Religion and Burden of Proof

Greetings...

It's the classic argument:

A: You are the one who claimed there is no God, so you're the one who should provide proof.
B: No. You're the one who claimed there IS a God and therefore, you should prove his/her/its existence.

As an Agnostic, I see that religious people are the ones who should provide proof for God. But, it's not that simple. You see when people say "God" they mean one of two things:

1- 'A' Creator.
2- The God of Judaism, Christianity, Islam

Yes, let's stick to the Abrahamic God and forget about the other deities in this thread. Now, the most time wasting and non-intelligent conversation an Atheist or Agnostic will have with a Jew/Christian/Muslim; is that which seeks to prove the existence of "a" creator to the universe. Because let's say that the Muslim for example succeeded, somehow, in proving that the universe is created… by a creator… did he really prove that the God of Islam, Allah specifically; is that creator?

Didn't he just do Christians and Jews a favor by doing so? Now he has to start telling you all about his religion which he mentioned nothing about trying to prove the existence of a creator, and you might still not be a Muslim after all! I mean, unless you prove God by finding star constellations forming verses from the Quran in Arabic, how the hell could you prove that the creator of the universe is the specifically Allah?

I've been invited by many Christians and Muslims to debate the existence of God and every time the debate is over after 2 minutes. Because those believers are geared up with tons of philosophies and quotes from scientists about the existence of 'a creator' of the universe, but, once I mention that I have no problem believing in a creator, I just have a problem proving that your specific God is that creator you and I agree exists, that's when the conversation ends.

Because you know what? When you tell them that you need proof that, for example, the Muslim God Allah exists, they're gonna HAVE TO pull some verses from the Quran; no more complicated philosophies about an anonymous creator who could be an alien or a giant human being from a higher dimension and all that non-observable non-test-able stuff is now off the table. It's all verses now; verses that will be examined under the microscope of logic and common sense. This is usually where it all just collapses.

You, atheists and agnostics out there, have got to try this magical approach. Don't waste your time trying to prove a creator doesn't exist to a theist. You just do that with Agnostics. Theists? Go for their holy books… go for the religious teachings of your opponent… that will do the trick. If the religious person proves that the Bible or the Quran has miracles, then he wouldn't have to prove a creator for you. Why try to convince me there's 'a creator' where you can just give me the evidence form your religion which will do both? Proving your religion is true and that there's a creator?

Well, let me answer my own question. It's because you guys don't have that other evidence; so you just go for scientists' and philosophers' work. Now, a critical question:

Can you, Muslim, prove that Allah is the creator of our universe?

Can you, Christian, prove that the God of Christianity is the creator?

No, you can't. Philosophically and logically, the very idea of proving that God exists is fallacious and impossible. It has to be pure faith. Any talk about logical proof is just absurd. How?

When I thought this whole thing through, I found out that there's a Paradox I like to call: Paradox of Ideal Evidence.

1- The evidence that a certain God exists must be obvious 'enough' so people will believe in him. If it wasn't obvious enough, you can't blame people for not believing in God, because, the evidence that this God exists is simply not obvious enough.
2- The evidence that the same God exists must NOT be obvious enough so people will be sure he exists because that would defy the whole purpose of the concept of faith and the test we're going through.

1 and 2 are mutually exclusive and yet we are supposed to place them both together in our belief system, miraculously. Now think about that again… it's tricky… I will rephrase:

God wants you to have faith in him… so he can't provide you ANY hard evidence that he exists, because if you get ANY evidence, you won't have any faith, it would be an observable non-negotiable fact which is not what he wants, not to mention; we wouldn't have a single atheist on earth. At the same time, God can't hide all evidence that he exists because if he does, why would he blame us for not believing in him?

So, which one is it theists? Is there an evidence your God, not just a creator, exists but for some reason only you can see it? And if so, what is it? Or is there no evidence that he exists and it's all just faith, in which case you can't blame anyone for being atheist or a believer of another faith?

Now the most common reply I get for this is:

Of course not, God didn't just leave us like that with no evidence he exists. How can you say that? God's creation is everywhere, and it's hard evidence he exists. To that I say: sorry, God's creation, again, if it proves anything, it is that "a" creator exists. Not Yahweh, not Allah, not Jesus. Because the creation doesn't say Allah. It just says "creator". Atoms are not signed "Made by Jesus". And, again, if it's hard evidence, how can you have faith?

