Jewish Holocaust On The Rise... Again?

reply to post by Hongkongphooey

Well that's one way to avoid answering the question. Ask me what I think and then you can switch the subject to any flaws you believe I have mentioned and avoid explaining why Tacitus points out that antisemitism predates Christianity.
What do I think? I wasn't there. Couldn't say, My best guess? Talmudic teachings. I won't go into a line by line listing of some of the more foul Ideas contained in there. Enough to say that it taught generally Jews were only obligated to act honestly and honorably with other Jews. That should be enough to figure out that their belief told them they were permitted to interact dishonestly and dishonorably with non-Jews. Exactly which dishonest/dishonorable acts got to be too much for the inhabitants of each land? Couldn't say
Bottom line. My best guess is the elitist racist views held by Jews in the ancient land could explain it. Perhaps that's not the answer but for me it wins by default as I can think of no other.
The Jews were not the only minority at those times yet there is no other minority group that was exiled anywhere on the scale the Jews were. No other minority group made scapegoats.
Coincidence? Conspiracy? Don't you think you're stretching a bit?
Now I have given you my view. If you think it's wrong than imagine I did not argue so there is no need to waste a post on pointing out any flaws. I would much rather you now answer it.
People picked on them because they needed scapegoats?
O.K. but the question is why always them? Why didn't a dozen countries exile the Hittites or someone else?
Everyone picks on Jews. OK, Assume I'm not arguing. The question is why? There were others who could have been abused in the same way but it was always the Jews they picked on. Why do you think that was?

Originally posted by Puck 22
reply to post by Hongkongphooey

 

Well that's one way to avoid answering the question. Ask me what I think and then you can switch the subject to any flaws you believe I have mentioned and avoid explaining why Tacitus points out that antisemitism predates Christianity.
What do I think? I wasn't there. Couldn't say, My best guess? Talmudic teachings. I won't go into a line by line listing of some of the more foul Ideas contained in there. Enough to say that it taught generally Jews were only obligated to act honestly and honorably with other Jews. That should be enough to figure out that their belief told them they were permitted to interact dishonestly and dishonorably with non-Jews. Exactly which dishonest/dishonorable acts got to be too much for the inhabitants of each land? Couldn't say
Bottom line. My best guess is the elitist racist views held by Jews in the ancient land could explain it. Perhaps that's not the answer but for me it wins by default as I can think of no other.
The Jews were not the only minority at those times yet there is no other minority group that was exiled anywhere on the scale the Jews were. No other minority group made scapegoats.
Coincidence? Conspiracy? Don't you think you're stretching a bit?
Now I have given you my view. If you think it's wrong than imagine I did not argue so there is no need to waste a post on pointing out any flaws. I would much rather you now answer it.
People picked on them because they needed scapegoats?
O.K. but the question is why always them? Why didn't a dozen countries exile the Hittites or someone else?
Everyone picks on Jews. OK, Assume I'm not arguing. The question is why? There were others who could have been abused in the same way but it was always the Jews they picked on. Why do you think that was?

I was in no way not answering your question, I was just frustrated because it had already been explained to you by myself and others just why Jews were slaughtered and exiled. However, as you were not accepting of these reasons and just insinuating some underlying reason, I wanted you to explain what it was and you have not let me down with your thoughts, although they are wrong and contain the same lack of understanding that has caused much hatred of Jews. It is also something that you can only back up from neo nazi, racist hatred sites on the internet - NOT ACTUAL PROOF!

So your saying its the Jews who have 'elitist racist views' no one else, right? Not the Greeks, not the Romans, not the British Royalists, not the Vatican, not the Nazi's? OK, I see!

You are also wrong that no other groups were ever targeted for exile or slaughter, that is just utter bollocks! The Christians were obviously not embraced by the Roman Empire for at least 300 years until it suited them, didn't they 'crucify' Christians???? What about Moors, were they not slaughtered in the crusades??? Minorities are always easy targets and people like you are easy to influence with racist ideas, so it proves to TPTB (wherever and whenever) that it has worked time and again and will continue to do so for anyone who wants to win influence and power! In recent times, Chinese were slaughtered in Indonesia, Muslims in Bosnia, i could go on, get the point???

