The ULTIMATE expression of ignorance -- "Pics or it didn't happen"

Well that blows my Santa visiting me when I was little story all to hell. I saw what I saw when I saw it. If you don't believe me, no problem, the only one who needs convinced is me. Let me tell you, I saw lots of strange things and only once did I have a camera and it was in the car in a camera bag.

Originally posted by Phage

Originally posted by intrptr

When Galileo was brought before the inquisition he invited the members of the "court" to look thru his telescope to see for themselves. They declined claiming the device was somehow "evil". That it lies. He had to read a statement that denounced the telescope as a "lie". He did, then later, privately was heard to mutter, "But it does tell the truth, it does."

Sorry to go off topic but where on Earth do you get your "facts"?

Galileo's trial had nothing to do with telescopes. A glance through a telescope will not tell you that the Sun does not orbit the Earth. He was tried in 1632 for advocating the Copernican system in a published work, contrary to an "agreement" he had made. He read no statement "denouncing" the telescope.

In 1609 Galileo gave a telescope to the Duke of Tuscany (I believe that would be a member of the Court). The Duke was stoked. Galileo's work with telescopes was hardly vilified by the PTB of the time.

The astronomical discoveries he made with his telescopes were described in a short book called the Starry Messenger published in Venice in May 1610. This work caused a sensation. Galileo claimed to have seen mountains on the Moon, to have proved the Milky Way was made up of tiny stars, and to have seen four small bodies orbiting Jupiter. These last, with an eye to getting a position in Florence, he quickly named 'the Medicean stars'. He had also sent Cosimo de Medici, the Grand Duke of Tuscany, an excellent telescope for himself.

The Venetian Senate, perhaps realising that the rights to manufacture telescopes that Galileo had given them were worthless, froze his salary. However he had succeeded in impressing Cosimo and, in June 1610, only a month after his famous little book was published, Galileo resigned his post at Padua and became Chief Mathematician at the University of Pisa (without any teaching duties) and 'Mathematician and Philosopher' to the Grand Duke of Tuscany. In 1611 he visited Rome where he was treated as a leading celebrity; the Collegio Romano put on a grand dinner with speeches to honour Galileo's remarkable discoveries. He was also made a member of the Accademia dei Lincei (in fact the sixth member) and this was an honour which was especially important to Galileo who signed himself 'Galileo Galilei Linceo' from this time on.

www.gap-system.org...

edit on 12/5/2011 by Phage because: (no reason given)

Legend has it that Galileo murmured "Eppur si muove" ("And yet it moves") when he was released by the court of the inquisition.
However, other sources ascribe this to the Philosopher Giordano Bruno to have said that when he was burned at the stake.
Quite fitting for this thread is another quote from Giordano Bruno: "Se non e vero, e molto ben trovato" - "If its not true, it is however well conceived"

4711! You are giving me goose bumps! Language skills and all!

A pic is a pic.....that is all it is. Split Infinity

The only difference with the UFO phenomenon and everything else is the fact that whenever there's a conventional UFO sighting, there are usually pictures. But as soon as someone has a story of abduction or some other outlandish claim, there is suddenly zero evidence, save for the witness' testimony. I understand that if abductions do take place, the abductors would be sure to destroy any evidence of their crime, but until we have a 100% proven factual alien abduction case, these events will be viewed with the utmost scrutiny and discretion.

Nobody has a hard time believing that murder, rape or burglary actually happen, so when someone comes forward claiming to be a victim, everyone gets busy trying to figure out who did and where they are so they can be prosecuted.

Edit: The same goes for things like "black eyed children" and "shadow people". These things have never been proven as factual occurrences. Something needs to be established as fact before it can be taken seriously enough to have testimonial evidence alone be enough to warrant further investigation.

I agree with this post and I also agree with Phage.

I have a pic of a UFO in my phone sent from a friend's friend. I probably never post it here due to the fact that it's "3rd hand" information. I don't even know if my friend's friend took the pic themselves. However, does it look quite real.

reply to post by Phage

Galileo's trial had nothing to do with telescopes. A glance through a telescope will not tell you that the Sun does not orbit the Earth. He was tried in 1632 for advocating the Copernican system in a published work, contrary to an "agreement" he had made. He read no statement "denouncing" the telescope.

Aw phage, I don't want to get roasted at your stake either. If you say it didn't happen, then I retract my statement, (because I don't have proof).