So, theists, I will ignore the fact that if you DID provide me any evidence that God exists it will be logically inconsistent with the concept of faith, yes, I will ignore that fact and ask to you provide me any form of evidence that your God is the creator of this universe? Will you, please, not try to convince me that there's a creator as I obviously believe in one? Let's get to the verses shall we?

Waiting for your replies... and please, give me your best shot will ya?

Peace

Cool thread and interesting approach. My guess is that they will say that they don't have to prove anything to you. It is by faith that you must believe these things, but I don't have faith. I suppose I'm screwed.

Anyways, I've learned that just because you have faith in something, it doesn't make it true. Look at all the religions in the world. Most of them have faith that their beliefs are correct, but they can't all be correct. Hence, having faith does not equal having truth.

reply to post by Hydroman


Yes, I agree, and if it's all just faith then you shouldn't blame me for worshiping rocks or trees or George Bush... because it's faith. If you have faith, no one can touch you. And you're most likely, a dangerous person because faith is suspension of logic.

Yes... faith = suspension of logic. This is not a metaphor or "another way of putting it". This is IT.

Or just face the fact that someone believes differently than you and get over it.

reply to post by TheAlmo


Yes, You win. Faith = Suspension of logic.

But, what about the faith that you hold in some matters? How about electricity? When you touch the light switch, you have faith. Not logic.....No logic exists when you expect something you can't see, taste, smell to react to flipping a switch. How bout, if you are married, faith that your partner will remain "faithful"? Everyone has faith in something.

One more point...... You have "faith" that your reasoning and logic is and will be correct at the end of your life. Your faith, gamble, logic is just your hope? That is a bigger gamble than I am willing to take.

No blble or quotes from any holy book. Just my logic

Awesome approach my friend!

I believe in a creator simply because there is a creation.

The Bible is bunk.

The Quran is bunk.

The Torah is bunk.

The heart is steadfast and true.

I believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Why?

Because he is part of creation and the creation IS the Son of God.

Therefore I am the Son of God too, and so are you.

I believe that Jesus spoke the truth and lived it. That truth is simply to love one another.

The way I see it, in a world of 7 billion people, all with their own unique perspective, the only way we will ever have peace is if we do learn to love each other DESPITE our differences.

All of our social ills come from competing with each other. Imagine what we could do if we cooperated to address the needs of all of us. There is no limit on what we can do.

All that is logical thought processes.

Where my faith comes in is that I have unending faith that this world will see this truth before we destroy one another.

If not, well then it will not matter whether my faith was unfounded or not.

No one will be left to ridicule me.

Great thread!

With Love,

Your Brother

religion is absolutely redundant.

reply to post by TheAlmo


I believe that it should be proven that he exists versus proving he doesn't exist.

That is the most popular theory from what I have heard.

reply to post by dakota1s2

what about the faith that you hold in some matters? How about electricity?

I hold no faith about electricity. I can produce and reproduce electricity and test its presence or absence using devices. You can't do the same with God. Yes, I can't see, smell, hear, or taste electricity. But, I have devices that help me see and hear indication of its existence. Is there a device like an Avometer for God?

How bout, if you are married, faith that your partner will remain "faithful"? Everyone has faith in something.

That's true. Every one has faith in things that exist. I can see, hear, smell, taste, and feel my wife and putting faith into her is practical because there's actual gain behind it. Gain that I can physically measure.

You have "faith" that your reasoning and logic is and will be correct

Ummm... I am not sure who's reasoning and logic shall I trust if it's not mine. Shall I trust someone else's logic? Okay, well get this: you saying that one shouldn't trust their own reasoning and logic is in itself a form of logic and reasoning of yours... and you shouldn't trust that.

Originally posted by dakota1s2
But, what about the faith that you hold in some matters? How about electricity? When you touch the light switch, you have faith.

