Pledge of Allegiance is BRAINWASHING!

Originally posted by Snoopy1978
reply to post by beezzer

 

Children in public schools are FORCED to say it. Your argument is pointless and invalid as usual.

That's not exactly true however, for example many Jehovah's Witnesses do not say it and remain seated during the procedure.

I remember when I was in school there was a kid who's parents instructed him to not say it and remain seated. Of course many kids insulted him and ridiculed him for it, and I found it quite strange myself.

I honestly felt he was nearly traitorous for that. I suppose I was indoctrinated and "part of the team" at that time. But since then I have learned the folly of my ways and I actually support this kid's choice to not say it and I believe he was perhaps one of the biggest American patriots among us.

reply to post by Imlookingthroughyou


Having grown up in an age when each school day began with the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge of Alegiance, I can attest to the outcome.

I can read a 450 page novel/book in a single night... remembering most of what I read.
I can write with pen and paper in a way the is legible and does not require major erasers to misspell words that were already misspelled.
I am not a convicted felon.
All of my kids are grown and none of them are convicted felons.
I don't add the letter 's' to the word 'craft' or 'cattle' to describe more than one.
I know the difference between the words 'then' and 'than'.

Oh yes, I was indeed corrupted by the pledge and the old Lord's Prayer. Thank goodness our kids today grow up without any of that...

Nope,its just showing patriotism for your country.

Originally posted by onfire49
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Like I said before I think its out of place....but as it has developed I dont think its evil or there is something behind it. If anyone actually really takes it that seriously thats fine for them but most people just do it every morning because its part of the routine just like getting on the school bus. I would be very very surprised to see any kid older than grade school say they felt like they loved America more after saying it. Its not brainwashing if it has no effect. And I understand the problems with the nazi ties but other than that there isnt anything wrong I can see behind it. If you dont wanna say it dont say. 9/10 times no one will say anything and the one time they do its usually just an over zealous teacher and nothing will come of it.

So the indisputable facts that it was created by a socialist and originally utilized the infamous Nazi salute doesn't bother you at all? It doesn't cause you to re-evaluate your position?

Perhaps it does have a major effect on people after all?

An interesting point about cult indoctrination is that when someone rejects the process, they are typically vilified by the group, and I know as a hard fact that the kid in my 5th grade class who did not participate was vilified by the other classmates in a direct and severe manner.

Originally posted by Viking9019
Nope,its just showing patriotism for your country.

Please review the cold hard facts revealed in this post on the previous page.

Is it really patriotism? I don't think so. It's anti-American at it's roots.

People should be pledging allegiance to the Constitution and that which it stands instead...

In 1940 the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case, Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry, could be compelled to swear the Pledge. A rash of mob violence and intimidation against Jehovah's Witnesses followed the ruling.In 1943 the Supreme Court reversed its decision, ruling in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that public school students are not required to say the Pledge, concluding that "compulsory unification of opinion" violates the First Amendment.[15] In a later opinion, the Court held that students are also not required to stand for the Pledge.[16]

Yeah that sure is patriotic isn't it? Pro-America?

To commit violence and intimidation against others for thinking differently than you?

This is cult brainwashing pure and simple. It meets all of the criteria.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

That's the national socialist version.

Perhaps it would be more in line with the principles of the Foundation of this nation if it read more like:

" I will defend the rights of all peoples, and enforce the Constitution which protects them, with liberty and justice for all."

Something like that would be way more acceptable. I still find issues with the fact we would be using it in a repetitive manner, but at least it would make more sense.

No where in this pledge is the Constitution mentioned, but instead it is a pledge to the symbolism of the state. No wonder we have epidemics of mindless devotion to the government.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Well I will take your word that it was created by a nazi, I dont have the time to look it up. I am just saying that the idea of the pledge of allegiance isnt a huge concern. It actually mentions the constitution which most of the kids in our world couldnt care less about because they have been raised in the age of "the constitution is a racist document" and "sometimes we just need to do things that are unconstitutional because we are the government and we love you". Most people will never know that it was written by a nazi so that fact really become irrelevant. My major point is that I dont think it really develops a cult like following of the U.S. or anything. I just dont believe that American kids really care that much. Patriotism isnt all bad though.

As for your kid, that sucks but guess what? If it wasnt that he/she would be teased for some other reason. Thats what young kids do, they tease people who are different. If all the kids were proclaiming their love for space aliens and your child said thats dumb he/she would be teased. It doesnt mean that the other children would kill humans or swear allegiance if their was an alien invasion. Thats the main problem with ATS, everyone is looking for the next rise of the Nazi Party, or they read way to much into things.

A group of U.S. schoolchildren performing the old-style Bellamy salute

Children performing the Bellamy salute to the flag of the United States, Hawaii, March 1941.

