Why Are So Many People Debating About Gay Marriages? You've All Got It All Wrong!

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Also I want to add something very important

If this thread became a debate then NewSoul WON!!!!

While she was patiently giving her arguments and portraying herself like nothing less than an open book and willing to talk about anything related to the debate impatient people barked at her, name called her and therefore lost the debate.

This should be a lesson to everyone, it doesn't matter how strong you feel your opinions are correct.
If you approach a debate in such a neanderthal-like manner don't expect others to consider you as the intellectual participant.

This happens so often in the Social Issues section of ATS and it's usually the same confrontational people.
It's so crazy that those who consider themselves the most open-minded are the most confrontational.

Some people consider themselves so open-minded and tolerant of people who think different then them, but then are SHOCKED when they realize there actually are people who think different then them and then their guns come out.

It's like a paradox

LOL!!! I am SOOO happy you wrote this, because as I was reading, I was thinking exactly as you just stated. It is a perplexing paradox that baffles me. I consider myself very open minded. I am willing to discuss ANY of my beliefs with anyone else, and will wholefully listen respectfully to their beliefs as well. EVEN if I disagree with them, who am I to try to convince them they are wrong? Or better yet why would I make silly judgements/accusations about someones character based upon what the computer screen is showing me? The term "respectfully disagree" seems to be non-existant here, because if it is a disagreeable point of view, people jump on the "you are a _____", or "so what you're implying is ______". It is frustrating.

Thank you for pointing out what I couldn't have put any better.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by kaylaluv
With puberty, comes those feelings about the gender you are going to be attracted to. It's not necessarily hard-core sex yet, but it's definitely different than before puberty. Boys those ages have been having crushes, and girls those ages have been having crushes since way before TV, movies, or "sexy ads".

Puberty is usually the time when gay kids start to have an inkling that they are gay. It's not about the sex act.

I do think its a lot younger these days.

And I don't necessarily think its because of media exposure.

Maybe its about being more open and outgoing socially.

My point was that 12 yrs was not too young to be having crushes. Now, age 5 is a little too young to be having a crush!

Originally posted by IanPaul

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by Annee

 

Please, how is that a cop-out? Is that not equal rights between you and I?

No it is not equal.

It is not Human equal - - as in who you love - - who you are emotionally and physically attracted to.

It is absolutely a cop out.

Annee, I have quite a serious question for you, and I would like your honest answer.
If a father were to fall in love with his 8 year old daughter, or even 16 year old daughter, and the daughter shared the same love back with the father, would it be ok for them to get married? or even to have a physical relationship?

Adult consent. Consent also applies to inanimate objects and animals.

In the older days of Royalty Bloodlines - - brothers/sisters - - probably even fathers/daughters - mothers/sons did marry each other to keep blood lines pure.

Toulouse-Lautrec was not a dwarf as some people think. He had a genetic disease as a result of his parents being first cousins.

Did you know sperm bank babies are given a code number so they don't hook up with someone with the same code number?

There is a legitimate reason not to inter-breed.

Originally posted by H1ght3chHippie
When judging if someone should be allowed to do something, you only need to consider one thing.

What if everyone did it, would that be okay.

Take a simple example of throwing your garbage on the street.

Does it matter when a single person or a very tiny fraction threw the garbage on the street ? Certainly not.

How about if everyone threw the garbage on the street ? How about that ? Still okay ? Nope.

Conclusion: No-one is allowed to throw garbage on the street because we would live in a huge pile of junk and diseases would start to spread if everyone started doing it.

Apply that example to "Gay marriage". Not bad if a tiny fraction of the people does it .. who cares ..

How about everyone turns gay over night. End of human race. End of story. Stop telling me something that will inevitably lead to the extinction of our own race would be "acceptable".

Homosexuality is a social / mental disturbance, maybe caused by substances that are similar to female hormones ( In Plastic bottles for example ) or, in some cases, a simple en-vogue thing. It's "hip" to be gay right now because it's being propagated by the mass media as being socially acceptable.

Procreation is the very fundamental concept allowing for our species to evolve. If you consequentially and permanently exclude the possibility that you procreate, you are useless in evolutionary terms. Things that become useless in evolutionary terms, become extinct. Law of nature.

That's my personal opinion, and it is solely based upon rational considerations and logic, so don't you even try giving me this "you're homophobic " crap.

According to your logic, we shouldn't allow women who aren't interested in having children, to get married, because what if all women decided not to have children. Do you see the lack of logic in that argument? There are women who get married who don't have children - that certainly hasn't stopped women who DO want to have children, right?

Oh, and there has been plenty of homosexuality way before plastic bottles.

Church is a man-made institution, too. So should religion not be a right? Just because something is man-made doesn't mean it can't be a human right.

But... I do agree. The government shouldn't worry about who you marry. All marriage really does is grant you certain rights and legally binds you to the other person. Who cares what sex they are? And further than that, who cares how many there are?