Indeed didn't the Nazi's single out other minority groups like Gypsies, Homosexuals and the Disabled in their murderous reign?

Now let me explain some things to you, so that you may have a better understanding of Judiasm before you continue to spout your hatred and lack of knowledge (I don't say this to insult you, just to enlighten you - deny ignorance).

1. Jews follow the Torah (The Law) NOT The Talmud which is just a rabbinical discussion, not what Jews practice.

2. The true translation of Goyim is not what the neo nazi groups would like you to believe, it just means 'THE OTHERS' (who follow other faiths, not of Judiasm) and that is the truth. There is NO malice intended.

3. Not all Jews are bankers, not all Jews are Israeli, not all Jews are Zionist

4. Jews have historically yearned return to their 'homeland' thus the saying over the last 2,000 years 'next year in Jerusalem'

5. Whils't it's true, Jews do go on about anti-semitsm and the holocaust, people should understand the reason why? It's very simple really, they are very afraid and they do no not want history to repeat itself again and that is the simple truth!

Now before people attack me regarding the policies of Israel towards the Palestinians, that is not what is being discussed and is for another topic thread (there are plenty of them) and I do not wish to see this thread descend into another pointless debate about what Israel has done. Many Jews support Israel for obvious reasons but, like me, they do not always like what has been done regarding the settlements, which should be disbanded and peace persued.

Cheers

reply to post by Hongkongphooey


Actually, goyim means 'nations', the plural of goy - nation. But yes, it does refer to the non-Jews. And it is not meant in derision, although, to be completely honest, there are a few bad apple Jews who say goyim with intent to denigrate.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Hongkongphooey

 

Actually, goyim means 'nations', the plural of goy - nation. But yes, it does refer to the non-Jews. And it is not meant in derision, although, to be completely honest, there are a few bad apple Jews who say goyim with intent to denigrate.

Well obviously you were given a different interpretation however, lets agree to disagree on the actual translation as they generally mean the same thing and no offence is meant by either. Again, their are Jews who use derogatory terms but by no means is the majority, usually it comes from people who have been abused badly for being Jewish (not unusual).

reply to post by Hongkongphooey

Well obviously you were given a different interpretation however, lets agree to disagree on the actual translation as they generally mean the same thing and no offence is meant by either. A

I read Hebrew. Look it up in any Hebrew-English dictionary. Goy means nation. Goyim means "nations".

Acherim would mean "others".

But yes, in general, antisemites make goyim out to be some pejorative term that Jews use for gentiles, not realizing - or caring - that the word appears in the Bible hundreds of times, referring to the nations. And many times, referring to Israel a "Goy Echad".

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Hongkongphooey

 

Well obviously you were given a different interpretation however, lets agree to disagree on the actual translation as they generally mean the same thing and no offence is meant by either. A

I read Hebrew. Look it up in any Hebrew-English dictionary. Goy means nation. Goyim means "nations".

Acherim would mean "others".

But yes, in general, antisemites make goyim out to be some pejorative term that Jews use for gentiles, not realizing - or caring - that the word appears in the Bible hundreds of times, referring to the nations. And many times, referring to Israel a "Goy Echad".

Yes I know you do, so do I and have done since a young age when religion was forced upon me and I had to attend Hebrew classes from the age of six until my barmitzvah. Many things translate differently into various meanings from different languages. I know this as I also speak Thai and Chinese

