Behold the Coming of Daniel's Ram and Goat!

Let me give you another possible explanation of "Greece" in this prophecy. As verse 2 states the prophecy of Daniel is a retelling of a VISION that Daniel had. Also in Chap 11-2 there is another reference to Greece in the prophecy. But in order to grasp this concept you need to read the explanations of the prophesies and remember when the visions happened. 500 BC approximately. This is before the existence of the Grecian empire and the Romans.

Also Daniel was told that these were end time prophesies. So what would the end time be? Look at the 70 week prophesy of Daniel 9. The 70 weeks of the prophesy are broken up into 3 groups. 7 and 62 and 1. As it appears that the 1 week never happened then you can draw only one conclusion. The one week is still a future event.

But to get back to my main point here what I believe what Daniel is doing by calling the goat Greece is that it's actually not the Greece of Europe. Rather what he is try to say is that the goat looked Greek to him. It's whats known as a simile. The thing being described resembled Greece. But it's so far in the future from him he can't be sure it's actually Greece.

So what you are looking for is just before the end times of Daniel's 70th week in verse 11-2 you are looking for a country that looked Greek to Daniel being attacked by a group of kings/nations out of what was "Persia" the middle east.

In return that nation counterattacks and conquers 2 of those kings/nations and then conquers "Persia".

So if you think about it Daniel 11-2 is a perfect description of the events surrounding the 9-11 attack on Washington DC. As head goat. With all the Greco-Roman architecture.

You believe in intelligent design. You understand that the Law of Man is built upon the same belief. That which rides is coming. The contract of man is to be re-written. The prophets of the digital age are lost when the power goes out.

reply to post by ntech

I see two problems with your scenario:

• Daniel never described the goat as Grecian; in both cases, the interpreting angel specified the goat as being the king of Grecia, which specifically means in Hebrew the land we know as Greece. The meaning comes not from the architecture or the complexion of the inhabitants, but from the fact that Greece was a major producer of wine at the time. One could loosely say it meant "the land of wine".
  
  
• The land of Grecia did indeed exist around 500 BC. This was the period between the Archaic and Classical Greek eras. I believe you are referring to the Greek empire, which did not come about until much later.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by MegasAlexandros
That is a plausible interpretation, however I can tell you my historical interpretation. The ram, is Alexander the Great, as he wore ram's horns on one of his helmets. Alexander conquered all of Persia and ended up in India. He then turned back and died a few years after. His kingdom (horns) became split by his successors and they in turn were conquered by the Italian tribes who banded together as one, the Roman Republic.

Do you realize that there are two types of language in the Bible; Figurative and Literal. Anytime, you see "key phrases" like the following, you will know that the language is figurative.

Figurative Markers:
"in the spirit"
"upon my bead"
"in slumber"
"like unto"

It is very important to realize these markers. Also, know that the Word of Yahweh (God) translates itself. Everything in the Bible explains itself. Just because you say that Alexander had a horn on his helmet does not make him the one talked about in this prophecy.

reply to post by NoSoup4U

We have to treat the ram as Alexander in the first instance, because the angelic figure talking to Daniel identifies it as the king of Greece, attacking the kings of Media and Persia. The historical parallel is too obvious to be ignored altogether.

Sorry, posted this in wrong thread.
I've got a ram-and-goat thread of my own, to which I was adding, and clicked on the wrong name in MyATS.

reply to post by TheRedneck


I hate to beat on old threads but I noticed the reply and thought I would answer.

We are told in Daniel 11-2 that the people of Persia rise up against the realm of "Greece". But being this prophecy is based on a vision of the future per Daniel 10 and 12 then I would pose this. The term "Greece" is not a specific location. Rather since the vision is from so far in the future from Daniel had to resort to a simile. "Greece" is a description. Not a location. The area attacked looked like it was Greek to Daniel. And I would pose that the 9-11 attack on Washington DC is a perfect fit for the prophecy.

Then if you go to Daniel 8 you are told that the king of "Greece" conquers 2 nations or kings in the middle east. Afghanistan and Iraq being attacked fits the prophecy.

So based on the above then if Daniel's prophesies were to run again before and during the end times then it would appear he has a 3 for 3 record so far. The 4th event being "Persia" being conquered. Which if you are following middle eastern news is quite the possibility for the next couple of months.

Also there is the Matthew 24 problems to look at. If the creation of the state of Israel in 1948 was an end time event as predicted in the bible then we have a problem. The generation of Matthew 24 is going to be at least 64 years old in May. According to Psalms 90-10 a lifetime of a person is 70-80 years. 80 years will be May of 2028. The Apocalypse is running out of time. The last possible date for the 7 year agreement of Daniel 9 is May of 2021. The 7 year agreement has to be signed in the next 9 years.