Originally posted by kaylaluv

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by kaylaluv
With puberty, comes those feelings about the gender you are going to be attracted to. It's not necessarily hard-core sex yet, but it's definitely different than before puberty. Boys those ages have been having crushes, and girls those ages have been having crushes since way before TV, movies, or "sexy ads".

Puberty is usually the time when gay kids start to have an inkling that they are gay. It's not about the sex act.

I do think its a lot younger these days.

And I don't necessarily think its because of media exposure.

Maybe its about being more open and outgoing socially.

My point was that 12 yrs was not too young to be having crushes. Now, age 5 is a little too young to be having a crush!

Yes you are correct. I have a 12 year old granddaughter I am raising. Its really kind of comical to observe.

But a couple of her friends started early

Originally posted by Snoopy1978

Originally posted by TruckDriver69

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by TruckDriver69

 

Super puzzled by what you just said. You fear the small group of "gay elitists" and their agenda?

The agenda is to make money. It's always been about money. As much for religious organizations as it is for the gay side.

There is no nefarious "Gay Agenda", other than wanting to make massive ammounts of money off gullible folk who support the "movement".

Otherwise, it's just wanting the same rights afforded to others.

~Tenth

No reason to be puzzled. I do fear the "gay elitists" as you call them. I really don't think the agenda is just about Gay Marriage and I do not think its as simple as money.. It seems to me there is more than just gay marriage they want recognized. They want the whole thing, every aspect of the lifestyle very visible and very much in my face and my children's face for some reason??? That silent majority is not swaying my opinion either.

Wont you think of the CHILDREN?!

Fear this, fear that. Fear the gays, muslims, terrestrial and extraterrestrial aliens. Fear change, progress, technology, medicine, plants, animals, evolution, God and Darwin. FEARRR!!!

Man up and stop being scared, bro.

Nobody is out to get you.

There, there. Theeere, theeere.

I am thinking of the Children. I'm just not doing it in the context that the homosexuals want me to think about them. As far as manning up, what does that have to do with anything? Where in my post did I say I was not manning up? I am standing up for my beliefs and you are going down the road of belittlement which is A Typical of the homosexual community when they are losing a debate..

Your fear diatribe falls flat as well. Please come up with a better argument to get your point across or just don't respond at all. My response is based on facts and I can back them up. I think you just fear that you can't defend your position.

Originally posted by OrphenFire
Church is a man-made institution, too. So should religion not be a right?

Just because something is man-made doesn't mean it can't be a human right.

Yes it does
Because you have to understand what a right is in today's western world.

Today if something is a right then Govt. has to give it to you.

Liberals say that healthcure is a human right and they therefore expect govt. to supply it, enter the mess that is universal healthcare.

So whatever right we are talking about, it's the responsibility of a household/adult individual to achieve it

Originally posted by OrphenFire
All marriage really does is grant you certain rights and legally binds you to the other person. Who cares what sex they are? And further than that, who cares how many there are?

Yes - - Legal Government Marriage is a contract to protect rights and property of those who join together as one - - and afford other options/benefits/rights - - not afforded by any other means.

Government of the People - - - ALL of them.

And that is all it is. It has nothing to do with religion or any other belief - non-belief.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by IanPaul

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by newsoul
reply to post by Annee

 

Please, how is that a cop-out? Is that not equal rights between you and I?

No it is not equal.

It is not Human equal - - as in who you love - - who you are emotionally and physically attracted to.

It is absolutely a cop out.

Annee, I have quite a serious question for you, and I would like your honest answer.
If a father were to fall in love with his 8 year old daughter, or even 16 year old daughter, and the daughter shared the same love back with the father, would it be ok for them to get married? or even to have a physical relationship?

Adult consent. Consent also applies to inanimate objects and animals.

In the older days of Royalty Bloodlines - - brothers/sisters - - probably even fathers/daughters - mothers/sons did marry each other to keep blood lines pure.

Toulouse-Lautrec was not a dwarf as some people think. He had a genetic disease as a result of his parents being first cousins.

Did you know sperm bank babies are given a code number so they don't hook up with someone with the same code number?

There is a legitimate reason not to inter-breed.

edit on 4-4-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)

Ok, that is a good "cop out" as you put it. Let me rephrase...

Annee, I have quite a serious question for you, and I would like your honest answer.
If a man were to fall in love with an 8 year old girl, or even a 16 year old girl, and the girl shared the same love back with the man, would it be ok for them to get married? or even to have a physical relationship?

And I am saying this as if the couple in question are in sane mind, and completely in love with eachother in all ways that two people can be.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Today if something is a right then Govt. has to give it to you.

I know the government should stay out of marriage argument.

But that is not the problem.

The problem is that Government License is not Equal for everyone.

Originally posted by Annee
The problem is that Government License is not Equal for everyone.

Define Govt. License for me so I understand exactly what you mean

You mean a marriage certificate/registration?

