Pledge of Allegiance is BRAINWASHING!

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Pledging allegiance to a REPUBLIC does not mean it's good either.

Rome was a "Republic" and it invaded and conquered it's neighbors to no end. Even after the age Caesars, it still fell in and out of Republicanism if even only in name. SPQR - Senatus Populusque Romanus.

What about:
USSR = Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
PRC = People's Republic of China
DPRK = Democratic People’s Republic of Korea
Nazi Germany = culmination of the Weimar Republic
Iran today = Islamic Republic of Iran
Iraq under Saddam = Republic of Iraq
Democratic Kampuchea = Khmer Republic

Republic:a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government

If you seriously believe that any of those places you mentioned where really republics you fail civics 101. Almost all of those where/are ruled by strong single leaders or a ruling party of executives that fill all govt power. If they have some sort of representative branch it is largely ceremonial. USSR: While Lenin and Stalin where in power no one else mattered.China very similar under Mao. Iran is run by islamic fundamentalists and as we saw in the last election not run by popular support. Nazi Germany came out of the destruction of th Wiemar Republic, not the culmination of it. You can call anything a republic but that doesnt make it one. North Korea could change its name to "The peoples direct democracy of capitalism" but that doesnt make it so

Absolutely it is.

Children should not be pledging to any government ideology.

Actually - the original pledge was written by a socialist as a solicitation campaign for a youth magazine.

Government and Christians adopting it as a propaganda tool - - - definitely fits BRAINWASHING!

wether it represents good cause or not is ireelevant. It is used to brainwash young boys nto laying it down for corrupt beaurocrats, and THAT is wrong.

I agree. It is brainwashing for sure. No debate.

On a side note, how dumb is it to pledge allegiance to a flag?

reply to post by Helig

I can't help but laugh at this notion of the pledge being brain washing, honestly its making a mountain out of a mole hill. Let me guess singing the national anthem at sporting events such as baseball games is also brainwashing? Perhaps its a lack of actual pride in the nation that has led it to its current predicament...

I see nothing wrong with national pride, but it should be suggested and not forced.
My only concern with the youth pledging their allegiance to America is that children are not taught that their country is imperfect, and may one day foolishly decide to serve our corrupt leaders and naively kill people in foreign lands.

I find it ironic, that many who have posted here saying the pledge is socialist, and won't say the pledge are the same ones that support OWS and their socialist agenda.

The pledge is bad but "wealth distribution" is good?

I fear for the future sometimes.

Originally posted by beezzer
I find it ironic, that many who have posted here saying the pledge is socialist, and won't say the pledge are the same ones that support OWS and their socialist agenda.

The pledge is bad but "wealth distribution" is good?

I fear for the future sometimes.

And yet you support a Pledge of Allegience created from socialist roots and not the supposed socialist agenda of OWS?

Pot. Kettle. ??

In any case, the origins are irrelevant (apologies to muzzleflash). History, in this case, is less relevant than substance. Children should be taught to honor their words and only speak things they mean and only make pledges, promises, and commitments that they understand and will follow through on. And noone should be COMPELLED to pledge allegience to anything. After all, a good chunk of what our current economic fiasco is centered on is people making loan commitments they either did not understand or never intended to honor.

Besides, as I said before, a Pledge of Allegiance is unrelated to learning reading, writing, math, etc. It has no place in schools.

reply to post by rogerstigers


Not at all. Nothing wrong with being patriotic.
The narrative has shifted to the pledge being a form of brainwashing to a socialist chant.

Neither is the case.

Say it, don't say it; whatever.

Just don't stop others from wanting to show pride, patriotism, and honor to their country.

reply to post by rogerstigers


Yeah, we should get rid of the pledge at school, just like how the 10 commandments is out, and ethics is out and morality is out.

Give everyone a friggin trophy for participating, a box of condoms, and send them on their way.

That's worked out real swell for this generation.

reply to post by beezzer


I actually have no issue with people saying the pledge, if they want to. I hope in the brief interactions we have had on the board here, you can tell my biggest pet peeve is hypocrisy. People should always mean what they say and say what they mean when it comes to pledges, promises, and commitments.

I agree, we are drifting from the brainwashing thing a bit... I am not 100% that it meets the definition of brainwashing, but I could be wrong. I still feel it is inappropriate in school, but I am being redundant now.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by rogerstigers

 

Yeah, we should get rid of the pledge at school, just like how the 10 commandments is out, and ethics is out and morality is out.

Give everyone a friggin trophy for participating, a box of condoms, and send them on their way.

That's worked out real swell for this generation.

I think you misunderstand. I think the public school system is beyond bad now and has been for many generations. Even in my generation, it was on its way down.

But I do not see that the 10 commandments have anything to do with a general education. You want to teach your kids the 10 commandments, fine, teach them in church and home. The pledge should also be taught at home. Ethics should be taught at school based on CULTURAL norms. Morals are the responsibility of parents, family, and neighbors (remember when we used to talk to our neighbors?).

