It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Behold the Coming of Daniel's Ram and Goat!

page: 1
9
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 04:19 PM
link   
Some time back I posted my interpretation of a section of the Book of Revelation, titled Behold, the black horse of Revelation! For those who may not have had the opportunity to read it, please take a moment now to do so; the same assumptions are valid for this thread as well. This can actually be seen as a sort of 'part 2' to that thread, but one that deserves its own limelight.

While future prophesy can be found throughout the Bible, much of it has already come to pass and therefore can be seen as less of prophesy but record of previous prophecy. Two books, however, appear to contain prophesy that has not come to pass yet: Revelation, written by John while exiled on the Isle of Patmos, and Daniel, written by a prophet during the time of his captivity in Babylon.

Daniel was a true prophet in every sense of the word. He received visions, interpreted dreams, and over time became a counselor to the ruler Belshazzar. The following comes from Chapter 8:

Dan 8:1
    In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
Dan 8:2
    And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.
Dan 8:3
    Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
Dan 8:4
    I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
Dan 8:5
    And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
Dan 8:6
    And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
Dan 8:7
    And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

It is at first glance a straightforward story: two rulers (the ram) who begin to war against their neighboring countries, and are finally thwarted by a greater power (the he-goat). But as I read this some time back, it somehow appeared there was more to this story. The Hebrew words translated as 'he goat' were my first clue there might be more to this story than meets the eye. The words used are tsaphiyr [ צָפִיר ], which is a masculine noun (actually meaning 'billy goat'), and `ez [ עֵז ], which is a feminine noun meaning 'nanny goat'. Now how can a goat be both male and female?

The answer is in the root of the words. 'Ez is taken from a feminine word meaning 'strong' which can also be used as a male word in the plural sense:

From H5810; a she goat (as strong), but masculine in plural (which also is used elliptically for goats' hair)

This means that in the context used, Daniel did not see a male/female goat, but rather a herd of male goats acting as one. The moment I caught this, I immediately made a mental connection to the United States, a group of nations (states) acting as one nation, and of course the major superpower in all the recent major wars. That's what happens when you allow your own inner pride to overwrite your thoughts.

But it's not the United States. It is a group of nations acting as one, but a different group. Here's why:

Later in Daniel, the symbolism of the vision is explained by an angel. From later in Chapter 8:

Dan 8:19
    And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Dan 8:20
    The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21
    And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

'Grecia' does indeed mean the land today known as Greece. So we now have a different national union as the goat: the European Union. But then we have something happening in world news that appears to thwart this prophecy:

Greece is predicting that its budget deficit will decrease sharply next year, even as its economy continues to contract and unemployment increases.

The interim Greek government unveiled its 2012 austerity budget to Parliament Friday. It says the spending plan must be adopted soon for the country to secure an $11 billion installment from last year's international bailout to help it avoid a default.
Source: www.voanews.com...

How is it possible for the EU to become this great superpower when the very nation explicitly mentioned in prophesy is undergoing such severe economic turmoil, to the point of becoming unsustainable as a nation? The answer has to be that something will happen to catapult the EU back to favored nation status. The only viable answer I can find is the exact same thing that has kept the United States on top economically until now: the dollar as the International Reserve Currency. Anyone who has read anything I have lately posted knows the position I have been taking on this, and if anyone has missed it, it can be found in two threads: Iraq, bailouts, AGW, Iran, JFK, and the FED... one snake, many heads and Plan C: World War III.

The bottom line is that oil is not the real problem behind all the conspiracies involving foreign actions on the part of the USA; the real problem is maintaining the viability of the US dollar as the International Reserve Currency. Already there are cries to replace it, and while the Euro has been suggested, the majority of cries today are for a basket of currencies. But according to the prophesy mentioned above, Europe, and especially Greece, must recover from their current problems. Since there is only one way I know of for an economy to continue operating beyond its means, that means the Euro must become the International Reserve Currency. And for that to happen, the US dollar must not be the International Reserve Currency.

The US economy is about to completely collapse, and somehow the Euro will become priceless. America is seeing the beginnings of collapse already, with high unemployment, inflation, lack of industry, and recent collapses in the credit rating. The Super-Committee designed to fix our budget woes is failing, and even if they reach an agreement, the US Congress can override it. The bottom line is that the only thing that can prevent this economic collapse now is a sudden 180 degree turn in our societal attitudes toward spending overnight... not likely.

TheRedneck
edit on 11/19/2011 by TheRedneck because: All Biblical excerpts from the King James Version



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 04:29 PM
link   
That is a plausible interpretation, however I can tell you my historical interpretation. The ram, is Alexander the Great, as he wore ram's horns on one of his helmets. Alexander conquered all of Persia and ended up in India. He then turned back and died a few years after. His kingdom (horns) became split by his successors and they in turn were conquered by the Italian tribes who banded together as one, the Roman Republic.



