The Tide is Turning

reply to post by Unknown Soldier


Actually I found the time on my lunch break. I am going to assume that you are out there protesting, so my question to you is, what do YOU want to accomplish? What do you hope will be achieved? I'm not against people standing up for what they believe in. I am against all the people who are tearing up properties and making a mockery of the whole movement. There seems to be lot of craziness going on, and I don't need to talk to thousands of people to see it. You know what? I realize that our economy is in the gutter, but I'm not sure OWS will change anything. Sue me for being pessimistic. I hope I'm wrong.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


I know what you are trying to say, i mean, if thye dont have a politically active population (or at least being capable of understanding the politics) they cant have a real democracy.
What you are trying to explain is in the "Between Facts and Norms: Contributions to a Discourse Theory of Law and Democracy" from Jürgen Habermas, and having him has a waypoint for true democracy is very good, since he has high standart for critical thinking to a "true democracy" to happen.

Yes, there is a good point when you say that the protesting atittude is a good one, but if they dont try to get anything out of this it will be a empty comunication with zero effect. I seriously dont know if what they need to "get" that objective is more theoretical background or technical one (theoretical meaning breaking of purelly capitalists paradigm and leaning more to a "social capital"; technical being the simple solution of the problem by making or dropping laws). This movement for what is now is a mix of both and thus undefined.

From my point of view they should concentrate more on the "bailouts", "accoutability for the crisis" and the "repaying the bailouts" issues until they can really see what they want.

Sorry for my broken english

Originally posted by stephanies-chase
reply to post by Unknown Soldier

 

Actually I found the time on my lunch break. I am going to assume that you are out there protesting, so my question to you is, what do YOU want to accomplish? What do you hope will be achieved? I'm not against people standing up for what they believe in. I am against all the people who are tearing up properties and making a mockery of the whole movement. There seems to be lot of craziness going on, and I don't need to talk to thousands of people to see it. You know what? I realize that our economy is in the gutter, but I'm not sure OWS will change anything. Sue me for being pessimistic. I hope I'm wrong.

OWS may very well change things! If they succeed, we will have a country we barely recognize. I’m not sure the country can handle much more of the “change” they seek. Personally, I’m ready for some change next November!

I predict OWS will devolve into the small, angry, fringe group of agitators at their core by January and then try to get it rolling again next summer with the intention of disrupting the elections. I can’t wait to see their faces when a republican presidential nominee and hundreds of Tea Party candidates take the oath!!

I can't promise I won't be rubbing it in their faces here on ATS!!

reply to post by phishyblankwaters



No one mentions the fact that what Greece is currently facing was caused by the Banksters at Goldman Sachs.

Not to elaborate but this is EXACTLY what Andrew Jackson and Thomas Jefferson warned us about if we allowed the Banks to takeover our money.

They own each and every one of us....


Peace

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by jacobe001

Originally posted by SJE98
After watching 60 Minutes last night on CBS ,Jack Abramoff gave me some serious pause. Jack said he had 100 congressional offices of both parties bought when he was a lobbyist. I thought to myself This is why there are people in the streets now protesting.

Yep, bought and paid for is correct.

It is this one aspect that has destroyed this country.

This is why I will always support the OWS no matter what anyone here posts, because while there may be some things I disagree with, the corruption and bought and paid for politicians, and the banksters becoming politicians etc it something that needs to be stopped at all costs

Good for you. Now tell those in the OWS to stop destroying property belonging to others. If they don't like the police, they can't ask the police to defend them in the event someone is damaging their property.

If I were to see your car, and decided you should not have it because it makes you bourgeoisie, and throw rocks through your windshield, do I have the right to do it because you are in a percent higher than me? You have money to get a car, you capitalist. I don't think it is fair you should have a car. F%^& the police and you, so you capitalist deserve me throwing this brick through your windshield.

Is that the rhetoric you find acceptable? Do you support my rhetoric?

What if you are standing out there and I run up on you and steal your wallet. Would you call the police? You are capitalist if you do and f%^# the capitalist police and you, you don't deserve the money you have because you are a percent higher than me.

Is that rhetoric acceptable? Do you support my rhetoric?

