Toxic legacy of US assault on Fallujah 'worse than Hiroshima'

reply to post by usmc0311


Just to clarify something-I do not blame you or the US marines/army.
I blame the government,not the people-and especially not the brave folks who served thinking they were helping both Iraq and their home country.

I have read how you have been affected by your time in Iraq in other posts and your views on the war,and I have nothing but respect for you usmc0311.

Being used by bad people does not make you a bad person.

reply to post by Danbones


Yep this conversation is about the Gulf of Tonkin as well.

Almost forgot about that important part of this thread

I've posted WHO factsheets about what DU does and how it works.

Secondly that article you keep using, the one I quoted above, is wrong on how DU penetrates armor as well. It doesn't use ionizing radiation, it uses high velocity discharge with a DU spike. It's the density of the metal, not the alpha particle release that is useful for armor penetration.

This whole thread is full of so much BS.

yeah the good ol US brings democracy everywhere
soon it will be at your door

PRESENTATION TO THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT (23 June 2005)

Keith Baverstock PhD; Department of Environmental Sciences, University of Kuopio, KUOPIO, Finland

Thus, detailed examination of DUO reveals three potential risk routes in addition to the conventional radiotoxicity caused by direct irradiation, namely, chemical genotoxicity, synergy between radiation and chemical toxicities and a bystander route.

Since 2002 the evidence for these three routes has not diminished, indeed the reverse is the case. More recent studies have confirmed the earlier studies 9, 10 and concern about the bystander effect in radiotherapy patients continues to rise.

Furthermore, US veterans with DU embedded in their bodies as a result of friendly fire incidents and with high concentrations of DU in their urine, show further evidence of DU's mutagenic potential in their peripheral blood cells 11.

www.grassrootspeace.org...
Vixen you are mixing quotes to avoid the facts.
the US had DU banned to use only as a last resort in the 50s because they knew what it would do then.

they hate the troops so they told them it was safe now

I just don't get it. The article itself says that there are no conclusive facts on what is causing these deformations. That DU cannot be definitively pointed to as the culprit, and that further study is needed. But somehow this dubious article and the incomplete research it is based on is somehow gospel now.

It's amazing what people take as fact around here.

you used the propaganda
here is your propaganda

right from the horse's mouth

US Army's Expert on Depleted Uranium (DU) :
Nuclear Holocaust and The Politics of Radiation
Dr. Doug Rokke Speaking in Los Altos, CA 21apr03

I got a letter in the memorandum I came from Los Alamos. The famous Los Alamos memorandum. And in this memorandum it was very very clear "Thou shalt right you're after-action report such that they do not reveal the health and environmental consequence of uranium munitions because they will become politically unacceptable." [That's] a direct order.

I'll be dammed if I'll lie for the military.

Then, I got another direct order...

www.mindfully.org...

propaganda?
where do you fit into the op?

Look.

Rather than just debating over what a newspaper or journalist might have said about a certain report, take a look yourselves as I posted earlier.

Here www.mdpi.com...

And here www.mdpi.com...

This will give you a much better basis to judge what is actually going on in Fallujah rather than relying on journalists who are not experts, in anything.

reply to post by projectvxn


You know what, I don't really care whether its DU, or something else, because this;

Researchers found a 38-fold increase in leukaemia, a ten-fold increase in female breast cancer and significant increases in lymphoma and brain tumours in adults. At Hiroshima survivors showed a 17-fold increase in leukaemia, but in Fallujah Dr Busby says what is striking is not only the greater prevalence of cancer but the speed with which it was affecting people.

Is abnormal, and frankly, it looks like "we" caused it.

We can petty bicker about munitions, but I don't think the people there really give a damn about that, and frankly theres nothing we can do about it now, because we've done the damage already.

US forces later admitted that they had employed white phosphorus as well as other munitions.

Its Agent Orange in Vietnam all over again.

What we can do, is make damn sure that a BS excuse for a war isn't ever used again, and that people are a damn site more accountable.

And we can hope that someone doesn't try and fly an airliner into a building - or a damn site worse - because of what "we" did there.