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I have to agree. I am very liberal minded, I am not religious, I have a some gay friends, but there is ABSOLUTELY no way the Catholic 'church' can marry gay couples or any other partnership between "consenting adults who just want to express their genuine love for each other"' unless they are an unmarried male and female. They can't even marry divorced men and women ffs. that is just the fundemental rules of its existance and that's that. like, to a much lesser extent, professional boxers can't fight in the Olympics. its one of the fundemental rules of its existance... Gay people have every right to form civil unions, but not religious... But the OP has a point, maybe someone should start a new 'gay' church, if there is such a clamouring amongst gay people for a religious wedding ceremony. I rather suspect there isn't such a clamour though and this is a purely political issue. Good luck to all gay people out there about to form such civil partnerships. I wish you all the best.

peace

Originally posted by IanPaul

Ok, that is a good "cop out" as you put it. Let me rephrase...

Annee, I have quite a serious question for you, and I would like your honest answer.
If a man were to fall in love with an 8 year old girl, or even a 16 year old girl, and the girl shared the same love back with the man, would it be ok for them to get married? or even to have a physical relationship?

And I am saying this as if the couple in question are in sane mind, and completely in love with eachother in all ways that two people can be.

I gave you a legitimate answer.

You changed your wording - - - didn't you say Father/Daughter?

The "rule of law" is the girl should reach the age of her menstrual cycle.

In most states in the United States - - I think the legal age for marriage with parent consent is 12 (I'd have to look that up again to be positive).

In some states the legal age is 16 without parent consent.

In countries that have arranged marriages and marry off young girls - - the husband is supposed to wait until she is of age (menstrual cycle) before intercourse.

The idealistic situation for a young girl to marry - - would be into a family unit with older women who treat her kindly and help her learn to take care of a household and be a wife.

There have been older men who have married young girls just to get them out of an abusive household.

So -- the answer is - - totally depends on the circumstances.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by Annee
The problem is that Government License is not Equal for everyone.

Define Govt. License for me so I understand exactly what you mean

You mean a marriage certificate/registration?

You can call it whatever you want. Mine says: Marriage License.

LEGAL MARRIAGE. It is a government contract - - that basically is what it is. It is a contract of protection and affords certain rights/privileges granted by the government.

No one - - straight or gay is required to get married. It is a choice. Except gays do not have that choice. And there is no reasonable reason for them not to have that choice.

LEGAL MARRIAGE has nothing to do with any belief - non-belief - - - it is a contract. That is all it is.

If its about Gays - - then its about Equal Rights - - not about what Marriage is.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you seriously want to discuss what Government Marriage is - - - then you should have left Gay out of the discussion.

"Marriage License Truth" macquirelatory.com...

reply to post by newsoul


Are you a biologist? Zoologist? Ecologist?

I don't think this topic is for me and I don't want to participate in this dialogue, there's nothing but grief that can come from it. I guess my point is....... we here at ATS needn't be lured into every topic, participate and think we need to defend our stance whatever the topic. Some of this stuff is purely an exercise in Debate, and some just obvious trolling with provocative content.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I agree. The government gets involved in too much of our lives. Even though I don't see the difference between Domestic Partnerships and Marriage with Gays, I don't actually care. Marriage is for the children and Gays can't procreate so why the grief from their side? Even so if they want to be married and as long as they don't ask for special treatment, I simply don't care.

I think from the "anti" side it's about control and from the Gay side it's about wanting attention and preferential treatment. Both sides are acting a bit nuts.

I do wish the nutty Gays would knock of the public displays and parades. Makes them look like idiots. The Gay community should take that matter into their own hands and shun the nuts who hold them back. "R" rated displays in public serves no purpose other than to put their mentally ill on display.

Originally posted by Annee
LEGAL MARRIAGE. It is a government contract - - that basically is what it is. It is a contract of protection and affords certain rights/privileges granted by the government.

No one - - straight or gay is required to get married. It is a choice. Except gays do not have that choice. And there is no reasonable reason for them not to have that choice.

LEGAL MARRIAGE has nothing to do with any belief - non-belief - - - it is a contract. That is all it is.

If its about Gays - - then its about Equal Rights - - not about what Marriage is.

Then we go back to what rights are
Most of the rights afforded by the government that you speak of thanks to this contract are not what I would consider human rights anyhow

And maybe Gays DO have that choice
There is a middleman here and it's the church

Gays should open up private wedding churches or centers and lobby for it to be state/federally recognized

But instead trying to change religion is a futile path

Originally posted by IanPaul

Ok, that is a good "cop out" as you put it. Let me rephrase...

Annee, I have quite a serious question for you, and I would like your honest answer.
If a man were to fall in love with an 8 year old girl, or even a 16 year old girl, and the girl shared the same love back with the man, would it be ok for them to get married? or even to have a physical relationship?

And I am saying this as if the couple in question are in sane mind, and completely in love with eachother in all ways that two people can be.

Here's a couple of questions for you, IanPaul. Honest answers, please.

If an atheist man falls in love with an atheist woman, would it be ok for them to get married and have a physical relationship?

If an infertile man falls in love with a quadriplegic female, would it be ok for them to get married and have a physical relationship?

Of course, all parties in question are of sane mind and completely in love with each other in all ways that two people can be.