What's the point? Do we need to rethink our whole approach to "survival"?

I have been interested in survival/prepping for going on twenty years and the more I learn about how "we" are preparing for a survivable wide spread event the more worried I'm becoming for humanity as a whole. After re-watching "Doomsday Preppers" for some reason thought that those people are thinking "small picture."

Take the two families on the show that are ready to move to a small farm in the hills. They can live out their lives there pretty comfortably. Let's say somehow they manage to fend off all raiders or whatever for many years because they are smart and armed to the teeth. When the first generation dies their grown children will pair off and and have babies, continuing the only lifestyle they know. What then? Will they interbreed? Should the founders of their joined families even worry about it?

Let me explain because this is a pretty new realization to me. A persons first concern is that of their own survival or that of your family if you have one, it's natural. So, the knee jerk reaction is that you horde food and equipment and maybe have a secluded bugout location with the intention of killing anyone else who is desperate enough to try and take it from you. Maybe you are a part of a small group who are like-minded. All serious preppers pretty much follow these unwritten rules.

What this does is set up a 'Mad Max' type of society which it's every person/group for themselves. I know that some folks crave that scenario for whatever reason, but I don't. That would be going backwards as far as humanity goes. The end of charity and goodwill. The end of trust and compassion. A return to barbaric ways that each "survivor" will be contributing with their lifestyle.

So, I guess my question is, can there be a better way? Can "we" be enlightened enough not to be so short sighted that we recreate the exact same material/power based society that we live in already?

Never mind that others weren't smart enough to prepare are well as you. Put aside the fact they didn't read the writing on the wall. Forget that you spent endless hours at the gun range. What sort of world do we want our children and grandchildren to live in?

Imagine if instead of every survivor secluding themselves, they banded together and shared resources and knowledge. Sure some (or most) will bring less to the table initially but in the long run there will be less desperate people willing to kill you and your family for a meal. Not saying that this mindset/lifestyle is an easy one to grasp, or that it's even possible because it would take a vast majority of whatever survivors are left to go against their primal instincts... but would it be more favorable instead of the road we already have went down?

Eh, maybe just I'm getting too old for this sh*t...

reply to post by RedParrotHead


Interesting idea.

I am of the personal opinion that people think too much like animals...they have to dominate a space, establish resources, and reproduce in order to create more "hands around the farm". In this day and age, we're so intelligent we have freakin' robots and machines that do what man did 50 years ago. Reproduction is more leisure than necessity in this day and age.

We don't need to dominate space because everyone is capable of getting along...not that they do.

Resources...we grow corn in labs. We have a lot of trouble, don't we?

Yeah, this survival nonsense is getting old. We are no longer farmers, people...stop acting like we're still in the 40's. I get it, you were raised to be comfortable with that life...but there's a point at which old-fashion becomes less of a chosen method, and more of a hindrance.

If everything runs off of computer chips, why on earth would you choose a plow?

We need to use this time to spiritual evolve, not cultivate callouses.

When the zombie apocalypse comes, you'll be the first to go...

No, seriously the reason is that we have already created a gimme nation. People are way less inclined to help others now, what makes you think the socialist utopia will work with it hits the fan?

reply to post by calnorak


I was hoping evolution might lend a helpful hand.

One can wish...

reply to post by Starchild23


We can expect people to act like animals because we really are nothing more than advanced animals. Even calling us advanced is being slightly naive in all actuality. What separates us from ants? Our technology? It certainly ism much else.

Survival is a natural instinct, civilization is a luxirious construct of our ingenuity and a desire to do more than simply survive. However, survival takes precedence over luxury. I don't see a bright future for a long time if the civilization we have now is destroyed.

reply to post by RedParrotHead


I think you've written out the feelings of most survivalist's dark corners of their minds, if that makes sense.

Like you, I've often wondered what Mr. Bug Out Bag or The Arsenal Family is going to do if they really are one of the last people on Earth.

Let's say 90% of people are dead and you're a survivor. What now? You're basically thrown back 100 years or more in tech because you alone aren't going to be able to do everything you need to run your world. No power, no running water, no supermarkets, no batteries (being made).