Galileo's telescope showed Jupiter with its tiny moons in its field of view. This is primary reason he began to suspect that the earth was not the center of the Universe. . He tracked the orbits of Jupiter's moons and realized this supported Copernicus. That was his proof, which almost cost him dearly. And he did retract his conclusions that were based on his direct observations before the court. I'll do some digging, but would you believe me then? You sound "mind made up".

Originally posted by Six6Six

I've seen credible members ridiculed, mocked, called a liar for not having pictures of their UFO, ET, or paranormal experience. Such demand for photographic evidence is ignorant and displays intellectual dishonesty by the one demanding such evidence.

Yeah, credible to YOU!! I have not seen ONE credible person on here.

Have you met any of these credible people? Have you looked into their backgrounds? Have you investigated their education, family and working lives to form this title of "credible".....What's that? You reply "no".

Well then you whole post is void and just opinion based on nothing but asking people to believe or listen to people they have never met and take it at face value.

people NEED proof. With out it their is no way to test the evidence.

NO ones word on here is worth anything more than a fart from a bear!!

Pointless thread.

edit on 5-12-2011 by Six6Six because: (no reason given)

But are pictures actually proof? How many pictures/videos are faked by morons to get attention?

I see this as a discussion forum where points of view are exchanged - as has been said earlier, it is often impossible to get a decent picture of what has been seen but if the information is shared then someone else may post stating that they also saw something......then discussion can be started regarding where each of them were, what time it was, what did they see etc.

We have to accept that we're not here to solve many things but merely to get the information out there and discuss it.

Saying 'POIDH' does seem both rude and ignorant when viewed in that light.

reply to post by Visiting ESB


I have seen UAP's on various occasions for many years. I have only got one photo of a UAP - which was taken with no intention of photographing a UAP. Each time I have visually witnessed a UAP, I am so awed struck that taking a photo or video of it is very far from my mind until well after the event.

Many of you know who I am and that I've had a number of unexplained situations in both investigative and personal scenarios, that were not easily (if at all) explainable. I've also been fortunate enough to capture some events (both personally and as an investigator for ATS).

With that said, I'd like to say that there have been a number of investigations that I had no video or pictures to help document and corroborate what it was that I (and sometime others) had witnessed. This does not mean that some type of phenomena did not happen. It means that even though I had cameras (some times I was even holding the camera), I did not capture the event. Now I am what some might consider a semi-professional when it comes to photography and videography. So am I somehow less credible in this field/genre due to the fact that I failed to capture the event because I was (at the time) overwhelmed by what I was experiencing?

This notion of "Pics or it didn't happen" is stupid and ignorant to anyone that is trying to examine the UFO genre. Even without pictures or video, the mere reporting of a sighting (or experience) helps out us researchers with a date and time (and what ever other information is shared), so that we can try and triangulate these sightings with perhaps someone else who may have had a sighting near that location at the same time period. I'm disappointed by those members that would make a claim that without pictures or video there is no discussion to be made. Perhaps the armchair fanatics will one day have their own experience and will understand the awe (and frustration) of trying to explain an event without any visual documentation.

reply to post by Visiting ESB



The Only Evidence I Need of UFOS! Existence is 2 Confirmed Unidentified Flying Objects! Events!

Whether it's Man Built or a Beyond the Outer Limits of Space Beings !


The Montana Ufo Incident ! 1950!


Nick Mariana UFO Footage - 1950 - Great Falls, Montana




and...........................


The Utah Incident ! 1952!
Delbert Newhouse UFO Footage - 1952 - Tremonton, Utah



Even== J Allen Hynak Said that this ( later after he was Retired from Project Blue Book ! )

Ironically a DR Hynak was a Debunker Skeptic
but just as soon as he was Let ago from the Project Blue Book !

Dr. Hynak became a believer and had his Own more Less UFO Club

Another Tid Bit is He can Be seen in the Movie Called Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind as he was also a Consultant in the Movie ! as Another is Stan Friedman !! Both of them At the End of the Movie !


J. Allen Hynek
en.wikipedia.org...
Se Here ! Below!!

Dr J Allen Hynenk (Astronomer) in 1974 - Re: 1953 CIA Robertson Panel & 1952 Utah film.

Hynek discusses the 1953 Robertson panel meeting, and how despite agreeing that the objects found on the Utah film were not birds or known craft, the panel decided to call the objects birds.