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 04:30 PM
link   
I guess if you twist words enough you can start to believe that prophecies and predictions from a death cult are actually real and meaningful and then can make the mental leap to think they are talking about us.

Personally, I don't buy it. But then I'm not paranoid enough to believe the Bible either.




posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 04:34 PM
link   
reply to post by TheRedneck
 



The bottom line is that oil is not the real problem behind all the conspiracies involving foreign actions on the part of the USA; the real problem is maintaining the viability of the US dollar as the International Reserve Currency.


There's no reason that it can't be both..
Oil and the US$ could be the cause of all the wars..
I'd even say it's resources and military position that's important to them..



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 04:43 PM
link   
reply to post by MegasAlexandros

I have heard that, but the book goes on to describe the actions of the various kings of the four splits from the kingdom... and none of that correlates to the historical accounts of Alexander's empire. Also, and I forgot to put this in the OP, the goat came from the west and "touched not the ground"... something that was not possible in Alexander's time, but is easily possible now due to airflight.

And, as I quoted in the OP, the interpretation states it happens "in the last end of the indignation"... seems to me there is plenty of indignation happening today, so Alexander's time was certainly not the end of such.

TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 04:53 PM
link   
reply to post by ipleadthe5th

Oil is the new gold. Unlike gold, it is useful, even necessary if one is to command large amounts of energy (as in drive a car, fight a war, make things). We have not spent the last several decades with a fiat currency; thanks to the oil-dollar peg, we have had currency backed by oil.

Check out those two threads I linked about the situation in Irag, Afghanistan, and how it ties in with the Fed...

TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 04:53 PM
link   
reply to post by TheRedneck
 


I concede that your are arguments are true. However the four splits could be the Seleucid and Ptolemaic Empires, and Macedon and Greece proper.
edit on 19-11-2011 by MegasAlexandros because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 04:53 PM
link   
The bible is a collection of vague nonsense that contains TONS of contradictions, TONS of absurdities. Even a dead clock is right twice a day.

For a book claimed to be of "divine inspiration", it certainly isnt a masterpiece for sure.

Its all bunk. I too once tried to figure out the meanings behind the tall-tales in it too, but studying its origins of the "Holy Bible" (actually translates into "Sun Book" by the way) it copies all the pre-dating stories and Sun-gods/Man-gods from the past which are all simply characters and stories about Astro-theology.

Thats right, the Sun and planets and stars. Research its origins you'll see. Just stay away from the devilish christain sites that try to twist everything to convince you otherwise to keep their donations rolling in.

Research non-biased resources. You'll see. I sure did.



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 05:02 PM
link   
reply to post by HangTheTraitors

I will never understand the propensity of some to engage in discussions they openly consider to be frivolous. I tend to just pass by those threads where I believe there is no substance.

I dunno, I guess I'm weird that way. Thanks for your opinion.

TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 05:09 PM
link   
Maybe there is something to be said for taking the historical interpretation and building upon it;

The historical interpretation;
The empire of the Medes and the Persians was a very lopsided empire (the Medes contributed much more power and territory than the Persians), and is appropriately represented in Daniel by the bear with one leg or the ram with one horn larger than the other.

The goat would be Alexander, as someone has suggested. "Not touching the ground" is a hyperbolic way of saying that his conquest was astonishingly rapid. It was a real blitzkrieg. Then the four successor states, as mentioned.

Then if you want to apply this to later times, you don't go by similarity of location, but by similarity of position in the world (this has always been my argument with Rome and Babylon in Revelation).
That chapter describes a long-established dominant power being challenged by a newcomer
If we don't get hung up on the actual locations mentioned in the narrative, it's possible to look elsewhere for the challenger.





edit on 19-11-2011 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 06:35 PM
link   


From H5810; a she goat (as strong), but masculine in plural (which also is used elliptically for goats' hair)


Could this be a reference to Esau's descendants and those from Edom. Esau had the skin of Goat's hair and it is said that safety will be Bozrah; a sheepfold. This used to be in Edom but it has now been moved to where the Edomites followed. Edom is where the tribes of Esau's descendants lived. They wear their hair long apparently.

I have uncovered clues that Bozrah is Britain and I believe that the Edomites have come here too.
Argo is here too, making us the Argonauts.

So the 'Goats' could be a reference to a cult (rather than a country or nations) that has gone through the centuries and is going to have their way at the end, till Jesus comes back and dips His robe in their blood.



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 07:48 PM
link   
reply to post by TheRedneck
 


I have to agree that your scenario laid out in your original post has already happened.

