believe and practice your beliefs? How is that affecting you in any way shape or form? Whats the purpose of this "law" if not to persicute the christian, just as you so lovingly do on this site.

I read the whole post... I know what it's about... You assume, so you're as ignorant as you claim we are...

The point I made is simple. Doesnt matter if he had 10000 million pews in his "home" or if he dug 3000 feet underground to build an underground bunker church under the damned state capital. It's his GOD GIVEN RIGHT... Just as it's his CONSTITUTION GIVEN RIGHT.


miss... holier than thou...

Originally posted by article
reply to post by Annee

 

Sok annie dearest.. I consider your childlike mentality just as insulting.

Read the damn facts.

Alright. After doing some more reading, it appears that I was wrong in my initial post.

There's also the timeline, which indicates that Mr. Salman had been a thorn in the city's side for quite some time:

Mr. Salman's interaction regarding his property dates back to 2006, when he was advised by the Zoning Administrator that his property was analogous to a church and required compliance with the Zoning Ordinance.
In other words, he's had six years to either get his building up to code or stop holding services. Far from persecution, this is nothing short of favoritism. Had a regular old restaurant -- or heaven forbid, a Planned Parenthood office -- been in violation of fire safety standards, they'd have been shut down within weeks. Count on it.

In the Fall of 2007, Mr. Salman is notified several times by the City that he needs to obtain the proper permits and approvals before holding church services on his property.
So he had one year's notification of zoning ordinances before holding services, and then he ignores the city's call for proper permitting.

In 2008, Mr. Salman's church, Harvest Christian Fellowship Community Church, is issued a Building Permit to construct a 2,000 square foot private game room accessory to an existing single family residence. The permit states, "Any other occupancy or use (business, commercial, assembly, church, etc.) is expressly prohibited pursuant to the City of Phoenix Building Code and Zoning Ordinances."
So let's make sure we're clear. Mr. Salman knew he was breaking the law and did it anyway. He is a willful lawbreaker for Jesus. All along, he knew he was building a church, but he lied to the city and told them he was building a game room. He lied because he knew he was doing something illegal.

On January 4, 2010, Harvest Christian Fellowship Community Church is found responsible for 96 civil code violations. The Court notes, "[T]he State is not saying the Salmans can't run a church or have worship services at the location, but the State is saying that if they do so, they must do it properly and in accord with the building, fire, and zoning codes."
Four years after being notified that what he was doing was illegal, two years after he lied to the city, the city finds 96 civil code violations. The city explicitly says he's perfectly within his rights to have church services if only he'll go through the proper channels and get the proper permits. The city is practically begging him to just play by the rules so they don't have to bother with him anymore.

On August 30, 2010, Mr. Salman was found guilty of 67 Class 1 Misdemeanors. The Court stated, "Everyone is entitled under the United States Constitution to worship as they please. But there is a reason for these codes and that is for public safety. And that, I believe, is all that the State is asking is that the Code violations be rectified."
Instead of admitting his mistakes and getting his garage up to code, he continued to hold services, and the city charged him for it. After years of pleading with him, giving him every benefit of the doubt, and allowing him to hold services in an unsafe building -- risking serious civil lawsuits if anyone had gotten hurt -- the city decided he had no intention of obeying the law.

Ms. Sundblad and others are using inflammatory language they got from FOX, like "raid." They're pointing out that this all went down right after Independence Day. But it wasn't a raid. It was a six year investigation. And it had to be sometime. There are "American" holidays all during the year. It had to be near one of them. This is not, in any sense, a matter of free speech. When Mr. Salman gets out of jail, all he's got to do is get the proper permits, and bring his garage up to code, and he can go right back to annoying his neighbors with all the traffic congestion.

www.examiner.com...
phoenix.gov...

I stand corrected.

beez

reply to post by Annee

After that I reported cracks and raised cement in the sidewalk in front of their house. Told the person who was taking my report that my child was skating and tripped over the raised sidewalk - - which could have resulted in serious injury. Fact is - - I knew they were growing stuff in their greenhouse that was not legal.

So really thats a little underhanded and vindictive. Why not just tell the law about the illegal going's on in the greenhouse instead of trying to heal your wounded pride. 2 wrongs do not make a right. Glad your not my neighbor.

On topic, the so called pastor broke building codes . Seems fair that he goes to jail for breaking the law. Everyone has has to pay the price for non compliance.