I can rant on forever about how the public education system SHOULD be handled, but that is off topic. Maybe I should write a thread on that. *shrug*

why the heck would anyone make a pledge to a flag ffs lol

reply to post by beezzer


It sounds like you'd prefer this vision: force every child to recite a jingoistic, nationalistic screed when they're too young to understand what they're saying; force religion and the bible down their throat; give them a gun at 16 and send them off to murder some brown people in a far away country and then God bless the USA!

We owe our allegiance to our fellow humans, not to a flag.

reply to post by rogerstigers
I tend to exaggerate sometimes to make a point.
People are upset about the Pledge, but have no problems reciting mantras at socialist rally's.

People get upset about the pledge in school, yet applaud condom distribution.

People call the pledge brainwashing yet the responses have been almost as one, citing dogma instead of an actual argument.

Taking a few last breaths of pure oxygen, pulling on my electrically heated thermal underwear and preparing myself to attempt to scale Mount Molehill!

Wow! I can see my feet from up here! The ants.. they look almost like ants!


*****

First, the word "brainwashing" does not mean what you think it means. It is like calling it "child abuse" which may work for rhetoric but at the same time minimizes real abuse.

Brainwashing is not an expectation to conform to community standards.

Who here was "brainwashed" to wear blue jeans? Is it "natural?" Are we hard wired to wear blue jeans or were you brainwashed? You do own blue jeans, don't you?

See?
******

Second,

When the Pledge was created-- and even in my youth in the 1960's, patriotism was acted out by the community.

In times of war, when your Dad was in harms way, and your brother killed; the community drawing together was important.

In Vietnam, the opposite began to happen, "Yeah, well I'm glad your baby-killer brother is dead!"

Somewhere between blind patriotism and blind self-righteousness is sighted reason. Some altruism and some people are worth fighting for and risking one's life for. Some causes are not worth any effort at all-- and most are somewhere in between.

*****
In 2011, the Pledge seems archaic, but is not not now, nor was it ever about, "God bless Johnson and Johnson and God bless General Dynamics." That was funny in the video-- but not reality-- not historically accurate.

Ceremony and ritual are something humans do-- and apparently need. Ribbon cutting for a new bridge, releasing doves to start a sporting event, floats at a homecoming parade, napkin in your lap before your plate is served, saying "Hello." when you answer a phone, saying "Goodbye" (Good/God be with you) when departing and so on. They do not mean much-- but they are comforting when being shared within a culture.

A Christian Socialist can get something right (at least for his own time and culture) now and then-- it does not make him or any other Christian Socialist the most evil man in the world.

Conformity becomes a big issues somewhere between childhood and adulthood. We want to "be our own person" and yet want to be accepted. So while demanding that her mother let her wear that t-shirt to school because she "doesn't want to be like everyone else," the wise Mother knows that her daughter's friends started wearing t-shirts and it is not about non-conformity, but fitting in. The daughter is not making it up-- the daughter is conflicted and the conflict is complex.

So it is here.

It sounds like every one of us thought there was something "off" about the Pledge when we first exposed to it, and it sounds like all of us could live without it. Probably time for that ceremony to have run its course and dismiss it.

But when the rhetoric goes to "Brainwashing" and "Christian Socialist" we assure resistance, and probably another three decades of a mostly meaningless little ceremony.

*****

Whew! Now that I am safely back down on terra firma I can look up and see the ceiling from here. And to think, just moments ago, I thought I could almost touch the ceiling if I put my hand up!

P.S. "practically forced" like the phrase, "almost late" means NOT forced, and NOT late. Use rhetoric with care.

Originally posted by wirehead
We owe our allegiance to our fellow humans, not to a flag.

Hey if thats what you want to believe go ahead. As most people have missed here (but the post above did a great job with) you arent really forced to say the pledge. You can go ahead and pledge your support to all humans and no one can stop you. I prefer nationalism, thats just me though. To each his own. We arent brain washing anyone and people are free to make their own choices

reply to post by Imlookingthroughyou


I like what they guy says near the start of the Zeitgeist: Moving Forward film:

I'D RATHER PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE WORLD AND EVERYONE ON IT

reply to post by muzzleflash


In my kid's elementary school in TX, if you dont stand up and say it you get sent to the principal's office and the parents called. How embarrassing is that for a kid? Also there's the manufactured peer pressure of being the only one not reciting and looking like the odd weirdo and being made fun of. Furthermore, making kids that have no clue what theyre pledging recite that stuff since early childhood sure is forced indoctrination. Give me a break, pledging an oath to a flag. So when the daily, since early childhood, lobotomized now adult sees the flag on tanks and uniforms, will he have a greater tendency to obey? You bet. The system is about structure of control at all levels. Blind "patriotism" is no different than religious fanatism and as such is a cancer for humankind and this planet as a whole.