Lets be real nobody can argue that DU is actually good for humans.


Unnerving how viciously someone will defend it, whom is completely on the lowest tier of govt jobs.

Yes more DU since it causes no harm, we shall feed it to children. Hell it oughta come in a cereal box with a prize, of a roided up action figure with a gun in one hand and flag in the other.

You should buy stocks in it.

With such blind faith in it ya know.

They use to tell you cigarettes were healthy for you and more doctors recommend brand x than y.

Alright, now that I hae some time I will tell you all some first hand accounts. I arrived in the Fallujah Iraq area in the Al Anbar Province in September of 2004. While their our FOB (forward operations base) was Camp Bahria which was located between Camp Fallujah and the city itself. At the time Fallujah was jihad central. You could not get within 1000 meters of the cities edge without being ambushed. The insurgents had just spent the last six months fortifying the city in preparation for the battle they knew was coming. The city was also being used as a base for indirect fire operations against us troops. I believe in the two months leading up to the battle our camp was recieving up to 70-80 indirect fire rounds per day. That made life on camp miserable when we were there.

Now, every person in that city knew what was coming and had time to leave. There were pamphlets dropped all oer the city as welll as psyops vehicles blaring messages from the outskirts at night. We watched for two weeks as civilians fled the city During this time many rounds of White Phosphorus and Red Phosphorus were dropped on the city burning alot of stuff and people up. I have some pics I will try to upload some pics later but I can't help but wonder what the after effets may have been. During the battle, tanks were used heavily and whenever possible to minimize our casulties.

The tanks were using DU rounds and many troops were exposed to the after effects because of this. I see no reason why DU rounds were even nessasary. After the invasion was over and the threat of armor attacks was over DU ammo should have been taken offline. No structure in that city required DU to destroy. And that is a fact. The battle destroyed much of the infrastructure causing sewers to flood and conditions to become absolutely horrible. Why anyone ever returned to the city is beyond my understanding. DU is just one of many things that are causing the health effects we are seeing in the population now.

One more thing I can tell you is this. Most of the fighters that were killed in that city were not Iraqi regulars. I'm not sure if that statistic is recorded anywhere but from my experience we came across more people from Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and even Iran. I never hear this fact discussed and it's probably something they want kept quiet. Also, to answer you Nef, Fallujah was a free-fire zone during the battle.

Now, knowing what I know now I can't help but to feel horrible for the people of Iraq and the horrors they now face because of us. Many of us troops are sick as well. I myself have many issues but it's nothing compared to some of the Iraqis. Not a day goes by that I don't think about the families I bonded with and came to know and just how their lives may be today. I can only hope they are doing well even though that is probably not the case.

In closing. Operation Phantom Fury was a dirty nasty battle and many of the truths will stay hidden unless people demand the truth. It was a good example of how destructive war is and how it has long term negative effects on both sides. I will forever be scarred from my experiences and will probably never fully repair the damage that has been done.

I will pop in from time to time today so if anyone has any questions feel free to ask. I will answer anything to the best of my knowledge. I will not lie. I know there is much more I can tell you so ask away.

reply to post by usmc0311


Harrowing account of actual action, I'm glad you made it through it all.
Again excellent post.

reply to post by usmc0311


What you are talking of is the Second Battle of Fallujah? The first one took place in April 2004.

Now, every person in that city knew what was coming and had time to leave. There were pamphlets dropped all oer the city as welll as psyops vehicles blaring messages from the outskirts at night.

Whatever the warnings not every Iraqi civilian made it out. Many either thought # off to the coalition forces get the # out of my country or could not make it out. The Red Cross estimated 800 Iraqi civilians died in the operation.

www.democracynow.org...

The attack was in the realms of a war crime. The indiscriminate use of White Phosphorous and other weapons without due care to the civilian population certainly puts it in this category.

Do you feel/think from your own experiences and evidence available that you took part in a war crime?

reply to post by neformore
This is... disturbing.

The military will tell you that DU rounds are necessary, and that they are not particularly harmful, but in a conflict where inflicting "collateral damage" was a big no-no, it appears that "legacy damage" is now a huge issue.

