Religion and Burden of Proof

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
I'm convinced that it was in fact YHWH. I feel this presence especially in prayer and deep study, in love and also in times of need. It takes the faith of a mustard seed to move a mountain. When I opened my mind to the slight possibility of a god I never expected to get to the place I'm at today, saying the things I'm saying. Following the word of God no longer feels like an obligation to me, it has become a passion.

What convinced you? Did you try other religions to see if the feelings were the same? Did you just go with the first thing you tried? How did this come about?

I'm not entirely sure myself. I stumbled across a Bible shortly after my experience and it just felt like more than a coincidence. I was reading and understanding passages that previously held no meaning to me, and for this reason I among others believe it to be an encoded book. Before this incident I studied other religions to stay open-minded and learn of other belief systems than my own, but for a very anti-religious person like myself I am drawn to the fact that the God of the Bible is the only God that teaches grace, not "religion".

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
....but for a very anti-religious person like myself I am drawn to the fact that the God of the Bible is the only God that teaches grace, not "religion".

That may be so, but just because it teaches something you like, it doesn't make it true.

reply to post by Hydroman

Notice how he also said the stars would fall from the sky, as if they are just right up there within reach, and will all fall down in unison. No, that's not how stars work.

What you are quoting is probably Jesus' refutation of Daniel.
He brings up the Son of Man which is the motif of the key vision of Daniel concerning his version of the Apocalypse. In that same telling of the vision in Daniel you also have another motif which is of the Hasidim, or the holy ones, who will be the stars and who the kingdom was to be given to by the Son of Man. So what Jesus is doing is turning Daniel on its head and saying he is the Son of man and he is going to knock the holy ones right out of the metaphorical sky. Instead of him recognizing these holy people and establishing their kingdom, he is taking the people who he sees as truly holy and taking them to heaven, and so will his kingdom be, in heaven and not of this world. You can look up the verses I earlier mentioned, in Jeremiah 33: 14 and on to the end of the chapter and Jesus is saying, 'Go ahead and make these claims for yourself, all about your holy kings but that is just not the way it is going to happen, not only will you not have a Davidic Messiah, but you will not have even what you have now."
My point being, it is not a problem with the Bible or Jesus but people who ignore the facts staring them in the face, and still imagining for themselves what Jesus said was never going to happen.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
....but for a very anti-religious person like myself I am drawn to the fact that the God of the Bible is the only God that teaches grace, not "religion".

That may be so, but just because it teaches something you like, it doesn't make it true.

You're right. I liked being an atheist more.

Mainly because I could do whatever I want without any feeling of guilt. Grace certainly has its place but it does not make me comfortable by any means, just more aware of the perfect standard that I can never live up to. I don't claim to have all the answers but I am learning. Out of curiosity I would also like to hear your answers on a couple questions. A wise man shared them with me once, and they helped me along a spiritual path I never thought existed.

1. "What is god?"
2. "What are you?"

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Mainly because I could do whatever I want without any feeling of guilt.

You may need a belief in a god then. I on the other hand can feel guilty for doing something that isn't right, and it can keep me from doing wrong things. So, you may have made the right choice. If believing in a god keeps you in line, that's good.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
1. "What is god?"
2. "What are you?"

1. I have no idea. From what I can tell, it may differ from person to person who believes in it or them.
2. As far as I can tell, I am what has been defined in the english language as "human being".

From Dictionary.com
human being
 noun
1.
any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.
2.
a person, especially as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species: living conditions not fit for human beings; a very generous human being.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Wow, way over my head.

Originally posted by Hydroman
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Wow, way over my head.

Apparently you did not read Jeremiah 33.
My current theory on the Bible is that everything in it is polemics disguised as history, or prophecy, or both. What that means is whoever had the power to re-write books of the Bible or introduce new books into the canon, did, and what they wrote was whatever was in their interest concerning the current theological disputes in their own time.
So, let's say back when Jeremiah could be adjusted and the powers that be at that time could get away with it, they added this bit onto chapter 33 about multiple future messiahs, as sure as the heavenly bodies like the sun and the moon will operate on cue like they always will. Then Daniel has the same sort of prophecy of multiple future messiahs but calls them the stars in heaven. But these are all manufactured prophecies that were tacked on to existing books with high reputations. Jesus, being actually inspired and not a fake, knows they are wrong so he tells a counter prophecy which says the powers of the heavens will be disrupted and that he would do it himself, thus fulfilling the requirement of Jeremiah 33:14, to where that would have to happen, and at the hand of a man. Jesus says,"I am that man in Jeremiah who will stop the sun from shining." Which he did at his crucifixion, for three hours in the middle of the day, it went dark as night. So, this son of man is the counter to the son of man in Daniel. Jesus' son of man nullifies the prophecy of the son of man in Daniel, with the holy ones as stars in heaven and Jesus throws them down onto the ground, which is a figurative way of saying (in the terms of the prophets) what will happen in Jesus' own prophecy, which is the destruction of Jerusalem.
The problem is that Christians are either very stupid, or under a delusion, or both, and think these man made prophecies are still good, and that Jesus' were about something else.

A couple of things:

1. I don't understand how there's a paradox of giving ultimate proof because I don't see where this whole idea of it defying this "test of faith" thing is coming from. I didn't know that believing was some kind of test. Then again, I'm not from an Abrahamic religion.