2nd



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 07:59 PM
link   

Originally posted by TheRedneck
The bottom line is that the only thing that can prevent this economic collapse now is a sudden 180 degree turn in our societal attitudes toward spending overnight... not likely.


There is nothing that can prevent the economic collapse because economics is the main source of iniquity in the world. It has always been about money. Mammon or God, you cannot serve both.

As to the prophecy, I am not quite understanding the symbolism as you have illustrated it.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 08:05 PM
link   
Well the rams horns could be Sunni and Shia Islam - whilst the goat coming from the West, covering the whole earth without touching the ground has to be the US.



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 11:08 PM
link   
reply to post by IAMIAM

I have to agree with you on the imminence of economic disaster.

What parts of the symbolism are you unsure of? I had to cut the OP back to comply with post limitations, but I would be happy to elucidate for you.

TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 11:13 PM
link   
reply to post by JohhnyBGood

Either the angelic interpretation is wrong, or Greece would have to become part of the USA for the goat to symbolize the USA. Also, later on in the book, the angel is very specific about the events to occur after the kingdom of the goat is split into four pieces... and one of those specifics concerns the southern portion, which is specified as being toward "the pleasant land". Israel (as in the original land occupied by the Hebrews, not necessarily the present-day nation) is also referred to in earlier verses as the "land of milk and honey", a very pleasant area indeed.

TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 11:25 PM
link   

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood
Well the rams horns could be Sunni and Shia Islam - whilst the goat coming from the West, covering the whole earth without touching the ground has to be the US.


I was thinking along these lines my friend.

The river being a representation of spiritual truth, the ram the force of Islam, sunni and shia being the two horns of which one is greater but came last.

The goat coming from the west to challenge Islam, indeed I see this.

Not touching the ground, the internet, also covering the whole world.

I do not look at these prophecies as anything more than spiritual battles that are reflected in the physical world.

So, yes, I concur with your assessment.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 11:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by JohhnyBGood

Either the angelic interpretation is wrong, or Greece would have to become part of the USA for the goat to symbolize the USA. Also, later on in the book, the angel is very specific about the events to occur after the kingdom of the goat is split into four pieces... and one of those specifics concerns the southern portion, which is specified as being toward "the pleasant land". Israel (as in the original land occupied by the Hebrews, not necessarily the present-day nation) is also referred to in earlier verses as the "land of milk and honey", a very pleasant area indeed.

TheRedneck


The USA is a Democratic Republic built on the foundations of Greek society.

It has been prophesied by others that the USA is due to be split into four parts.

Might take some digging to back that claim up.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Nov, 19 2011 @ 11:52 PM
link   
reply to post by IAMIAM

It is interesting to note that the vision does not identify which is evil, the ram or the goat. It only specifies their actions. While it is true that pressing into other areas is probably a sign of an "evil empire", it is also true that the angelic interpretation specifies directly that the rough goat is the first king (ruler) of the physical land of modern day Greece.

The actual word used is Yavan [ יָוָן ], which means the land of Ionia or Greece, as in the land where wine is abundant. The root word from which it springs is yayin [ יָוָן ], meaning "wine". It is obviously speaking of the country of modern-day Greece.

It was difficult for me to accept as well, but after some time I had to accept what I saw. In order to interpret prophecy correctly, one must put aside all preconceived notions; God does not make His plans based around what we would like to think they are. Besides, if you read the Behold, the black horse of Revelation! thread, you will see that the USA is in its last days as the nation we all have known for so long.

I do tend to think the ram's horns may well represent leaders of Islam, possibly of differing sects. That is not specified directly.

TheRedneck

edit on 11/19/2011 by TheRedneck because: typo



posted on Nov, 20 2011 @ 12:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by IAMIAM

It is interesting to note that the vision does not identify which is evil, the ram or the goat. It only specifies their actions. While it is true that pressing into other areas is probably a sign of an "evil empire", it is also true that the angelic interpretation specifies directly that the rough goat is the first king (ruler) of the physical land of modern day Greece.


I do not think this battle is between good and evil, but rather ideologies.



Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


If Grecia is referring to USA, which again I assume only based on the similarity of governments, then we have to consider that America hasn't had a King, yet. The first King is the horn, which represents the first King. Being that it is between the eyes, I take that as the influence, ideologically, the first King has on the second King.

Now personally, I take this first King to be Christ. Him having influence over the Second King which goes up against the Ram with two horns.

Yes, I believe this King to be who will come to rule what will become of America, and then from there, the world.


But this prophecy stuff is over my head with all the scholarly research that goes into it. So, I will leave it for now and see what new thoughts pop up.

Very interesting discussion. Thank you for sharing and contributing your knowledge on the matter.

With Love,

Your Brother




top topics



 
9
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join