Forgive me. You keep insisting my question was answered but I have to concede if it was I missed it.
You do understand the question is about the original root cause of anti-semitism not contemporary anti-semitism? Yes?.
You suggested a desire to possess real estate but many countries gained no real estate by exiling them.
You suggested religious bigotry but anti-semitism seems to cross all religious boundaries. Everyone hated them at one time or another.
You suggested they were a convenient scapegoat but when picking scapegoats leaders tend to pick unpopular groups to begin with to gain support. I doubt anyone would listen today is someone tried to put the blame for our countrie's problems on the evil Amish people. So what had the Jews done to make themselves unpopular enough to qualify so often for the role of scapegoats?
I do not say no one else was ever exiled or abused but I say no one has managed to achieve it on a scale like the Jews. Exiled from over a hundred countries and you want to compare this with who?
So which of these do you claim for an answer as no single is historically acceptable
Do you suggest it was a combination of all these answers scattered across time? By this, do you mean in over one hundred cases of exile it was never anything the Jews might have done, it was always the other guy who was wrong?
So then I was correct when I suggested your OP should have asked the question about what people thought might be the root cause of anti-semitism but added "Please do not reply if it might indicate any flaw in Jewish behavior. Discussion on the errors of the goys desired only."
So much for an honest open exchange of ideas.
BTW Is this the underlying reason for the hate laws in Europe? To limit all 'open, honest exchange of ideas' to the errors of the goys?.Would the things I've said, my suggesting that perhaps in some of these 100+ cases, the goys might have been right/justified, been enough to get me arrested?
Understanding now the type of discussion you are seeking I guess my input in no longer desired as I might hold different ideas and not toe the politically correct party line so I guess I'm not really welcomed.
No loss since I'm not really eager to hear "Evil goys picking on us innocent Jews" one more time having heard it a few thousand times already.
So have a nice day, enjoy your victimhood and I wish you well but as I pointed out earlier "They're picking on us" gets so boring after the unteenth time so I'm out of here.

From all the "Jewish" expulsions,

did any actually create a better economic/financial environment for them in "new" frontiers?

after relocations, what did the "Jews" do for a living in the "new" frontiers?

it might be possible many Diasporas were actually mercantile/commerce "expansions".

history as it was/is written, may be excluding some hidden facts.

with all the movement over centuries, how was continued survival possible?

Originally posted by Puck 22
Forgive me. You keep insisting my question was answered but I have to concede if it was I missed it.
You do understand the question is about the original root cause of anti-semitism not contemporary anti-semitism? Yes?.
You suggested a desire to possess real estate but many countries gained no real estate by exiling them.
You suggested religious bigotry but anti-semitism seems to cross all religious boundaries. Everyone hated them at one time or another.
You suggested they were a convenient scapegoat but when picking scapegoats leaders tend to pick unpopular groups to begin with to gain support. I doubt anyone would listen today is someone tried to put the blame for our countrie's problems on the evil Amish people. So what had the Jews done to make themselves unpopular enough to qualify so often for the role of scapegoats?
I do not say no one else was ever exiled or abused but I say no one has managed to achieve it on a scale like the Jews. Exiled from over a hundred countries and you want to compare this with who?
So which of these do you claim for an answer as no single is historically acceptable
Do you suggest it was a combination of all these answers scattered across time? By this, do you mean in over one hundred cases of exile it was never anything the Jews might have done, it was always the other guy who was wrong?
So then I was correct when I suggested your OP should have asked the question about what people thought might be the root cause of anti-semitism but added "Please do not reply if it might indicate any flaw in Jewish behavior. Discussion on the errors of the goys desired only."
So much for an honest open exchange of ideas.
BTW Is this the underlying reason for the hate laws in Europe? To limit all 'open, honest exchange of ideas' to the errors of the goys?.Would the things I've said, my suggesting that perhaps in some of these 100+ cases, the goys might have been right/justified, been enough to get me arrested?
Understanding now the type of discussion you are seeking I guess my input in no longer desired as I might hold different ideas and not toe the politically correct party line so I guess I'm not really welcomed.
No loss since I'm not really eager to hear "Evil goys picking on us innocent Jews" one more time having heard it a few thousand times already.
So have a nice day, enjoy your victimhood and I wish you well but as I pointed out earlier "They're picking on us" gets so boring after the unteenth time so I'm out of here.

I answered you already but you can't have an open discussion if you only want to listen to YOUR side of the discussion, can you? I am not a victim so lets get that out of the way, ok!

Now once again, I will write this VERY SLOWLY so you can keep up, the Jews lent the Royals, governments and churches money, when it was time for the funds to be repaid, bad things happened. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? The Royals, Governements and Churches had the military power and the Jews at that time didn't have a military strength to defend themself. Have you ever lent anyone money? Did you become the bad guy when you wanted it returned? Be honest with yourself and us.