2. They could possibly give proof without giving hard, undeniable proof, thus leaving room for doubt and leaving the aspect of faith open.

Monotheistic organized religion thanks to Akhenaton who was the first and most likely influenced Moses.... IF any of this or any of these people ever existed is a great way to mold the masses toward working together to build an empire.

what we have today AKA the bible is a book naming the many military titles of one or more deities.

ey hey yeh
el shaddai
el lah roi hai
qana
ashtoreth
matronit
anat
yhva or yhwh
eloi or elohi or yeli
gibborah

All of these names at one point it became expedient for the empire builders to call "one god" and tie into the new christian deity jesus christ.

I actually believe that there is a creater of some kind. I do not believe that this creater plays any role in our lives. I do not believe that a nice person goes to heaven and a bad person goes to hell.

I believe that the building blocks of the universe were created and then the rest is just chance. So I believe in evolution ans science.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Mainly because I could do whatever I want without any feeling of guilt.

You may need a belief in a god then. I on the other hand can feel guilty for doing something that isn't right, and it can keep me from doing wrong things. So, you may have made the right choice. If believing in a god keeps you in line, that's good.

I appreciate your attempt to pin down my psychological "needs", but if you ever experienced what I have experienced you would not assume the role of Dr. Phil in this debate. You will push away my convictions because they cannot be proven and because it is more convenient for you to continue to reinforce your own disbelief. I have an open mind, even as a Christian, but I will never forget where I have been and the experiences I have been put through to lead me to the person I am today. I will continue to stand up for what I believe because I love the Lord and what he stands for. You will continue to stand up for what you believe because logic tells you to ignore the message of Jesus. I will say that cold reason is good a lot of the time. But cold reason only gets you so far in this human experience we share. And the greatest flaw that any intelligent person has is to think that they are smarter than everyone else.

Originally posted by Hydroman
1. I have no idea. From what I can tell, it may differ from person to person who believes in it or them.
2. As far as I can tell, I am what has been defined in the English language as "human being".

This is good progress. I'm glad to see you are at least not biased for or against god. It's good to start from scratch. You get the idea that the "what" is all very trivial and sometimes subjective. Now that you've nailed the "what" down as best you can, I encourage you to reflect on these questions some more by moving on to the "who". The "what" is great and all, if you're in to the whole utilitarianism thing. But really knowing the who - the essence or nature of something, now that's true knowledge. Knowledge of the "who" is only increased by learning the nature of said person or deity. I could've told you that you are a living breathing human being, but only you can tell me who you are. We can try to box God up into our neat little packages of language and tell him what he is all day, but only He can tell us who He is.

For me, I see Him as being the ultimate chemist... the ultimate biologist... the ultimate psychologist. But above all that He is also the ultimate artist. The scientist is concerned with the what. The artist is concerned with the who. Both are necessary to understand life.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
I appreciate your attempt to pin down my psychological "needs", but if you ever experienced what I have experienced you would not assume the role of Dr. Phil in this debate.

As I have not experience what you have, do you blame me? Mind you, I was a christian for over 20 years. I even gave up over 2 years of my life living in a country other than my own working with drug addicts in his name. Not saying that makes me any better, just saying that, yes, I was a believer. I had many experiences that were wonderful, and good-feeling. I realize now that I can bring those emotions upon myself, just by belief.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
You will push away my convictions because they cannot be proven and because it is more convenient for you to continue to reinforce your own disbelief.

Sure. Why not?

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
I have an open mind, even as a Christian, but I will never forget where I have been and the experiences I have been put through to lead me to the person I am today. I will continue to stand up for what I believe because I love the Lord and what he stands for. You will continue to stand up for what you believe because logic tells you to ignore the message of Jesus.

Logic tells me to ignore the message of Jesus? Some things he is quoted as saying is good, others not so much.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
I will say that cold reason is good a lot of the time. But cold reason only gets you so far in this human experience we share. And the greatest flaw that any intelligent person has is to think that they are smarter than everyone else.

I definitely don't think I'm more intelligent than everyone else, but I do like to ask questions. I like to see what people believe and why they believe it. Most of the time, the reason they believe is because of faith. IMO, that's not a good reason to believe.

Originally posted by Hydroman
For me, I see Him as being the ultimate chemist... the ultimate biologist... the ultimate psychologist. But above all that He is also the ultimate artist. The scientist is concerned with the what. The artist is concerned with the who. Both are necessary to understand life.

See, for you, your god is this and that, and for someone else he is different. Everyone's idea of god comes from their own mind. It is amazing to me how a person's god feels the exact same way as the believer does on all issues.

Originally posted by Prezbo369

Originally posted by IAMIAM

The Bible is bunk.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

I believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

Jesus was introduced via the bible...........but the bible is bunk............but you believe he was the son of god as claimed in the bible.................but the bible is bunk....................

You should take some time to actually think about what you believe, and then write it down

Yes jesus was introduced via the Bible. However, even without the Bible, people would still arrive at his truth.

The Bible is bunk because it does not emphasise what the teacher taught, but rather the greatness of the teacher.

That was NOT Christ's mission.

With Love,

Your Brother