The preliminaries have to be over with soon so Daniel 11-5 and 6 to happen. And here's another Matthew 24 problem.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Is the mention of the carcass a Daniel 8 reference to the ram??? And are we entering the days of the tribulation of the carcass??? And is verse 29 a alternate description of the 6th seal of Revelation?

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I am not a bible pusher, tell me i am interested, so tell me about the ram and the goat and how it relates to danial.

Originally posted by NoSoup4U

Originally posted by MegasAlexandros
That is a plausible interpretation, however I can tell you my historical interpretation. The ram, is Alexander the Great, as he wore ram's horns on one of his helmets. Alexander conquered all of Persia and ended up in India. He then turned back and died a few years after. His kingdom (horns) became split by his successors and they in turn were conquered by the Italian tribes who banded together as one, the Roman Republic.

Do you realize that there are two types of language in the Bible; Figurative and Literal. Anytime, you see "key phrases" like the following, you will know that the language is figurative.

Figurative Markers:
"in the spirit"
"upon my bead"
"in slumber"
"like unto"

It is very important to realize these markers. Also, know that the Word of Yahweh (God) translates itself. Everything in the Bible explains itself. Just because you say that Alexander had a horn on his helmet does not make him the one talked about in this prophecy.

there are several examples to the bible, which do you think is accurate? my child.

reply to post by TheRedneck

The focus of Daniel 8 is Antiochus Epiphanes who ruled the Seleucid Empire from 175 BC until his death in 164 BC.

Originally posted by ntech
We are told in Daniel 11-2 that the people of Persia rise up against the realm of "Greece". But being this prophecy is based on a vision of the future per Daniel 10 and 12 then I would pose this. The term "Greece" is not a specific location. Rather since the vision is from so far in the future from Daniel had to resort to a simile. "Greece" is a description. Not a location. The area attacked looked like it was Greek to Daniel. And I would pose that the 9-11 attack on Washington DC is a perfect fit for the prophecy.

I have to point out a couple of things.
First, Daniel did not actually see any future landscapes, so that he could look at them and compare them to Greece. He saw a ram and a goat, and he saw a bronze glorious figure which explained them; the statement that the goat is Greece comes from the angel, not from Daniel.

Secondly, you have got the "attack" in Daniel the wrong way round. It is Greece, the small and unimportant country, which attacks the dominant, all-conquering, state of Persia.Therefore if you want to identify 9/11 with that attack, that identifies America with Persia. If current history is following Daniel, the present day must be one stage earlier in the process than you realise.

reply to post by DISRAELI


That's true for Daniel 8. But. Go back and read Daniel 10, 11, and 12. According to Daniel 10 what he saw was a great vision. What Daniel 11 is was a retelling of the vision he had. And then in verses 11-6 and 11-40 he tells us this nugget of information.

11-6
And in the end of years they shall join themselves together;

11-40
And at the time of the end

And even Daniel 8 makes this statement.
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Both prophesies of Daniel state they are to happen at the time of the end. So when is the time of the end???

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

According to Jesus Christ the end of the world happens after his gospel had reached all the nations/tribes/ethnic groups of the world.

Also consider Genesis 48 and 49.

49
1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Shiloh is considered a name for the end times. Or a person in the end times. What is happening here in the end days is that the offspring of Jacob/Israel was eventually to become nations. And the children through Ephraim was to become a multitude of nations.

That simply didn't happen by the first century AD and the events you attribute to fulfilling Daniel 8 and 11.

So your interpretation of Daniel 8 has a major problem. It simply didn't occur in the time of the end. Those events could not have fulfilled the prophesies of Daniel. They happened at the wrong time. Daniel's prophesies are future events.

Or put simply. It looked like Christmas. It smelled and tasted like Christmas. But the calendar said it was July 4. It wasn't Christmas.

reply to post by ntech

"Greece" is a description. Not a location. The area attacked looked like it was Greek to Daniel.

As Disraeli pointed out, Daniel was told Greece; he never saw Greece. I thought as you did when I first read this passage. It only made sense to me that a herd acting as one would be the USA... but the Bible does not mold well into personal desires.

Straight from the interpreting angel's mouth:

Dan 8:20: The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21: And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king.
Dan 8:22: Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Source: www.blueletterbible.org...

The verses in Daniel 11 refer to these four kings that stand up in place of the rough goat. If this was referring to the USA, it still could not happen until the USA was broken into four separate countries. Secession was tried before and failed, and I cannot see it happening again (at least not without major bloodshed). Europe, however, has a much looser bond between nations in the European Union, and talk surfaces regularly about countries wishing to dissolve their union.

