Religion and Burden of Proof

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
.....but the fact that the same people who lived at the time of Jesus, saw him, heard his message AND were willing to die for it speaks volumes to me.

I suppose it's a good thing you didn't follow David Koresh, Marhall Applewhite, or Jim Jones.

Originally posted by boony
why ask the pot to prove the Potter.

Hmmm good question. What's even stranger is that the potter became a pot himself to die for the other pots, according to the Guide to Pottery Standards. Anyways, you'd think that if the potter cared for us so much to pull off something like that, he'd be willing to take the time answer our measly little questions.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
.....but the fact that the same people who lived at the time of Jesus, saw him, heard his message AND were willing to die for it speaks volumes to me.

I suppose it's a good thing you didn't follow David Koresh, Marhall Applewhite, or Jim Jones.

Typical atheist argument... point to the flaws of man to disprove the perfection of God. Yes, you would be correct in that many of their followers were deceived into thinking these men were Christ figures. We know now that these men were some of the false Christs the Bible predicted because of their false promises and the very fact that their names now live in infamy. We know that Jesus is the real Christ by the fact that his very existence fulfilled thousands of prophesies. Prove to me that the things Jesus spoke of were also lies, and I will gladly throw his name in the same batch as the other men, as you already have.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
I believe in God because relatively recent scientific and historical discoveries support the ancient Biblical account.

For example, the first verse of the Bible, which says that the universe is comprised of time, space, and matter. "In the beginning (time), God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter)".

Not only does that prove god to be real, it also proves the Star Wars saga to be real.

"A long time ago (time), in a galaxy far, far away (space and matter)...

Now, to be serious, Genesis 1:1 doesn't say that the universe is comprised of time, space, and matter. Anyone could look up at the sky on a cloudless night and see the vastness in the heavens. Anyone could look around and see the earth. Then there would be the thought that at some point there must have been a beginning. By observation of these things, it would be easy to come up with a beginning story for the creation of everything. Besides, these people studied the heavens vigorously. They had to, their lives depended on it. They needed to know the progression of the sun, stars, planets, moon, etc. for planting and harvesting.

reply to post by DarkKnight21

The Dead Sea Scrolls have confirmed these original Hebrew scriptures have remained largely unchanged despite thousands of years of translations, so we know for a fact this verse was not changed at a later date or time due to an increased human awareness.

Two, as in the number, 2, thousand years, which is not so much in relation to the period of time the books are supposed to have existed, which would be something over six thousand years, I believe.
And there are hundreds of changes and that means what we can figure from scraps smaller than a postage stamp.
Some seem to be from an entirely different family of books than the official Hebrew Bible we have today, and some seem to follow the Septuagint. So there is a serious similarity but it should not be taken to mean that the Bible has remained intact since the events happened that they tell of.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
We know that Jesus is the real Christ by the fact that his very existence fulfilled thousands of prophesies. Prove to me that the things Jesus spoke of were also lies, and I will gladly throw his name in the same batch as the other men, as you already have.

Do you know why the MAJORITY of jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah? It's because he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by DarkKnight21

 

The Dead Sea Scrolls have confirmed these original Hebrew scriptures have remained largely unchanged despite thousands of years of translations, so we know for a fact this verse was not changed at a later date or time due to an increased human awareness.

Two, as in the number, 2, thousand years, which is not so much in relation to the period of time the books are supposed to have existed, which would be something over six thousand years, I believe.
And there are hundreds of changes and that means what we can figure from scraps smaller than a postage stamp.
Some seem to be from an entirely different family of books than the official Hebrew Bible we have today, and some seem to follow the Septuagint. So there is a serious similarity but it should not be taken to mean that the Bible has remained intact since the events happened that they tell of.

Maybe not word for word, but the meanings remain largely intact, and the burden of proof in this instance falls on the people arguing that they have changed by providing a comparison of the original and "new" texts. If this evidence were ever actually provided then the case might hold up. For the moment it is just as credible as faith.

reply to post by DarkKnight21

that Jesus is the real Christ by the fact that his very existence fulfilled thousands of prophesies.

I think you would be hard pressed to name ten.
For example, you could say, Jesus born in Bethlehem.
Not all the Gospels make that claim and even if they did, the City of David is Jerusalem, not Bethlehem, which was not a city but a village.
I don't think you could possibly prove Jesus existed by looking at the Old Testament, it just doesn't work that way.
Christianity comes from Paul who went to different cities in Asia Minor and evangelized the inhabitants by telling them an apocalyptic story of a cosmic Christ and never got too much into the telling of the actual person Jesus other than that he was a Jew who made the comment that God made man to be married to a wife, and that we should remember him through the taking of bread and wine.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
We know that Jesus is the real Christ by the fact that his very existence fulfilled thousands of prophesies. Prove to me that the things Jesus spoke of were also lies, and I will gladly throw his name in the same batch as the other men, as you already have.