Wrong. Horrible example, imo. The light switch is designed to perform a certain function. It does the function it is designed to do. You can test it out and show that it does its function over and over. Seeing this happen repeatedly gives evidence that it works as intended. If it doesn't work, you can replace it with a new one, as I have done many times, and the function will be there once more. See, you have a reason to believe it will work, because of repetitive experimenting showing that lights will come on or go off when you flip the switch. This is similar to how science works.

A better example of faith would be this: I want to turn on the lights, and I believe that if I hop up and down on one foot 10 times, the lights will come on.

Originally posted by dakota1s2
One more point...... You have "faith" that your reasoning and logic is and will be correct at the end of your life. Your faith, gamble, logic is just your hope? That is a bigger gamble than I am willing to take.

No blble or quotes from any holy book. Just my logic

What are you losing or gaining when you die? What gamble are you speaking of?

reply to post by TheAlmo


I'm not saying you should trust any but your own.

What I am saying is just because you or I trust our own doesn't make us right. I personally am content with what I have faith and trust in. I hope you have the same. I really have no doubt and that gives me peace and comfort. I don't want to live the rest of my life wondering "What if I'm wrong" and I hope you can do the same.

reply to post by Hydroman


What I am gaining is peace. That's all...... contentment and peace. I would rather live life this way than your way. i suspect that way deep down somewhere in the psyche of most who don't have faith in an eternal existence there is doubt.

The reason I think this way? I believe all humans have an innate need for a Creator who(far above our ability to understand his wisdom and reasoning) is controlling the inevitable outcome.

I can prove the God of the Holy Bible created the world and everything therein with Physical, Visually proof. All we need to do is just wait until he appears, simple as that!

According to the Bible, Jesus Christ (God) said He would physically return, kill millions, and set up shop as King of kings on the Kingdom throne in Jerusalem.

Soooooooo, all we need to do is wait and see if what He said comes to pass. Easy as that.

(P.s. The anti-christ will do exactly as I described above in an attempt to counterfeit the future coming King. That's all the devil can do, he imitates God since he has no inspiration of his own. Poor critter.)

Religons are supposed to evolve just like science. They are work in progress but unfortunatly people are very recistante to change. Normal Science don't seem to want to research out of body experiances and near death experiances. And how will you persuade me that there is nothing "more" when I have had an spiritual awakening and can feel physical differences in my body that make me harmonious. Just because you havent found god do not mean nobody has. I have never found gold but some people have. We all have our own path to experiance. Im a beliver in All is One and that all souls are meant to evolve. I read a lot of religous text from different sources and from a higher perspective they show the same thing from a different view. I don't worry about if my belifs will be right on the target because I belive it don't matter if my faith is wrong. It's what you are that matters not what you belive. Just because we have an ego don't mean god has one. We have all the time in existance to understand and evolve so there is no real hurry if you don't want there to be. It is always your choice and your karma.

Before enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. ~Zen Buddhist Proverb

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts, but if he will content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties. ~Francis Bacon

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought. ~Matsuo Basho

When the student is ready, the master appears. ~Buddhist Proverb

IAMIAM I always love your responses. Thanks for existing and brightening up my day. Your soulbrother. Namaste

Originally posted by dakota1s2

What I am gaining is peace. That's all...... contentment and peace.

This can be gained in any religion. It doesn't make any of them true.

Originally posted by dakota1s2
The reason I think this way? I believe all humans have an innate need for a Creator who(far above our ability to understand his wisdom and reasoning) is controlling the inevitable outcome.

Which is why the idea of gods and creators came about.

Originally posted by KJV1611
I can prove the God of the Holy Bible created the world and everything therein with Physical, Visually proof. All we need to do is just wait until he appears, simple as that!

According to the Bible, Jesus Christ (God) said He would physically return, kill millions, and set up shop as King of kings on the Kingdom throne in Jerusalem.

Sounds like a great guy. Until then, I'll be waiting, as have millions of others over the millenia.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

The Bible is bunk.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

I believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

Jesus was introduced via the bible...........but the bible is bunk............but you believe he was the son of god as claimed in the bible.................but the bible is bunk....................

You should take some time to actually think about what you believe, and then write it down

reply to post by TheAlmo

So, theists, I will ignore the fact that if you DID provide me any evidence that God exists it will be logically inconsistent with the concept of faith, yes, I will ignore that fact and ask to you provide me any form of evidence that your God is the creator of this universe?