Now let me ask you, what has a Jew ever done to you to make you hate them so much (as you obviously do by your insinuations). You have not actually given any reasons as to why Jews were exiled and slaughtered just insinuations. Me thinks you borrowed some money from a Jew and didn't pay it back and that makes it the Jews fault? Am I right or was you just brought up in a home of bigotry?

reply to post by Hongkongphooey


Do you bounce from thread to thread just to call people Jew haters?

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
reply to post by Hongkongphooey

 

Do you bounce from thread to thread just to call people Jew haters?

edit on 2-12-2011 by Corruption Exposed because: (no reason given)

Not at all, I actually joined ATS for my interest in ET's, UFO's, Illuminati and other esoteric interests, unfortunately its become a bit of a neo nazi site and I know a Jew Hater when I see one. Please do tell me why do you have such a hard on for Jews, really?

Forgive my return but I couldn't resist.
You are kidding? Yes? I remember you saying that but I thought you were joking.
Why don't you take a closer look at the ancient world. There were no constitutions, no real rights. If a king had borrowed money from a Jew and did not wish to return it or was annoyed at the Jew's demands for repayment he would have simply have had the Jew put to death. Why the need to exile all his people? Was he afraid of debt collectors?
Was he afraid they would repossess his kingdom. Please let's try to keep it real.

Keeping it real, here is an example of the Jewish elite ripping off their own people to demonstrate their total lack of integrity even in ancient times.

The Jews of ancient Israel were obligated to pay a temple tax once a year.
So?
While there were many different types of monies circulating at that time, because most of these coins bore pictures of ancient kings or gods they were forbidden in the temple because of the ban on 'graven images'
So?
So the money changers sat outside the temple exchanging foreign coins for the shekels which were acceptable inside the temple.
So? This is common knowledge. What's the point?

WHERE DID THE MONEYCHANGERS GET THEIR SHEKELS FROM?
Do you really believe Wells Fargo sent wagon loads of shekels out from the mint each week?

The only source for a large steady supply of shekels would have been the temple itself. And when the money lenders purchased shekels from the temple what do you suppose they paid them with? Obviously not more shekels. So I guess the high priest, the sacred rabbis were accepting foreign coins with graven images on them.

So then if they are accepting this 'forbidden' money why didn't they just take it right from the people and cut the money changer out?

If your tax was $50 and you pay it with $50 of Roman money the rabbis got $50....BUT
They demand Jewish money which you must now go outside and purchase for $70
You give this to the rabbi and later the rabbi sells it back to the money changer for $60
The money changer made ten bucks, the rabbi made an extra ten bucks and only the poor peon Jew got ripped off.
If they would treat their own this way can you imagine them being more honest/honorable with foreigners?

Let's try to keep it real. If these elite of ancient Jewish society were not so base and low life as to rip off their own then please tell me, yes, you believe wells fargo did sent out wagon loads of new coins from the mint each week.
Or you believe the priest asked no profit when they sold the shekels they'd collected back to the money changers
Or you believe they thought it was acceptable to cheat their own but always acted properly with others

The Jewish elite/priesthood have been lowlife trash since the beginning. The most ironic part from my POV is that I do not believe the original Jewish priesthood were even Jewish. Perhaps that is why they appeared to have no love or respect for the common Jewish people.

No I have never borrowed money from a Jew. I am not aware of anyone I personally know being Jewish. I have had no actual interaction with Jews myself. But I do not need to. The pictures and stories coming from the Gaze strip are enough to turn any decent human being against the Jewish elitist.

Ok Puc.. Since we're beating you to death with answers to your questions (How do you not get them? Are you just not reading? Skipping over?) I'm going to try a diffrent approach...

Why do YOU think Jews are hated so much through so many thousands of years?