I guess if the point is propagation of the species, the best you can hope for is making a self-sustaining farm and breeding like crazy.

I'm personally to used to going to the gas station and lavishing myself in the convenience. Roller hotdogs? Yes! Fountain drinks? Yes! 6-pack? Yes! Take that away and it's just a lot of drudgery.

Originally posted by Mapkar
reply to post by Starchild23

 

We can expect people to act like animals because we really are nothing more than advanced animals. Even calling us advanced is being slightly naive in all actuality. What separates us from ants? Our technology? It certainly ism much else.

Survival is a natural instinct, civilization is a luxirious construct of our ingenuity and a desire to do more than simply survive. However, survival takes precedence over luxury. I don't see a bright future for a long time if the civilization we have now is destroyed.

But its not like we went against nature for becoming civilized, we just made our recurrent interactions more and more effective and language emerged.

I agree with the OP. We cant just give up on society, the problem is that our culture strongly favors individualism over cooperation so behaviors like admitting mistakes or weaknesses, or asking for help can damage our public image.

I think most people do not have what it takes to survive harsh conditions. I was reading another thread where people would not be able to eat their own pets, hell i would eat my wife if I had to. But the people who think they are going to run for the hills need another plan, especially near my house because I own the hills and anyone trespassing will probably get shot and cooked.

I suppose what I'm trying to communicate is that if/when TEOTW as we know it happens there will be an opportunity to lay a foundation for society that's different that history's norm. Not saying there would be a socialist utopia who all sing kumbaya together - devoid of any criminals, they'd have to breed out of the gene pool. But those who live through whatever happens will have first hand knowledge of the mistakes we've made, those born after it won't.

We can all agree that in some aspects we have risen above our animal instincts, and for the betterment of humanity. Are we smart and strong enough to do distance ourselves further from the animals? Do enough of us even want to?

Maybe it's inevitable humans as a whole are incapable of being any more advanced (not meaning technologically but I hate to use the word spiritual or enlightened here) than we are right now. Maybe we're not evolved enough yet or maybe this is as good as it gets.

reply to post by RedParrotHead


I find it best to trust the universe to give me what I need in my experience in life. Some people might call it God or whatever. What ever it has an intelligence and it looks after us.

reply to post by purplemer
[more

I can't take comfort in that. I believe our path is not set for us and we need to choose it ... and works towards our goals.

reply to post by RedParrotHead


Maybe you can have free will and destiny both at the same time.. Tao.

This actually is a very interesting topic but i think the thing that negates alot of it is that in the proposed situation x where 90% of the population die within say 5- 10 years; the people that are left are not ganna have as much reason to fight. Animals species that survive will make a strong comeback and if you survived 5 years you'll probably have some things figured out..


There will definately be a time when people can't be trusted and every stranger should be met with your trigger finger floating on the trigger, but i beleive that situation will die out after the mass of the population dies out(in this theoretical situation). Humans have always had crime and looting when resources are scarce, but otherwise human history is the story of people coming together to face tough times together.

it is a complicated situation, though because human history is also full of war...

So there is no easy answer but i think you underestimate people coming together. I beleive something like this would actually help the local community after the mass die out, and in my opinion a sense of community is what this world needs People would rely on each other again and trade between houses would help survival extremely! that can't be stressed enough, is that the best survivors will be communities of survivors, even extended communities through out a county.

When you know a legitimate doctor, legitimate blacksmith, legitimate herbalist and professional gardener etc. etc. that you can all trade back services between you will survive so much better than holed up on your land.

There's a historic reason why we live in communities and rely on each other and its because of specialization of trade.

I actually think a lot of good could come socially after the HUGE unpleasantness of the mass die off. its almost necessary at this point.

If there was plenty for all, then why would people fight over it?

The problem is that 4 percent of the population are psychopathic. Sociopaths and psychopaths have no conscience like other people. All a conscience is, is the intuition of what proper good behavior is according to the norm. Its almost like an instinct for survival. Group survival and hence survival of species.

But some people are broken, 4 percent apparently, and one bad apple spoils the bunch.

So if it wasn't for those 4 percent, everyone would get along fine.

The very best apocalypse possible would be one, that somehow removed psychopathology from the population.