You may have justifiable reasons for believing you have a righteous cause, but if your righteous cause approves of destruction of property, then it is no longer righteous. My wording was harsh, but clearly would not be something I would do or endorse anyone else doing.


It is disingenuous to disrespect the police and then expect the police to work in your favor.

This exercise in rhetoric and activism can be scaled up to the notion of property rights in general. The essential argument of all Marxist theory is that no property ought to be owned by an individual for his own dispensation: all property should be held communally for the (supposed) benefit of all. This same schizophrenic idea is at the core of the OWS crowd. They are useful idiots, to use a coined term. When I hear these gripes about how capitalism is unfair, that jobs are rights, as is a college education, it is clearly evident to me that the capacity for rational thought in these poor people has been utterly and completely destroyed. How did this world get built and shaped before there were Universities? How many people in this world have been successful, even wealthy, and did not go to college? How many people create their own jobs, taking opportunity into their own hands and commanding their own destiny when there are no jobs to be had? How many people has this current economic downturn forced into becoming entrepreneurs? It's laziness combined with the mentality of a spoiled brat and a mildewed intellectual capacity that has created this phenomenon, and the Communist sympathizers who infest the education system in the United States bear direct responsibility for both creating this situation, perpetuating it, and attempting to seize the opportunity that they believe is at hand. Perhaps instead of reading The Grapes of Wrath, these poor kids should have been reading Atlas Shrugged. Perhaps then they would have actually learned something.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by LifeIsPeculiar

 

Kinda like the IT worker that paid oodles of interest on a student loan thinking it would benefit him in the long run, who is now forced into the fast food sector because his job was exported? That kinda guy?

I wonder how many IT related products he has over the years purchased all Made in China? So he has helped with maintaining the outsourcing of products and services but rallies against it when he loses his job because of it?

Nothing like putting people between a rock and a hard place. Defending the out sourcing of jobs because someone purchases a Chinese made product is pretty thin. Nothing like making the trip from Macy's and fresh food markets into Big Lots.

Originally posted by Witness2008
Nothing like putting people between a rock and a hard place. Defending the out sourcing of jobs because someone purchases a Chinese made product is pretty thin. Nothing like making the trip from Macy's and fresh food markets into Big Lots.

Defending the outsourcing?

Me?

Haha I was pointing out two things.

1. The OWS crowds Hypocrisy. As they Tweet, Chat, Text, Email and Converse on products they support by purchasing them. All made in China as they Simultaneously complain about No real good paying jobs here in the US and Corporatism.

AND

2. The sad state of affairs in US Industry

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
Lets just take a break from the partisan bickering for a minute. Lets forget what you think you know about OWS for a second.

Assumptive, Front loaded thread right off the bat.
Continue....

Even if you feel they are misguided, wrong, or evil, just stop and reflect on what these people are doing.

I view the headlines and what people both [Pro and Con] have to say here at ATS and elsewhere.
Continue....

They are taking time out of their lives to go fight for what they believe is right. do you have the guts to fight for what you believe in?

Yes, and I have.
Continue...

Will you stand in the cold, taking tear gas and rubber bullets, to stand for a principle?

No, Not Rubber Bullets.
Lead ones.

If you won't fight to remake the world in a way you feel is fair and right, who will? If a true movement of the population can't change the system, shouldn't the system be destroyed?

A true movement by "Some" of the people who don't speak for the majority. Let's face it and setting "Politics" aside. Not everybody believes in the manner in which they are protesting nor location. I've said numerous times that I support the general premise of the movement. However, When anybody takes an objective look at it and their various activities and asks hard hitting question they're oftentimes ridiculed and are thrown names at like Sheeple, mindless drones, Shills, Neocons etc etc etc... ad infinitum.

So I agree let's discuss the issues, Provide solutions and stop with the rhetoric from all sides.

The problem I see is the erroneous belief by some OWS supporters that there is some gigantic mythical polarization between those who support OWS and those who look at it objectively.

The Tide is Turning..
Yes, but in which direction?

Spoken like a true patriot
And deserving a good bump.
Well said Slayer69

Originally posted by sir_slide
reply to post by Unknown Soldier

 

Most of the people who attack the movement we have all been hoping for have never even been to a protest, they are arm chair revolutionaries, understand this, no matter what they will attack it.