We gave you our answers, wether you achknowledge them or not... What's your take? Are Jews just geneticly evil?

btw, I wish to make this perfectly clear... I was born/raised Chatholic. I practice no religion. My faith is questionable. ....and I am not a Jew. Yet, I can very clearly see the hatred for Jews here (as a recent responder has mentioned). Though, I give credit to youngins, immaturity (youngins), and those that have not had the chance to live and see life as it really is (youngins... ok... and a ton of "adults"), to be the ones to jump on this hate wagon. To be honest, I really feel that many people, especially here included, just jump on one band wagon or another, simply to have a side and often knowing VERY little of which band they side with.

Occupy comes to mind.


One should not only choose their own side, but they should have a perfectly valid and well researched reason to present the why of their side.... Spitting out someone elses, possibly false, ideology on something because one feels merrit in their words are following the lead of another man's opinion. As seen on these threads countless times....

I have to mention this because it shows to be true.... Very recently, a thread was put up on here about some kids picking on this innocent white girl. I posted the link in my OP as a basis of my topic...

When the link was listed here, as the victim being Jewish... Alot of cranky comments came out of it. But, when the article was submitted solo, just recently, as a white girl, not a jewish girl... Comments suddenly changed to... I cant believe people act this way!


This is exactly my point for this whole topic we are now discussing. Just living under the lable of "JEW" can be problematic for these very people, related to Israel government issues or not.. Now Iran doesnt just want to wipe out Israel, he wants to wipe out ALL Jews, as one article puts it. (It was actually the words of book writters on how to kill all jews... but this is acceptable in Iran where there are Jews living as well.) Now, who says it's not possible for the Holocaust to happen again... If a people stand together for a task, those tasks havea great chance of being accomplished.

Puc, it doesnt matter that we've had a world read book of religion that condems them for all of our history... Even their own history.... Yet they learn from their history, as more than likely the reason for the documents in the first place. To learn from their mistakes as a people. For us.. the rest of the world and religions, it's become so much more.. It's become a criminal record.... A signed confession that we use to point the finger again and again.


Sure, some people dont know the diffrence or that there is a diffrence in terms.. But many still call a Jew a Jew, no matter who they're part of, where they live, or what they have done as a person.... They're all the same because to many, a Jew is a Jew and they should all be treated as such.

As for your claim to have answered my question, let's try some rephrasing and perhaps you will understand why I keep saying you haven't

So why do you think all those governments who got no land out of their actions exiled their jews?
----because they wanted the land the jews possessed............BEEP try again
Why do you think the jews were disliked even in pre-Christian times?
----because the Christians used them as scapegoats..............BEEP try again
Why do you think ancient rules who could have any Jew who annoyed them in the slightest skinned alive and freely taken all the Jew possessed ordered Jews exiled from their lands?
----because the Jews kept demanding repayment on loans they had made..............BEEP...so you have no intent ion of answering me do you?

So seriously, the question is, what was it in ancient pre-Christian times, when a king could have executed any Jew he wanted and taken all he owned, did they exile Jews from their kingdoms when such an act produced no additional lands for them in the middle east? None of the answers you have provided deals with that situation.

I will be glad to provide you with my point of view as soon as you answer the question. Until then my answering will accomplish nothing except to provide you with an excuse to change the subject.

Originally posted by Puck 22

As for your claim to have answered my question, let's try some rephrasing and perhaps you will understand why I keep saying you haven't

Why Puc, you should have done this 6 pages ago

So why do you think all those governments who got no land out of their actions exiled their jews?
----because they wanted the land the jews possessed............BEEP try again

Governments who got no land for exiling the jews? You must mean WWII erra? Diffrent time, diffrent reason. Those reasons were mentioned here, I think. The germans hated the Jews because:

- Excuse? : the Jews were taking over all of the businesses.
- Probable: the Nazi's were racist.

Beeps huh? Why not a ..Waaaa....Waaaa..... I kinda like that one alot better.



If you mean in the middle east? What time?

- Excuse? : the Jews and Other tribes, now nations, have been at war all their leniage.
- Probable : they fought each other over a family fued that's lasted thousands of years. Their beliefs are their history, or what each believe to be their truth and they fight over it still today.