Until that happens, its a viscous circle.

reply to post by RedParrotHead


20 years in the military and ten years in government contract service have made me the worlds biggest pacifist and Isolationist. Unfortunatly believing that everyone will come together and work for a better future reminds me of the"B" rated disaster movies. The facts are historic, including the LA riots, Katrina (shooting at rescue helos), riots around the world, country revolutions etc. etc. Bottom line is our food chain is running @ 100%, our infrastructure is stretched to its capabilities and we are trillions in debt. If and when the TEOTWAWKI does come (whatever the catalyst) its gonna be dog eat dog because there is just not enough to go around. If you think a small under defended communal system raising veggies in their backyard is going to stand against the heavy population of people already dependent on the system for EVERYTHING for more than a few minutes, think again. Study history, during the great depressionthe East coast population virtually wiped our every type of game food except opossum! Best thing you can do is set your self up just like the SF does. Get a few trusted allies with various skills (including a 18 delta, medic), get well armed (including munitions), make a PACE (Primary, Alternative, Contingency and Emergency) and stock pile needed equipment and food. Take care to have plent of medical supplies and the ability to store and purify water because the first two things which are going to go away are hospitals and municiple water sources. Finally, plan to get away from highly populated areas. Keep the details of your "O" plan to your team and most importantly train and take courses. Oh, and not "primative" survival course, but courses which teach you what to buy and how to use it. The reason is that even the American Indians couldnt start a bow and drill fire in a rain storm, they are the ones who perfected the "cold camp".

reply to post by CSBowie


I agree with everything you stated above. And that's how it'll go down I'm sure, as you say look at history. And once rebuilding does finally begin the survivors will follow in the same dead-end, vicious circle.

The purpose of this post was to explore if there could be a way to break that cycle. A society based on the run/hide/horde/kill animal instincts haven't served us well as a species IMO. Hopefully we're still inching towards less a animalistic mindset, and after a few more cycles of destroying what we've built we'll learn and live another way.

Till then - I want my bloodline to continue so it's lock and load I guess!

Originally posted by JoshF
I think most people do not have what it takes to survive harsh conditions. I was reading another thread where people would not be able to eat their own pets, hell i would eat my wife if I had to. But the people who think they are going to run for the hills need another plan, especially near my house because I own the hills and anyone trespassing will probably get shot and cooked.

I really hope you're joking.

Eat your wife?

People running for their lives "will probably get shot and cooked", if they venture into your hills?

This sounds really weird to me... If there are people still running around, then you can bet there are still fish and other animals, and yet it is the people you would eat?

What is the point in trying to survive SHTF if you're just going to target the other survivors?



Even if you are joking, it's not funny...

...I also take comfort in the fact that anyone as dumb as you seem to be, won't last long during a SHTF type situation.

Trust.
-someone who knows a thing or two about psychopaths

I don't want to live in a mad max world.

My opinion is that the whole point of survival is to be able to once again to create a society.

Before we can create a society again, we need to survive.

Personally, I see a chance of an economic meltdown. I also see a chance that the economy is going to rebound.

Being prepared is a good thing but what are you actually preparing for?

OP you said it yourself. People WOULD need to group together - if only because very few of us have all the skills for complete self sufficiency. If only because we need emotional support. If only because most of us won't abandon those who are dependent on us.
It was always that way. It is only recent years that have seen a major breakdown in communities and family units.
But some think that if we get this sense of community back we will see a new golden age. We wont.
Back in feudal times there were always oppressors, always criminals. And for a period, with our modern mindset and expectations, it will be worse. But it's something we will have to go through if we want our kids and grandkids to have a better life - or even just survive.

Humans are pack animals and designed by nature to follow leaders.

After the initial isolation, humans will start congregating. That is where the real fun begins, because they will congregate in specific sects.
And you can bet there will be specific sects that will want to take charge. You will see religious leaders taking advantage of the lost and scared. You will see warlords exchanging protection for service or goods.
Then these leaders will start creating war in order to gain more.
There will be people who want a more honest life who the mad maxes will try to pick their communities off. Some people will take the humane route and try to offer asylum.
Fact is, as society once again has to framework itself, it is going to be death, chaos, and the best and worst of human kind.