This doesn't bother folks?
I am feeling there is some major cognitive dissonance going on here...

Bellamy Salute

The Bellamy salute is the salute described by Francis Bellamy (1855–1931) to accompany the American Pledge of Allegiance, which he had authored. During the period when it was used with the Pledge of Allegiance, it was sometimes known as the "flag salute". During the 1920s and 1930s, Italian fascists and Nazis adopted salutes which were similar in form, resulting in controversy over the use of the Bellamy salute in the United States. It was officially replaced by the hand-over-heart salute when Congress officially amended the Flag Code on 22 December 1942.

This goes back further to the "Roman Salute", although there is some controversy over this.
Please read the Roman Salute wiki

reply to post by muzzleflash


Your not going to convince anyone this is the seeds of fascism. I understand you dont want your child saying it so they dont. However, being teased by other children isnt the same as what would be happen in a fascist regime. If this was truly fascism or brainwashing, your child would have already informed the secret police on you and you'd be hearing a knock on the door before they kicked it down. And no those pictures dont bother me. A bunch of kids giving Hitler salutes isnt scary. If you could show me they all grew up to be manic's or govt assassins then maybe but other wise its just a sign of the times.

reply to post by Imlookingthroughyou

The Pledge is creepy. I of course accepted it as a child, though at some point the "under God" part really started to bother me, simply because it was an imposition of a particular religious point of view on students who don't know better than to object to its inclusion (which came at a later date, it wasn't in the original pledge). Growing up Jewish, it didn't matter much to me then, but as I started to develop my own ideas and started really understanding the Bill of Rights and the 1st Amendment, it became a big problem for me. I didn't really become an agnostic until my college years, I kind of wish I'd developed that position earlier and tried to take a stand on the "under God" line back then. I remember some kids really getting into it over that line. In most teachers' classes they would say that if you didn't want to say the "under God" line that was fine and your own business. I guess that's the easiest way to diffuse that issue on the teacher/student level.

Originally posted by onfire49
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Your not going to convince anyone this is the seeds of fascism. I understand you dont want your child saying it so they dont. However, being teased by other children isnt the same as what would be happen in a fascist regime. If this was truly fascism or brainwashing, your child would have already informed the secret police on you and you'd be hearing a knock on the door before they kicked it down. And no those pictures dont bother me. A bunch of kids giving Hitler salutes isnt scary. If you could show me they all grew up to be manic's or govt assassins then maybe but other wise its just a sign of the times.

Of course I cannot convince you, you didn't even read my posts hardly at all, you just glanced and assumed you could psychically interpret them without bothering to pay much attention.

My child? No where in any of these posts did I mention MY Children. I mentioned OTHER kids I knew when I was in school, yes.

And yes, a bunch of kids giving the 'Roman Salute' aka the 'Fascist salute' is slightly bothersome. It reveals what was really behind this entire practice in the first place.

Also you proved in an earlier post you are simply not reading, you said you won't bother researching my claim that it was written by a Nazi. I never said it was written by a Nazi I said it was written by a Christian Socialist, which I proved with indisputable facts.

I cannot convince someone who has already made up their mind and is not open to new information that contradicts their prior position. You are right about that.

You then proceed to create a straw man argument that "anyone who is a Nazi grows up to become an assassin or maniac" which is untrue, there are tons of cases of Nazis who did neither of those things, since of course it consisted of an entire nation of peoples.

I advise that you refrain from further grave digging, because I can eviscerate your statements at every turn.

Originally posted by onfire49
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Your not going to convince anyone this is the seeds of fascism.

Also I don't need to convince anyone.

The facts will convince anyone with an open mind just fine all by themselves.

Indisputable facts, mind you.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

The Bellamy salute is the salute described by Francis Bellamy (1855–1931) to accompany the American Pledge of Allegiance, which he had authored. During the period when it was used with the Pledge of Allegiance, it was sometimes known as the "flag salute". During the 1920s and 1930s, Italian fascists and Nazis adopted salutes which were similar in form, resulting in controversy over the use of the Bellamy salute in the United States. It was officially replaced by the hand-over-heart salute when Congress officially amended the Flag Code on 22 December 1942.

Before the rise of fascism, many of the ancient forms and symbols of the Roman Republic were seen as symbolic of our republican democracy here in the U.S. One very common symbol was the fasces, from which the word "fascist" comes. Fasces were bundles of wooden sticks that were emblematic of the Roman republican system. When at peace, the fasces were just bundles of sticks, when the Roman Republic was at war, they added an axe head to the bundle to turn it into an emblematic weapon.