Do you know why the MAJORITY of jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah? It's because he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

I know what the Jews believe. I want to know what you believe. Please provide the related scriptures you are referring to that do not coincide with the life of Christ.

The Jews wanted a powerful earthly king and instead they got a teacher. Go figure.

reply to post by DarkKnight21

Maybe not word for word, but the meanings remain largely intact, and the burden of proof in this instance falls on the people arguing that they have changed by providing a comparison of the original and "new" texts. If this evidence were ever actually provided then the case might hold up. For the moment it is just as credible as faith.

If it is not "word for word" then your case has no validity as an argument.
The oldest texts are probably what is there, so there is no older texts to compare them to, other than the Old Greek translations that have been copied over the centuries.
Here's a complaint I have, since I have recently gotten a little bit serious about studying the Septuagint. Look at Jeremiah 33. There is a odd portion that starts at verse 14 and continues to the end of the chapter having to do with "many" heirs of David who will fill his throne, and is a promise from God and as sure as the sun coming up every day. For one thing, it would knock out Jesus since the claim by Christians is that Jesus is the one and only to take that position. What is doubly odd is that those verses are not in the Septuagint, which is very old, but apparently got added, maybe as late as into the Christian era, and was added in order to counter Christianity since their order of things was not finalized in the Hebrew until the third century A.D.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
I believe in God because relatively recent scientific and historical discoveries support the ancient Biblical account.

For example, the first verse of the Bible, which says that the universe is comprised of time, space, and matter. "In the beginning (time), God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter)".

Not only does that prove god to be real, it also proves the Star Wars saga to be real.

"A long time ago (time), in a galaxy far, far away (space and matter)...

Now, to be serious, Genesis 1:1 doesn't say that the universe is comprised of time, space, and matter. Anyone could look up at the sky on a cloudless night and see the vastness in the heavens. Anyone could look around and see the earth. Then there would be the thought that at some point there must have been a beginning. By observation of these things, it would be easy to come up with a beginning story for the creation of everything. Besides, these people studied the heavens vigorously. They had to, their lives depended on it. They needed to know the progression of the sun, stars, planets, moon, etc. for planting and harvesting.

edit on 29-11-2011 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

Astronomy is the oldest science. The Big Bang (coined in 1949) was described as an instant flash of light. Tell me that's not the gist of Genesis 2-3.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Prove to me that the things Jesus spoke of were also lies, and I will gladly throw his name in the same batch as the other men, as you already have.

No you will not. Yet, I will try anyway.

In Matt. 16:28 Jesus said, “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." We all know that they all died and he never came. Notice he was talking directly to the disciples, not to future people.

Next in Matt. 24:29-34 Jesus is again talking to his disciples directly when he says,

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

That generation did pass and those things were not fulfilled. Notice how he also said the stars would fall from the sky, as if they are just right up there within reach, and will all fall down in unison. No, that's not how stars work. They are hundreds, thousands, millions, billions of light years away. They will not fall out of the sky.

Matthew 24:44 "So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

Aren't you guys always expecting him to come?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by DarkKnight21

 

Maybe not word for word, but the meanings remain largely intact, and the burden of proof in this instance falls on the people arguing that they have changed by providing a comparison of the original and "new" texts. If this evidence were ever actually provided then the case might hold up. For the moment it is just as credible as faith.

If it is not "word for word" then your case has no validity as an argument.

I say to you, "The tree grows fast". You answer back, "The plant gets bigger quickly." Have we lost our bridge of communication here? No, the meaning is still intact, albeit we've lost some detail from the original source. This is what happens when words are translated into languages where the related word does not exist and another word is put into its place. The meaning of the word is conveyed by some other scribble of letters to provide the same context. So yes, the argument is quite valid.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Astronomy is the oldest science. The Big Bang (coined in 1949) was described as an instant flash of light. Tell me that's not the gist of Genesis 2-3.

The Big Bang was not an instant flash of light. It was a cosmic explosion of energy that had been sitting in a certain state up until the explosion. Yes, that would produce light, imo, as well as many other things, such as matter. Btw, I'm not a cosmologist so others could explain that much better than I can.

The date at which it was coined has no bearing on truth. It could have been coined yesterday and still be true.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Prove to me that the things Jesus spoke of were also lies, and I will gladly throw his name in the same batch as the other men, as you already have.