Nothing wrong with DU rounds "IF" you dont touch them, dont touch the ground they are in, dont breath the air after a rain, , dont breath the air during a sand storm,

Leuk [white blood cell] emia [without]

how many times have we heard of soldiers doing multi tours and come home to die a year later from Blood cancers...war is messed up

so do we design a war method to only kill soldiers?

Leaders of countries must bear the responsibility of war.

It appears that Leaders are negligent to the decisions of war.

When is the last time a United States Leader fell on his sword with consideration to putting Americans and the enemies of US in harms way?

I venture to say maybe Truman? The decision to Bomb Japan and the aftermath was more his body could take.

where do we take this debate. It is a dilemma

And was some of this born out of recklness?

No I dont think so, they hadnt used DU rounds before Iraq #1 had they?
But it does produce a large bang for the buck.

I think maybe George Bush 43 needs to go over and pick up every round himself...bare handed and experience the effects of Leukemia FIRST HAND,,,after all, why ask someone else to do or go where you will not?

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
reply to post by usmc0311

 

What you are talking of is the Second Battle of Fallujah? The first one took place in April 2004.

Now, every person in that city knew what was coming and had time to leave. There were pamphlets dropped all oer the city as welll as psyops vehicles blaring messages from the outskirts at night.

Whatever the warnings not every Iraqi civilian made it out. Many either thought # off to the coalition forces get the # out of my country or could not make it out. The Red Cross estimated 800 Iraqi civilians died in the operation.

www.democracynow.org...

The attack was in the realms of a war crime. The indiscriminate use of White Phosphorous and other weapons without due care to the civilian population certainly puts it in this category.

Do you feel/think from your own experiences and evidence available that you took part in a war crime?

edit on 27-5-2012 by Peruvianmonk because: Spelling

Yes, but the April operation ended abruptly for political reasons. Your certainly right that every civilian did not get out as I saw firsthand but many who stayed were helping the insurgents as well. Not all but some. I definitely do not feel that our cause was just but at the time we were facing an enemy that was hell bent on killing us. We were ordered to be there and we did what we felt was nesassary for our survival. Given what I know now the whole war was a warcrime so you can take what you want from that.

Fallujah was under the control of MeK. And the strange thing about MeK they sent all there children to live in Paris France away from the war.They then forced all married couples to divorce and forced all men and women to live seperatly. And all men and women were given weapons and trained on how to fight. MeK also carried out the attacks on the Kurds for Saddam using chemical weapons. MeK was also killed the Balck Water contractors dragged them through the streets set the bodies on fire and hung them from a bridge. The US fought MeK to take control of Fallujah. And after the MeK were captured Donald Rumsfeld said give them there weapons back and leeave MeK alone. Then Fallujah was taken back from US control and the war began again for Fallujah. After taking Fallujah a second time the generals on the ground took all of MeKs weapons and told Donald Rumsfeld to go to hell when he said give them back there weapons again. When MeK was held for some time at a camp. Donald Rumsfeld gave them a UN noncobatant innocent civilian standing even though they were known terrorist and on the terrorist list with the US for attacks in New York and on American soldiers around the world even befor the Iraq invasion. The MeK children who were sent off to Paris France to live are now grown up and are true propaganda agents for MeK. And are trying to get them taken off the terrorist list. Mitt Romneys advisor flew to Paris to sit in on the meetings to get MeK taken off the list along with many other people like Rudy Giuliani. They are now being investigated for giving material support to terrorist. And they just laugh about it.

Romney Advisor Mitchell Reiss Backs ‘Terrorist’ Group, Jokes About Being ‘Potential Criminal’
tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...

reply to post by neformore


Perhaps you should do your homework.

Iraq is litered with enough Radiation to equal 200,000 Hiroshima bombs and it didnt come from us.

Oh , and DU rounds arent Harmful unless they are pointed at you.

reply to post by neformore


It is really sad and hypocritical that a nation as powerful as the US feels the need to use such devastating weapons. Really I this should be judged a war crime and those responsible held to account. But that will not happen for a while yet. The US still holds the biggest stick.

reply to post by projectvxn


So WHO is the definitive answer for us all? No conflict of interest there I guess, because liability is a scary thing.
Are you saying that any of your brothers in arms that claim gulf sickness or anything to do with DU is hype and they should quit the fear mongering?