You can see a fasces bundle on the back of the U.S. dime (10 cent piece). It also appears in a lot of pre-World War II public government sculpture (Lincoln's arm wrests in the Lincoln Memorial are designed as fasces). That symbology predates the rise of fascism, but it's since fallen out of favor. It had a very different meaning for U.S. democracy than what it came to mean after the 20th Century.

Originally posted by neo96
Yes god forbid people people understand that this is a nation that is a republic and our rights come from God not Government and every man woman and child that lives in this country is created equal

Yes they are evil incarnat wonder what's next buring flags?

No wait too late.

Meh

Are you open to the facts ?

Post 1
Post 2
Post 3
Post 4
Post 5

By the way burning the flag is an act of actual American patriotism, especially considering those flags are created in China...

reply to post by muzzleflash


I am sorry I misread your statement about the 5th grade child I thought It said my 5th grade kid not a kid in my 5th grade. However, that doesnt invalidate my point that it doesnt matter that other kids treated him harshly for his views. My whole point in my original post (that you seem to ignore) is that its not brainwashing because most people dont take the pledge serious after 6th grade. I know you didnt reference the Nazi's directly it just seemed thats where you were going with your posts that's why I used the term Nazi. I wont research because I dont have the time. I respond to your posts on my study breaks and I spend my free time for learning on things that interest me...which doesnt happen to be the history of the pledge of allegiance.

The straw man argument is one of the most obnoxious in the conspiracy world because people use it like like liberals use the label racist. I also was referring to the kids in your pictures not the Nazis. Once again my central point is the pledge is pretty harmless. I was saying that I dont think it has any affect on the children.

As for your warning....I appreciate the friendly warning. However, you may have pointed out flaws in my quick responses yes, eviscerated me at every turn no. And even if you had, so be it. I'll still debate you, its a fun exercise, even though the craziest ideas get the most credit on ATS. Even if you beat me, I'll live. I can do alright without the kudos of alot of people who are borderline schizophrenic and see patterns in everything

Why would anyone thinking blindly pledging allegiance to a flag to be patriotic? You really could be pledging allegiance to ANYTHING.

And why are children subject to saying this DAILY on school days for YEARS? It is indoctrination. Someone in Elementary/Middle school should not be nearly forced to say something they can't even grasp the concept of. We are talking about 5-13 year olds giving pledges to the state. This is NOT American at all. It is something straight out of Nazi Germany and North Korea.

Originally posted by LifeInDeath
That symbology predates the rise of fascism, but it's since fallen out of favor. It had a very different meaning for U.S. democracy than what it came to mean after the 20th Century.

I will dispute this as well.

Although we can argue it does indeed predate modern fascism, it certainly does not predate imperialism, devotion to the state, despotism, totalitarianism, authoritarianism, or brainwashing techniques.

It did not have a very different meaning, the meaning was blatant and simple. One devotes themselves to serve the state or the despot/dictator, and that was the purpose of salutes historically. A pledge of obedience.

The act of reciting a pledge to the state or dictator predates this practice as well, and served the same purpose. It is indoctrination into a belief system, and that is why it is targeted at children because they are blank slates and are easily molded and controlled, and most vulnerable or susceptible to suggestions.

Do we need to get into the imperialist history of the United States particularly to drive this point home as well? About how our nation historically justified the slaughter and tyranny over countless native Americans, drove them from their lands, all for the mighty Manifest Destiny?

What about the rampages of the Spanish American War? Our actions during the Opium Wars? The invasion of China during the Boxer Rebellion? The US interventions in South America?

I haven't even mentioned the countless conflicts that have taken place After WW2 where we justify going all around the world enforcing our economic and military dominance, invading others lands, stealing their resources, enslaving them to our corporations, etc.

It's imperialism over and over and over.

Oh that pledge is for sure a form of indoctrination. That salute means something very important.

reply to post by beezzer


Other people that want to? You mean CHILDREN as young as age 5? Who are practically forced to do it and inclined even more so from peer pressure. The pledge is generally said from kindergarten to the 8th grade. Last time I checked children are extremely open to suggestion and can't really make rational decisions for themselves. Minors can't enter legal contracts for a reason...

Pledging allegiance to a REPUBLIC does not mean it's good either.

Rome was a "Republic" and it invaded and conquered it's neighbors to no end. Even after the age Caesars, it still fell in and out of Republicanism if even only in name. SPQR - Senatus Populusque Romanus.

What about:
USSR = Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
PRC = People's Republic of China
DPRK = Democratic People’s Republic of Korea
Nazi Germany = culmination of the Weimar Republic
Iran today = Islamic Republic of Iran
Iraq under Saddam = Republic of Iraq
Democratic Kampuchea = Khmer Republic

I could go on and on. Just because it's a Republic doesn't mean it cannot be corrupted and converted into utter tyranny. In fact it appears the majority of some of the most brutal and horrific regimes in history went under the guise of a Republic.