So, prey-tell, the answer? Even better. How about being a little more specific about your question. Timeframe, peoples involved, what took place (factual). I can answer more specifc questions so much better. My generaly specific answer still holds true.

"Palistine" wants "their" land "back".

So seriously, the question is, what was it in ancient pre-Christian times, when a king could have executed any Jew he wanted and taken all he owned, did they exile Jews from their kingdoms when such an act produced no additional lands for them in the middle east? None of the answers you have provided deals with that situation.

I will be glad to provide you with my point of view as soon as you answer the question. Until then my answering will accomplish nothing except to provide you with an excuse to change the subject.

Confusing throwing that at the end like that. You should have put that in the beginning so I wouldnt have to race all over to find the actual question to all of your lil questions.

I guess I still dont understand your question. Why did kings not kill jews, just kick them out.... And got no extra land for kicking them out? would it have if they killed the jews? maybe they were not the kind of people to exterminate them? Maybe they had feelings? Maybe God didnt tell the kings to skin the Jews alive? Maybe the kings knew if they did, rumor has it, a mean angry God would come down and handle up on some kingly butt? I dunno. Ask those kings. Each religion may tell you a diffrent answer. I cant know that, and I dont think you can either, unless you find some real evidence that it didnt happen. The Nazi's exterminated Jews but couldnt well take the land because the land was more less carved up by other countries at the time. Besides, the Nazi's had other things to worry about. Why didnt they just exile the Jews?

Hatred - Beliefs - Racism - Bigotry

Thats probably why they were exiled. Why they were not skinned alive? Well, guess they just didnt come up against the romans till some point in time. Still, they did so. And so did the romans.

I think you're kinda centering on the land... Why didnt anyone gain any extra land?

Romans did. Palastinians did. Moses did. Oh wait... he was a Hebrew, not a Jew.

Hmmm Can anyone explain to me the diffrence between a Hebrew and a Jew? Do Hebrews still exist today as Jews? I always wondered the origins of the name Hebrew, as Jew is to Judaism?


I digress.. All in all, friend, You cant come across like you have the right answer in a debate when you dont even provide an answer in a responce, much less a source or some general idea of where you got your untold answer from.

That just looks... Self rightious.... Ehk!

"So seriously, the question is, what was it in ancient pre-Christian times, when a king could have executed any Jew he wanted and taken all he owned, did they exile Jews from their kingdoms when such an act produced no additional lands for them in the middle east? None of the answers you have provided deals with that situation."

So suddenly I am reading about Nazis. They had what to do with jewish persecutions in pre-christian times? That is obviously not the answer.
YOU suggested it had to do with avoiding unpaid loans. This is nonsensical when discussing the ancient kings. They had no parliments or courts to answer to. They could simply take what they wanted and execute any who objected so that is not an answer.
YOU suggested it was because people wanted their land in the middle east but since we are talking of them being exiled from other countries then the Jews being exiled were not inhabiting the land in the Middle East.
YOU suggested that Christians used them for scapegoats but we are looking for the root cause which predates the Christians so that is not an answer.
YOU suggest bigotry but do not explain why of all the hundreds if not thousands of different groups existing back then it was the Jews who were repeatedly singled out. Again, this is not an answer
YOU suggest hatred but offer no explanation of why this one group of people would inspire such universal hatred. No answer there. Where is this answer you keep claiming to have given?

It has become obvious by now that you have no real answer other than the standard stock "everyone is picking on us" whine you have used for decades.
I understand you want to know my answer so you can deflect the conversation to challenging any points I make and no longer feel the need to provide an answer yourself but it is a tactic so common by now I believe most people will understand why I hesitate until you finally produce an actual answer to my question. No. I do not wish to be the one to provide you with a convenient 'out', I asked a simple question. Can you stop the little kiddie games and give a straight answer? The Jews were already being described as the most vile of races hated by all as early as the 1st century A.D. Why do you suppose that was? There were no Nazis or Christian church to pick on them. They had already lost their Middle East holdings to the Romans so people were not trying to steal their land. So why did most of the world already hate them at such an early date?
But is there any point in asking? You have made it obvious you have no intention of actually answering.