That the Robertson Panel Committee Could not Disclose to the Public and made it look like a Jet Flare

This If im Correct was Clip Below Also was Shown to the Robertson Panel the Extended Analysis


1950 montana & 1952 Utah UFO Film (Extended Analysis)



NOTE + The Films of the the People that Captured these UFO on Film
Was Made for the Classified EYES Only For the Committee and was Not Initially Made for the Public

To Me anyways this is Absolute Evidence that UFO's Exist !!

What is not Evidence is that These UFOS are Made by Man or Extraterrestrial !

If you want Proof of the existence of UFO s

look back into the Past where there was No CGI and The Ufos were a New Thing !

UFO from the 1950s



1952 Flying Saucer Report


HMMM! 1952!!

There was allot of Sighting's All over the World of Flying Saucers ( UFOS )!
Even at Capital Building Washington DC! in that year 1952

BUT.... BUT.... !

in 1951 The day the Earth Stood Still! was Made !!



Another in 1956 was Made!!



But a 1938 Comic Mag (Buck Rodgers) has a Similar Idea !



And in 1948 close to a Year after Roswell Ufo Crash This



But What Amazed Me was This ! a 50s Comic called Wings !!




Resembles Much Like this !



or This Comic made in 1953


Resembles much like this ! Claimed to be USAF Flying Round Wing a Claimed Photo Hoax but the Idea Concept could of existed !




Resembles this Idea!

Man Made by Skunk Work Projects From USA USSR

Or Aliens From Another Solar System!

That's what we need to decide ...

I still Believe there are people that are giving Hints or Leaking out INFORMATION !!
Putting this INFO in Movies, Books to Comics !


But Ill tell you One thing !

a Fiction Writers! Book Became a Reality !! Right Down Close to the Specs!!

Jules Verne's - From Earth to the Moon ! (1865 )!!!!!!!

From the Earth to the Moon
en.wikipedia.org...

Encyclopedia Astronautica
Jules Verne Moon Gun
www.astronautix.com...

It just make you wonder were in the Hell did Jules Verne Foresaw all this,, his Ideas>? or
was it that someone Told him!


One to Start with is his boarding School Teacher! Brutus de Villeroi when Jules Verne was Young !

Another what Jules Vern's Thought about what the Future was Like !

In 1863, Jules Verne wrote a novel called Paris in the Twentieth Century about a young man who lives in a world of glass skyscrapers, high-speed trains, gas-powered automobiles, calculators, and a worldwide communications network,

Fiction is the Mother of Invention!

Originally posted by Wolfenz
reply to post by Visiting ESB

 

The Only Evidence I Need of UFOS! Existence is 2 Confirmed Unidentified Flying Objects! Events!

Whether it's Man Built or a Beyond the Outer Limits of Space Beings !


The Montana Ufo Incident ! 1950!


Nick Mariana UFO Footage - 1950 - Great Falls, Montana

and...........................


The Utah Incident ! 1952!
Delbert Newhouse UFO Footage - 1952 - Tremonton, Utah

Even== J Allen Hynak Said that this ( later after he was Retired from Project Blue Book ! )

Ironically a DR Hynak was a Debunker Skeptic
but just as soon as he was Let ago from the Project Blue Book !

Dr. Hynak became a believer and had his Own more Less UFO Club

Another Tid Bit is He can Be seen in the Movie Called Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind as he was also a Consultant in the Movie ! as Another is Stan Friedman !! Both of them At the End of the Movie !


J. Allen Hynek
en.wikipedia.org...
Se Here ! Below!!

Dr J Allen Hynenk (Astronomer) in 1974 - Re: 1953 CIA Robertson Panel & 1952 Utah film.

Hynek discusses the 1953 Robertson panel meeting, and how despite agreeing that the objects found on the Utah film were not birds or known craft, the panel decided to call the objects birds.

That the Robertson Panel Committee Could not Disclose to the Public and made it look like a Jet Flare

This If im Correct was Clip Below Also was Shown to the Robertson Panel the Extended Analysis


1950 montana & 1952 Utah UFO Film (Extended Analysis)

NOTE + The Films of the the People that Captured these UFO on Film
Was Made for the Classified EYES Only For the Committee and was Not Initially Made for the Public

To Me anyways this is Absolute Evidence that UFO's Exist !!

What is not Evidence is that These UFOS are Made by Man or Extraterrestrial !

If you want Proof of the existence of UFO s

look back into the Past where there was No CGI and The Ufos were a New Thing !

UFO from the 1950s

1952 Flying Saucer Report

HMMM! 1952!!

