Pledge of Allegiance is BRAINWASHING!

reply to post by Snoopy1978


I dont want to be to intrusive about your, but were you required to say the pledge as a child? If so do you feel like your a lobotomized zombie who pledges allegiance to govt and doesnt know any better than to obey? I am willing to bet not. I still cant see how this is brainwashing, since its so ineffective. No one sends these kids to reeducation camps for not saying the pledge....even sending to the principle is relatively minor. As was said in a post about this makes a mockery of real brainwashing. And the kids teasing children is irrelevant. They dont tease a child because the love America so much because of the pledge, they tease because he is different and that what kids do.

reply to post by Snoopy1978


I dont want to be to intrusive about your, but were you required to say the pledge as a child? If so do you feel like your a lobotomized zombie who pledges allegiance to govt and doesnt know any better than to obey? I am willing to bet not. I still cant see how this is brainwashing, since its so ineffective. No one sends these kids to reeducation camps for not saying the pledge....even sending to the principle is relatively minor. As was said in a post about this makes a mockery of real brainwashing. And the kids teasing children is irrelevant. They dont tease a child because the love America so much because of the pledge, they tease because he is different and that what kids do.

I have to ask....all of these people who take their children to protests (and sometimes make them carry signs with awesome slogans) are they indoctrinating or brain washing their children? Id argue that its much better to have kids repeat something they dont even pay attention to that pledges allegiance to a constitution is much better than these parents that take their kid to every rally in the world. Id much rather have my kids pledge allegiance to something the can generally have some knowledge about (all kids learn about the founding of the country, etc) then have them out there marching for gay rights or restriction of firearms or stopping illegal immigration,etc.

Originally posted by onfire49
reply to post by Snoopy1978

 

I dont want to be to intrusive about your, but were you required to say the pledge as a child? If so do you feel like your a lobotomized zombie who pledges allegiance to govt and doesnt know any better than to obey? I am willing to bet not. I still cant see how this is brainwashing, since its so ineffective. No one sends these kids to reeducation camps for not saying the pledge....even sending to the principle is relatively minor. As was said in a post about this makes a mockery of real brainwashing. And the kids teasing children is irrelevant. They dont tease a child because the love America so much because of the pledge, they tease because he is different and that what kids do.

Who says it's ineffective? Because I see a ton of people who still worship a flag...
20% of people are easily influenced by propaganda, 60% are influenced with a little help(one example of help would be mindless repetition for years on end), and 20% can't be influenced by propaganda.
Just because some people aren't brainwashed, doesn't mean most aren't. And you're likely to find that a higher percentage of people on ATS fall in the 20% that can't be swayed by propaganda, compared to the general population.

reply to post by Ghost375


Your right because no one would waive the flag because they like America....only because they have been "brainwashed" as kids. And I dont know where you got your figures but assuming their true it shows that 80% of people will be slightly affected by the pledge or not at all. Brainwashing isnt making someone like something only slightly more. I still fail to see how any of this is actual brainwashing.

And as for ATS they may not be easily swayed by propaganda, but they dont fall in with facts a whole lot either. Paranoia is just as bad as blind patriotism. Id say they submit to a different type of propaganda. Have you ever talked to an Alex Jones fan. They are just as brain washed. Just goes to show your weak minded people are every where and looking to fall for something

Originally posted by Helig
I can't help but laugh at this notion of the pledge being brain washing, honestly its making a mountain out of a mole hill. Let me guess singing the national anthem at sporting events such as baseball games is also brainwashing? Perhaps its a lack of actual pride in the nation that has led it to its current predicament...

It's ok to have pride in a country that promotes liberty and justice as long as we the people do not blindly follow the few that lead us. We elect a president every four years but there must be people that know everything and brief all the new presidents on most of the secret stuff. I believe those people truly run the system much more so than the president. The pledge helps to unite the people in what America should stand for. It will have to do for now. I am one for world unity. If we could connect the entire world together and become simply the people of Earth, I would be very happy. Seems like now a few powerful people disagree then start wars while brainwashing and spreading tons of propaganda to gain support.

reply to post by onfire49


I was not raised in america yet have seen many brainwashed "patriots" that have been. There is a reason why the elite sport that shiny lapel pin. Obey.

reply to post by Snoopy1978


Ok well just because you have seen many brain washed flag waivers doesnt mean that the pledge had anything to do it. I know plenty of college kids who hate America and have no reason for it really. They said the same pledge every day and it didnt brain wash them

reply to post by beezzer


I don't think you get it.