I don't think that it should be assumed automatically that God did create the universe. Let's say for the sake of argument that God has a name, and his name is YHWH, and what he is famous for doing is planting a garden which we know today as, Eden.
Take that same principle and apply it on a larger scale and you have the gods, who we assume are in league with YHWH, who has taken the role on this planet of being the chief of the council of the gods, where each mountain has a god who lives on it and is sovereign over that area which the mountain's watershed supplies. First off, at the arrival of these gods to this planet, they first need mountains to live on, and somewhere along the line, they also have to have water for there to be rain on their mountain to form rivers to supply those in their personal kingdom on the portion of earth allotted to them, so they would first off go to a water planet such as our own.
The gods unite to form an alliance to overpower the ocean on the water planet and cause it to separate to where part of the ocean lifts up and forms a dome over the world, and with the absence of that set portion as determined by the surveyor god, it exposes part of the earth below, enough for the gods to do what they do on a planet, in order to have fulfilled lives.
All this is of course legend and is man's appraisal of what their named god did and how this particular god of their mountain accomplished things that still benefit them to this very day and why we should have a nice temple on a nearby hill which symbolizes the mountain we know our god lives on top of but of course is off-limits to mortals.

I believe in God because relatively recent scientific and historical discoveries support the ancient Biblical account.

For example, the first verse of the Bible, which says that the universe is comprised of time, space, and matter. "In the beginning (time), God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter)". Only a linguistic Nazi would throw this verse out the window without comparing it to Einstein's scientific discovery of time, space, and matter in the 20th century. The Dead Sea Scrolls have confirmed these original Hebrew scriptures have remained largely unchanged despite thousands of years of translations, so we know for a fact this verse was not changed at a later date or time due to an increased human awareness.

The Garden of Eden seems plausible insofar that we know that all of civilization originated from somewhere in Africa. I believe one of the original 12 tribes of Israel could have traveled the Bering Strait during the time of Pangaea (pre-Continental drift) and became who we now know as Native Americans. My guess about the "flaming sword" that protects the Garden of Eden is the modern day Sahara Desert, an area which we know for a fact was once a luscious grassland. Whatever was once there has been covered in the sands of time and it now reaches temperatures of 136 Fahrenheit. So here we have biblical accounts of the scientific theory of continental drift and climate change.

It's difficult to provide proof for the existence of Jesus and his miracles when the only eye-witness accounts we know of have all been confined to the Bible. I think this is part of a larger conspiracy against people who followed Christ, as we know a great number of Christians were persecuted for their beliefs in the first century. The burning of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD would have destroyed any birth records, death sentences or other such documents. Faith comes into place for me here because although the dots are faint, I can connect them. Maybe the NT has been manipulated for the purposes of the papacy and TPTB, just maybe, but the fact that the same people who lived at the time of Jesus, saw him, heard his message AND were willing to die for it speaks volumes to me.

I also don't think the burden of proof falls on the Christians, or the Jews or Muslims. The burden falls on God to reveal himself to every person at least once in their lives, which He does. The burden that the truth seeker has is bias and sin, which, speaking from experience here, causes us to subconsciously rationalize God rather than simply listen to Him.

Absoloutely spot on. Bloody Christians NEED to prove God exist because God said he existed.
Wait a second?
God said he existed? and Christians have to believe by faith that God exists.
Its a dummy of a question, God exists and we are all figments of His awesome imagination. See, God imagines reality.
I dont and cant prove anything. The questionis aimed at the creation not the creator.
Jesus the Holy Spirit and Yahweh are God, why ask the pot to prove the Potter. We are less than Angels according to the bible
“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and has crowned him with glory and honour.” Ps. 8:4-5 (KJV, emphasis added)

or

“What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him?

Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” Ps. 8:4-5

Lower than angels and lower than God, dont let yourself be deceived, humanity are not Gods or even part of God. Humanity cant comprehend what will happen next week never mind explain or prove God.
Ask God yourself.
Earnestly seek the Creator out and I am sure he will honour you, Jesus God on Earth.
The reason Jesus was so special is because he was the only Deity to walk the Earth.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

The key word is faith not proof, I wonder why that is so heavily emphasised???