There was allot of Sighting's All over the World of Flying Saucers ( UFOS )!
Even at Capital Building Washington DC! in that year 1952

BUT.... BUT.... !

in 1951 The day the Earth Stood Still! was Made !!

Another in 1956 was Made!!

But a 1938 Comic Mag (Buck Rodgers) has a Similar Idea !

And in 1948 close to a Year after Roswell Ufo Crash This

But What Amazed Me was This ! a 50s Comic called Wings !!

Resembles Much Like this !

or This Comic made in 1953

Resembles much like this ! Claimed to be USAF Flying Round Wing a Claimed Photo Hoax but the Idea Concept could of existed !

Resembles this Idea!

Man Made by Skunk Work Projects From USA USSR

Or Aliens From Another Solar System!

That's what we need to decide ...

I still Believe there are people that are giving Hints or Leaking out INFORMATION !!
Putting this INFO in Movies, Books to Comics !


But Ill tell you One thing !

a Fiction Writers! Book Became a Reality !! Right Down Close to the Specs!!

Jules Verne's - From Earth to the Moon ! (1865 )!!!!!!!

From the Earth to the Moon
en.wikipedia.org...

Encyclopedia Astronautica
Jules Verne Moon Gun
www.astronautix.com...

It just make you wonder were in the Hell did Jules Verne Foresaw all this,, his Ideas>? or
was it that someone Told him!


One to Start with is his boarding School Teacher! Brutus de Villeroi when Jules Verne was Young !

Another what Jules Vern's Thought about what the Future was Like !

In 1863, Jules Verne wrote a novel called Paris in the Twentieth Century about a young man who lives in a world of glass skyscrapers, high-speed trains, gas-powered automobiles, calculators, and a worldwide communications network,

Fiction is the Mother of Invention!

edit on 6-12-2011 by Wolfenz because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-12-2011 by Wolfenz because: Typos Alot of Typos OPPS!

edit on 6-12-2011 by Wolfenz because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-12-2011 by Wolfenz because: fixed forbbiden planet pic

Nice post - and so many pretty pictures and video...... Oops...

reply to post by Visiting ESB


You make a very good point, but I think that you don't realise that 99% of the time now when this phrase is used it is actually being used in jest. We're all big boys here and we can decide if we choose to believe, don't or keep an open mind. Personally even if I don't believe I think its good to have an online forum where people can discuss any claim no matter how wild without fearing ridicule. If yu really think it's a lie then just don't comment and allow the people who do believe or who are discussing from a non bias stand point to engage in further discussion.

I think bringing this point up is very good, but 95% of members use the phrase as a joke and feel the same as you. That other 5% ask for pics, but will not be satisfied with any pics or any evidence as a matter of fact.They just want to see something tangible to 'debunk' so that they can say case closed its a hoax move on. WE should all just totally ignore them, don't even respond

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

I really cannot believe the stuborness of some people who actually believe that in this whole vast Universe or even Multiverse.....we Humans are the end all to end all.

I don't believe that. I haven't met many people that believe that, in person or on ATS.
But I have very strong doubts that UFOs have anything to do with ET.

I am only responding because you did. I too believe ET's have nothing to do with the modern view of UFO's.. Anyone need a fan?

On topic.

Pic's please or this thread did not happen.. Yeah, I can see how annoying that can get.

Aside from that. The other problem are the Posting whores. If Someone else post's something that has any relation to the post they made, they say: This thread or topic has already been posted, Please follow this link. Even if it's from five years ago. I don't see the problem is reigniting older topics that are dead, But only if it's not from the same OP. !! THANKS!

Without pictures nobody can really picture things correctly.

I agree with the OP. Sometimes on here the person telling the story gets ripped apart, even if they admit up front that they don't have photos, people still ask for photos! I think much of it has to do with people being jealous of the person and then wanting to see it for themselves. When they can't they get pissy.

Then there's the people who could debunk anything. "That photo is too bad, fake!" or "That photo is too good, fake!" I tell you one thing, if I ever get a shot at a UFO with my kit it will be some of the best photographic evidence you've ever seen. I'm a pro. And yet the first time I saw a UFO was with a friend in high school before I was into photography. The two of us together had a lot of credibility as responsible teenagers, and he was even an Eagle Scout. There was even a bright flash and missing time, among other strange occurances. The second time I saw a UFO was during a violent thunderstorm that had a tornado warning. Unfortunately for me the only CF card I had available at the time went missing, even though I had my dSLR in hand. I didn't get the shot, and it only lasted for a brief period, but it was likely ball lightning anyway after I conducted further research on the matter.