My understanding(limited yes) and please correct me, is that the Du weapons were used against tanks and heavy armory, but the shrapnel and shell cases left laying around contain measurable DU. Is this true at all? I am asking because I don't know, not to be a wise guy. But to hear that the DU issue is mostly hype and everyone should quit talking about it because WHO has done the testing and provided nothing but truth just does not settle well with me.
I could be wrong, and I mean no disrespect, but it seems numerous service people would disagree with you, including some here on our boards.

ETA: Some additional info on the subject of DU:
www.veteranstoday.com...
www.ccnr.org...


reply to post by usmc0311

I see no reason why DU rounds were even nessasary.

My understanding is that because of the excessive inventory of shells and the cost of storing them was the reason they decided to utilize them.

DU, according to most scholars, has been stored in stockpiles since the 1940's when the United States first initiated its Nuclear Weapons Program. What caused this particular material to be utilized as a form of ammunition by the U.S. Army was not only its unique physical properties and extreme effectiveness as a weapon, but certain financial burdens that made it more economical to use rather than store. When DU stockpiles were estimated to be in excess of 500,000 tons, the costs associated with the housing of this kind of material quickly became apparent.

www1.american.edu...

Some DOD reporting:

But a little-known 1993 Defense Department document written by then-Brigadier Gen. Eric Shinseki, now the secretary for the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA), shows that the Pentagon was concerned about DU contamination and the agency had ordered medical testing on all personnel that were exposed to the toxic substance.
The memo, under the subject line, “Review of Draft to Congress – Health and Environmental Consequences of Depleted Uranium in the U.S. Army — Action Memorandum,” makes some small revisions to the details of these three orders from the DoD:
1. Provide adequate training for personnel who may come in contact with DU contaminated equipment.
2. Complete medical testing of all personnel exposed to DU in the Persian Gulf War.
3. Develop a plan for DU contaminated equipment recovery during future operations.
The VA, however, never conducted the medical tests, which may have deprived hundreds of thousands of veterans from receiving medical care to treat cancer and other diseases that result from exposure to DU.

www.veteranstoday.com...
Additionally, many records that needed to be provided and investigated, were conveniently 'destroyed?'
Army Admits Gulf War Medical Records Destroyed

I hope some other service people chime in here, and thanks for your input usmc0311

Depleted uranium causing issues with newborns? Nah, really?
This is sort of an old issue since we have been using these types of ammunition's for years.
This site covers the types of deformities that were caused by the uranium in iraq:Depleted uranium babies
Many Gulf war vets have also tried shedding some light on this issue but have been ignored.
They call it "Gulf War Syndrome" Heres my source:Gulf war vets



I personally find it SICK that the united states government allows uranium to be used in the making of bullets, when they must have known all along what effects it has on a human being.

reply to post by usmc0311


I want to tell you thank you for this, for speaking and being willing to speak. It is appreciated.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


I deal in facts known. Not unknowns. Gulf War Syndrome, in my personal opinion, has more to do with unrefined vaccinations against chemical agents feared to be used against US personnel than DU itself. DUs properties do NOT resemble the type symptoms suffered by those vets. They are not consistent with heavy metal poisoning which is what you would get with DU. While acute DU exposure can be pretty nasty, the aerosolized particles after a DU round has been fired do not remain in the air like a cloud. Many of the effects of DU poisoning is the same as lead poisoning. It is a heavy metal. I am not saying the stuff is SAFE, I am saying that it's concentrations, in order to cause what is being purported here, have to be MUCH higher, as in total saturation, to produce these effects long term. You would also have to ignore other conditions of warfare and similar effects in other war stricken regions to make the determination that it is solely this substance that is causing these problems. You can't do that and have an honest debate on this issue.

I am not saying that there is nothing to be discussed here. I am saying that if we're going to discuss this it would be in our favor to not exclude everything probable in favor of anything possible.

BTW I wear a uniform too.