Children are told to say the pledge on a daily school basis. They are not adults. They are 5-13 year olds. What do 5-13 year old have to do with OWS protestors?

And if an adult in this thread proclaims to be socialist they can still hate the force feeding style of it to children. Straw man argument and ridiculous.

reply to post by onfire49


Maybe they are reaching critical mass after all those years of indoctrination and then suddenly confronted with harsh reality? Would those same college students be more or less violently militant without having recited the pledge since childhood? Would uneducated people be less or more likely to follow authority without having recited the pledge until whichever grade they completed? Would blind patriotism from a society of forced pledgers as a whole tend to push the individual towards or away from government compliance?

PAC put out a paper on this very topic some time ago, this is the into and link for those interested in the law side of it.

Introduction:
This short writing is to determine if you have been brainwashed. Many Americans have no idea who they are. Why, you ask? A secret political scheme had been launched against them. Please understand that the subject matter of this paper may be hard to swallow. Remember that you were told there was an Easter Bunny when you were a child. One could venture that this was only setting the standard for children to buy into the adult lies when they came of age.

www.pacinlaw.org...

more can be found on the law and PAC here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Snoopy1978


Well that certainly does seem to be a lot of what if based on a ton of real evidence. I really congratulate you on your insights. It really helped me see where others are coming from.



O wait a min you just said what if alot and made some guess based on nothing, besides maybe some Americans you know that are to patriotic for your taste

Originally posted by muzzleflash
I will dispute this as well.

Although we can argue it does indeed predate modern fascism, it certainly does not predate imperialism, devotion to the state, despotism, totalitarianism, authoritarianism, or brainwashing techniques.

It did not have a very different meaning, the meaning was blatant and simple. One devotes themselves to serve the state or the despot/dictator, and that was the purpose of salutes historically. A pledge of obedience.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the Pledge, see my previous post on it. But I wanted to make the point that much of the symbolism that went along with it was about something different than what it became, at least in its intent I think. But symbols can be twisted and when you start using those symbols for purposes of blind indoctrination than it gets dangerous. I certainly hear it a lot, heard it a lot more soon after 9/11, with blind adherence to anything the government said to do, blind worship of anything "American" to the point of changing the name of french fries, which was just the most absurd thing ever.

I think blind allegiances like this are attractive to a lot of people because they are easy. A lot of people want to believe in something and once they settle on something to believe in, they can turn off their mind and stop thinking about it and stop taking responsibility for their own actions. But we all know this, don't we.

Originally posted by Helig
I can't help but laugh at this notion of the pledge being brain washing, honestly its making a mountain out of a mole hill. Let me guess singing the national anthem at sporting events such as baseball games is also brainwashing? Perhaps its a lack of actual pride in the nation that has led it to its current predicament...

No, its pride in your country that has led to pointless wars and millions of people dying. Why can't people have pride for being human, for the planet as a whole, instead of being a country. Its such a primitive way of thinking, and always leads to tribal warfare

Originally posted by RainbeauBleu
I refused to say it in kindergarten. I don't have a clue as to why. My parents would have wanted me to do that and conform. I was sent to the principal's office for my offense! I was surprised that it was such a big deal. I'd refuse to say it today.

Same here. I refused to do it as a kid.
Was always a small stressor for me to wonder if I would be confronted for not doing it.

Originally posted by onfire49
reply to post by Snoopy1978

 

Ok well just because you have seen many brain washed flag waivers doesnt mean that the pledge had anything to do it. I know plenty of college kids who hate America and have no reason for it really. They said the same pledge every day and it didnt brain wash them

Its a phase for most.
Mostly due to the rebellious nature of teens and young adults.
But you can bet, what they were taught and trained as kids are with them.
And when they get older, you will see them going back to that training.
That powerful imprint of their childhood.