And the mention of the goat's horn being the "first king" is telling as well. Americans would never accept an ultimate ruler, while many European countries either have had monarchies in the past or actually still do (UK)! I see the adoption of an ultimate ruler in the EU as much more likely than in the USA. Indeed, I can see this move as a last-ditch attempt to save the EU... one that will obviously fail according to this prophesy.

Then if you go to Daniel 8 you are told that the king of "Greece" conquers 2 nations or kings in the middle east. Afghanistan and Iraq being attacked fits the prophecy.

Afghanistan and Iraq never fit the description of the ram as pressing outside their own boundaries. So far as I can tell, Afghanistan never conquered anyone, and Iraq never did save for Kuwait (which was all about a perceived injustice by Saddam Hussein, not a desire to conquer). Therefore Iraq and Afghanistan cannot be the ram. A future Iran and an unnamed comrade perhaps? Syria?

All that said, I cannot find fault with your timeline. 9 years to go, and ironically enough the first 9 years of the new Mayan long count, a time period that was considered to be a harbinger of massive change and a time of great evil in their culture. A lot can happen in these 9 years, and I believe it will. Not only will we see the events described in Daniel and Revelation come to pass as prophesied, but we will see other events that coincide to make them possible: the complete destruction of the USA as a military power for one, as I see no other way we would not be involved in such an epic global struggle.

TheRedneck

reply to post by ntech

I would also like to take a quick moment to thank you for resurrecting this thread. I believe as time continues, it will become more and more relevant.

Thank you.

TheRedneck

reply to post by ntech

There is something you are not noticing, because of the slightly artificial chapter divisions at the beginning and end of ch11.
This is the fact that Daniel himself is not speaking in ch11.
If you look back to ch10, the angel begins speaking in ch10 v20. Then EVERYTHING from that point down to ch12 v4 is the voice of the angel explaining things to Daniel. Daniel himself sees nothing except a sequence of symbolic figures and an angel.

Also you are misunderstanding my approach. I am not necessarily denying future fulfilment. What I am suggesting is that if there is a future fulfilment, it would be one modelled on the historical fulfilment.
Using an analogy; many commentators identify Daniel's "prince" with the notorious Antiochus Epiphanes. I half-agree with them, but would add that Daniel is also talking about a future and final hostile king modelled on Antiochus. Similarly many commentators identify Revelation's Beast with Nero. I half-agree with them, but would add that Revelation is also talking about a future and final Beast modelled on Nero and Antiochus.
Similarly for the middle of Daniel, what I'm doing is using the undeniable parallels in ancient history as a guideline for interpretation in a future sense. All this comes out more clearly in my own "Daniel's Greece and Persia" thread.

reply to post by DISRAELI

The concept of historical repetition is one I have noticed with some interest. More than once I have seen what could have been prophesy save for a few details... a good example is the proposal of Iraq/Afghanistan as the ram in Daniel. It actually fits on first glance, but too many details are missing.

Maybe there is more to the "history repeats itself" mantra than imagination.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

I still haven't decided how much I favour historical repetition.
However, I'm moving towards the conclusion that IF we're going to look for it, status in the world (e.g. being a dominant power) is probably more relevant than geographical location.
At least that's the way I treat "Babylon" and "Rome" in Revelation.

It is talking about Alexander the Great and the Macedonian Empire and the collapse of the Persian Empire under his crusade.

Persian Empire - That has pushed Northward, Westward and Southward.



Greek Empire that has absorbed the vast majority of the Persian Empire into it's own, rendering it's horns broken, king's no longer in place.



However what puzzles me is the phrase at the end when Gabriel is speaking to Daniel and warns him it is from the future at the end, was that event a pre-cursor that set up some sort of event that is still yet to happen? or does it have another meaning?

Cant you all see that this is all a distraction? People spend all their time on stuff like this, while ignoring reality. It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the bible contradicts itself and cannot be trusted, yet so many people base their entire lives upon it and argue over details and interpretations. The real message is indeed buried in there - and that is what the character known as Jesus basically said live and let live, and love your neighbour. Thats all it really comes down to. If everyone followed that simple advice this world would be a much better place. But unfortunately whoever compiled the bible has achieved their goal of dividing the human race, and causing the false prophecy held within it to be self-fulfilling by people with delusions of grandiure.

reply to post by TheGreatest

Since the angel in ch12 talks about waiting to the end, the implication is that, at the very least, the end of ch11 is also about the future. That is, there comes a point when the vision is not just talking about the infamous king Antiochus but also about a future "hostile king" following a similar pattern of behaviour.
So the question being pondered here is how far back into Daniel we take that "double fulfilment" idea/