My point is even someone like me, a pro photographer, often doesn't have a chance to capture the moment. Sometimes the sighting only lasts for 5 seconds. But those 5 seconds are incredible and change your life forever. Nobody can take that away from the person with the sighting. No debunker, no expert, nobody! You know it when you see the real thing, because you don't even have time to crap your pants. You're just shell shocked, and everything you've known about the world up until that point transforms. You feel like you're now in a "more real" reality than you were previously. Like you know the biggest secret in the world but hardly anyone believes you.

As for my opinion of these sightings, I believe they are likely extra-dimensional. Some might call them "demons" or "jinn." I also believe that there are some that are "angelic" in nature. Essentially some of them are good, but many of them are bad, with evil intentions. I am of the opinion that a "good" one latched on to me. Like a guardian angel or something. Ever since that night in high school I've affected street lamps when I walk past them. The effect has diminished significantly since then, but every once in a while it will flare up again. I think it has something to do with the energy surrounding me associated with that event, and sometimes I feel as though I can "tap into" it and slow the world around me for brief moments. Another odd thing is after this event, the right side of my brain activated and I became much more artistic. I was given some sort of a psychological evaluation at school (as was everyone else in class) and the result was that I was a "concrete abstract thinker." My teacher thought it was an error so she gave it to me again and I achieved the same result. Apparently it's pretty rare, which makes sense because those are two polar opposite terms. It probably explains why I believe in God but love science, I'm a nerd who loves sports, I'm a photographer and designer yet also program and build hardware systems, I'm a Mac, PC and Linux user, and in general I'm equally comfortable leading or following. But before my first encounter, I was just a normal, albeit shy kid who was good at math and programming, who couldn't draw to save his life. Weird, huh?

Well that got kinda off-topic, but suffice to say that some of this stuff is real, and some of it is fake. But even if 1% of it is real, then it's still real, and should be explored further. And I know what I saw was real, therefore the phenomenon is real. That's just a fact that I carry with me daily, even though it was difficult to accept at first. I just hope that in my lifetime we will know definitively what the truth is, though I have a feeling that I may someday regret saying that. Knowledge often comes at a price. Regardless, when it comes to ATS and someone tells their story, we should be respectful of them and cross examine them in a manner which isn't demeaning. And if they don't have a photo, well, too bad! Most of the stories we tell our friends and family every day don't have a photo. The problem here, however, is that the implications are HUGE.

reply to post by Visiting ESB


ok I believe you and I don't need to see any pictures!



farout.... When I was delusional I was upset when people tried to get me to see reason and now that I am un-delusional, I am so very grateful because it was the ridicule that helped me to become the new un-delusional me.

keep up the ridicule!

Originally posted by JonU2

But are pictures actually proof? How many pictures/videos are faked by morons to get attention?

I see this as a discussion forum where points of view are exchanged - as has been said earlier, it is often impossible to get a decent picture of what has been seen but if the information is shared then someone else may post stating that they also saw something......then discussion can be started regarding where each of them were, what time it was, what did they see etc.

We have to accept that we're not here to solve many things but merely to get the information out there and discuss it.

Saying 'POIDH' does seem both rude and ignorant when viewed in that light.

The thing is when morons fake video or pictures they make mistakes that others with a bit of knowledge can spot, prime example no stars in Apollo moon pics, that's due to exposure anyone with a basic knowledge of photography knows why that happens.

Thats why lots of sceptics like myself hang around here in the hope that one day the real deal is shown, if we see it we will back that to the hilt!

Originally posted by JohnnyAnonymous
Many of you know who I am and that I've had a number of unexplained situations in both investigative and personal scenarios, that were not easily (if at all) explainable. I've also been fortunate enough to capture some events (both personally and as an investigator for ATS).

Can you point me to where this info is on ATS please? I'm interested to read what kind of experiences you had while investigating.

reply to post by Visiting ESB


How many murders trials have been decided by a lone TESTIMONIAL through an online conspiracy forum notorious for "crying wolf".

A place where 1/3 threads seems purely like a trolling? And if not trolling maybe crack addiction or a loss of reality where people can't explain something so believe want they wanna believe as FACT?

Take everything with a pinch of salt no one is credible more than anyone else here we are all tough guys on the internet.

reply to post by kykweer


yes that is a very good point you raise!

what about the boy who cried wolf?

hmmm