Originally posted by onfire49


Republic:a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government

If you seriously believe that any of those places you mentioned where really republics you fail civics 101. Almost all of those where/are ruled by strong single leaders or a ruling party of executives that fill all govt power. If they have some sort of representative branch it is largely ceremonial. USSR: While Lenin and Stalin where in power no one else mattered.China very similar under Mao. Iran is run by islamic fundamentalists and as we saw in the last election not run by popular support. Nazi Germany came out of the destruction of th Wiemar Republic, not the culmination of it. You can call anything a republic but that doesnt make it one. North Korea could change its name to "The peoples direct democracy of capitalism" but that doesnt make it so

One can argue the US is already in such a state.
Should the US change its status as a republic?

reply to post by FoosM


The U.S. was at one time a republic and in many ways still is and can be returned to a republic. My point was just because you call something a republic doesnt make it a republic. Those countries use/used it as a way to further the idea that communism or w.e system they used was for the people

I'm another one of the kids who refused to recite the Pledge. I was 5 years old & in kindergarten when I was first exposed to it. I remember we spent a great deal of time at the beginning of the year memorizing it so we could recite it like the older kids in 1st, 2nd, etc grades did. At the time, I remember being excited about learning to do something the big kids were doing. It was some time in 1st grade when something clicked upstairs and I started to feel just plain horrible reciting it. Something in the back of my little 6 year old mind was telling me what I was doing was very wrong, and it made me feel awful saying the Pledge. I stopped reciting it that year, but kept my hand in place, faced the flag & mouthed the words for a while because I was afraid of getting into trouble, until I outright stopped one morning. I got sent to the principal's office for "being difficult", if I remember correctly the wording my teacher used. I was warned that I had to recite the Pledge, just like everyone else, and there was no way out of it. Pretty much sealed it for me, I never recited it again. I decided at SIX that I wasn't going to be forced to participate in something that I felt was very wrong. From then on, I sat quietly at my desk while everyone recited their little words to the rectangular woven fibers on the pole. I would get scolded & reprimanded, the teachers would call home, but the older I got, the more I believed in my feelings.
At the 5th grade open house, my mom flat out told the teacher, "She's not going to recite the Pledge. Good luck trying to make her." He & I got along about as well as cats & dogs that year, all over the Pledge & my not saying it. I was accused of being "disrespectful" and "arrogant".

All throughout middle school, I refused to say the Pledge as well, despite heckling by my peers ("You commie trash!") and pressuring by my teachers. It peaked in 6th grade, and dropped off over the years, but I was still heckled on & off.

I was asked by many teachers over the years why I wouldn't participate in such a treasured American tradition. When I much younger, 5, 6, 7, my response was how it made me feel, "It makes me feel terrible to say, these words make me want to cry & not happy cry." I didn't know WHY they made me feel so bad, but they did. When I got older & was more able to reflect & analyze, I was able to sum it up better, "Because I'm 12/14/16 years old & pledging my life & everything in it to a glorified cloth on a metal pole, for little reason other that calling it an "American tradition" to chant at a cloth representation. What on god's green Earth makes you think when I'm an adult, I'll still live in America, or even like it anymore? Why do I have to make that kind of promise NOW?"
Now that I'm in my late 20's, I've never faltered from the belief I had when I was little, that the Pledge was wrong to say. The only difference is that now I know why it felt so bad: The tendrils of control & forced participation are embedded in it subliminally. It reeks of fascism, veiled as patriotism or nationalism. It's neither, it's a training method for the masses to embed in them a flawed reason for hero-worshipping a stretch of borders no matter what good, or horrors, comes from within them. That's not being a patriot, that's being a good little sheeple.

reply to post by Nyiah


Color me impressed. Always love seeing someone stand up for what they believe is right in the face of opposition. Wish a higher % of the US was like this.... Course we wouldn't have black friday massacres anymore

None of my kids have ever said the pledge after they became part of my family. My oldest asked me point blank what it was and when I told him, he sat quietly then said "That's stupid". My daughter originally was incapable of saying it due to mental issues and now just refuses to say it, partly still due to mental issues (oppositional, defient, etc.). She doesn't fully grasp what pledging allegience means, but she knows that she doesn't like being forced into anything.