No you will not. Yet, I will try anyway.

In Matt. 16:28 Jesus said, “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." We all know that they all died and he never came. Notice he was talking directly to the disciples, not to future people.

Next in Matt. 24:29-34 Jesus is again talking to his disciples directly when he says,

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

My friend,

I made this EXACT same argument years ago when I was an atheist. You know how I came across this one verse, this one verse that bothered me? Google. Because I didn't know any other contradictions.

What Google may not tell you is the context of the word "generation" in the original Hebrew language, "generation" meaning "age". So far humanity has seen the Age of Abraham (roughly 2,000 years) and Moses (roughly 2,000 years). We are currently in the Age of Jesus moving towards the end of the 2,000 year cycle. The fig tree parable holds water in current times, but end times prophesy is another debate entirely.

Also, I mentioned the date of the coining of the word merely to show the relative age of the idea compared to its biblical equivalent.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
What Google may not tell you is the context of the word "generation" in the original Hebrew language, "generation" meaning "age". So far humanity has seen the Age of Abraham (roughly 2,000 years) and Moses (roughly 2,000 years). We are currently in the Age of Jesus moving towards the end of the 2,000 year cycle. The fig tree parable holds water in current times, but end times prophesy is another debate entirely.

So when he said that there are some standing here right now who will not taste death until they see the coming of the son of man in his kingdom, he wasn't actually talking about people standing there right then? That doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Also, I mentioned the date of the coining of the word merely to show the relative age of the idea compared to its biblical equivalent.

What was the biblical equivalent again? "Let there be light"?

Now that you've mentioned you were an atheist, I'd like to know what the nail in the coffin was that proved to you that gods exist, and more specifically the one you believe in now. I'd also like to know whether you had always been an atheist, or a backsliddin' christian who came back home....?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
What Google may not tell you is the context of the word "generation" in the original Hebrew language, "generation" meaning "age". So far humanity has seen the Age of Abraham (roughly 2,000 years) and Moses (roughly 2,000 years). We are currently in the Age of Jesus moving towards the end of the 2,000 year cycle. The fig tree parable holds water in current times, but end times prophesy is another debate entirely.

So when he said that there are some standing here right now who will not taste death until they see the coming of the son of man in his kingdom, he wasn't actually talking about people standing there right then? That doesn't make any sense.

Keep reading. The event Jesus is referring to here is the transfiguration. This was fulfilled 6 days later with Peter, James, and John, who were supposedly given visions of the coming of the Son of Man with Elijah and Moses.

What other verses grind your gears?

Now that you've mentioned you were an atheist, I'd like to know what the nail in the coffin was that proved to you that gods exist, and more specifically the one you believe in now. I'd also like to know whether you had always been an atheist, or a backsliddin' christian who came back home....?

edit on 29-11-2011 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

A voice told me to get down on one knee and pray. This is an experience I rarely speak of because it makes people question your sanity. I think it's something everyone has to experience for their own, and I think it's possible because God is within everyone. Prior to this I was an agnostic atheist all my life.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
A voice told me to get down on one knee and pray. This is an experience I rarely speak of because it makes people question your sanity. I think it's something everyone has to experience for their own, and I think it's possible because God is within everyone. Prior to this I was an agnostic atheist all my life.

edit on 29-11-2011 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)

And this voice happened to be the god of the bible?

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Keep reading. The event Jesus is referring to here is the transfiguration. This was fulfilled 6 days later with Peter, James, and John, who were supposedly given visions of the coming of the Son of Man with Elijah and Moses.

In Matthew 16:27, it says, "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done." Then 28 says, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

So, what you're saying is that verse 28 is not talking about verse 27? If not, how do you figure? And how do you figure he was talking about the transfiguration? As a side note, what was the purpose of the transfiguration?

Also, how do you figure that an "age" is 2000 years, and that that is what Jesus was talking about, and not talking about those who were there with him?

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
A voice told me to get down on one knee and pray. This is an experience I rarely speak of because it makes people question your sanity. I think it's something everyone has to experience for their own, and I think it's possible because God is within everyone. Prior to this I was an agnostic atheist all my life.

edit on 29-11-2011 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)

And this voice happened to be the god of the bible?

I'm convinced that it was in fact YHWH. I feel this presence especially in prayer and deep study, in love and also in times of need. It takes the faith of a mustard seed to move a mountain. When I opened my mind to the slight possibility of a god I never expected to get to the place I'm at today, saying the things I'm saying. Following the word of God no longer feels like an obligation to me, it has become a passion.