The molasses thick hypocrisy dripping from protestors - or wanna be protestors claiming to be protestors is so thick and insidious it makes the stomach turn. Without even a hint of irony you enter this thread to first praise the O.P. for attacking those who a.) not only criticize the "movement" for its lack of cohesive and understandable message, but b.) those who are genuinely confused by the "movements" undefined and prosaic message, but make no mistakes about this, you entered this thread to praise another member who created a thread for the sole purpose of attacking people who have valid questions about this "movement" and valid concerns about the ideology this "movement" is refusing to own up to.

You posers are doing far more damage to your own "movement" than any of your detractors could ever do. If you want to be seen as some sort of Christ like figure being crucified upon a cross, you're going to have to do a hell of a lot more than just claim Messianic legacy, sport. Like Jesus, and certainly at this point, you damn well better start coming up with some miracles, or face the irrelevancy of the countless of posers, thieves and charlatans crucified prior to and after Jesus' crucifixion.

This protest "movement", which largely wants to be dismissive of mythology, wants to simultaneously be seen as mythic in its "heroism" without doing anything a mythic hero does to deserve the title of heroic. The mark of a hero is not bogus braggadocio, as you have most assuredly employed and claim, and your braggadocio, at least what I've read so far, is clearly rooted in the conceit that you are some kind of hero, but what have you done, truly?

The mark of a hero is when a person has become adept enough to accept full responsibility for all of their actions, and upon such ascension the understanding becomes that now they must begin accepting responsibility for more than just their own action. Not a single one of you posers have done a damn thing to illustrate how any one of you have even accepted responsibility for your own actions, let alone the responsibility for other peoples actions.

If you want to be a hero, then be a hero! Until that moment, do not think those who fully understand what a hero actually is are required to take you any more seriously than I have here with this post. If what you want is to be crucified, this is your insane perversion, not your critics. If you like bearing crosses, then bear your crosses, but hero's do not waste their time wrapped up in blame. Blame is irrelevant, and when you begin to show signs that you're willing to have an actual discussion about how all these problems get fixed, your peacock preening pretentiousness will only continue to garner, and rightfully so, criticism.

Step up! Be a hero! Until that day comes, if you want to be vocal beware as your empty rhetoric will undo before any real demons can. You are your own worst enemy and until you learn how to defeat that enemy, all you will ever do is just keep whining and claiming victimhood just like children do.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


I am more afraid that OWS was designed to fail, the fact that it has drawn so many from the political spectrum does not bother me. As every one no matter what there political stance is effected by the actions of the 1%. Ultimately i feel as though this movement will fail and will never get momentum again, Which is down to design and control from the start by TPTB. I have drawn this conclusion because of the reaction by some. When any human being would back the idealogical foundation this movement is based on. Any intellectual person would know that through any protest you do not judge the idealogical foundation by the individual actions of some protesters, SIMPLE INTELLECTUAL common sense. So to you who argue the other side, Step back look at what the more intellectual side of the movement are preaching IT IS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF MAN. If you still want to argue than you are wealthy and think more of the money than human LIFE you are the 1%

Originally posted by Unknown Soldier
reply to post by Battleline

 

The OWS may have started out like you say but the special interest groups,America haters and the opportunist have taken the OWS movement over.

If you actually take the time to go down and see for yourself you will clearly see this a lie, this is mere propaganda. Of course the bankers are heavily concerned hence resorting to a smear campaign founded on lies, deception and subterfuge. They are a snake in the grass of the garden and this is what they want you to think.

edit on 9-11-2011 by Unknown Soldier because: (no reason given)

People like you always assume that no one has gone to any of the OWS demonstrations but you ,that is your snake in the grass propaganda.Where do you get off thinking you know what I have or have not done?? This is the only recourse you have is to make statements that you have no way of knowing are true.You are the epitome of this OWS movement,just because you say it ,then it must be true.You are no different then the bankers you clam to be against.

Thank you for proveing my point slick.

reply to post by WarminIndy


I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water and labeling all of them as anti capitalist. I have not seen this from my own research.

Anyways, the only way things are going to change with our corrupt in bed politicians is to attack it out in the open so people are heard and protests are the only way, since elections no longer work.

People Power vs Money Power

Also, when elections used to work, you had Anti-capitalists, Communist sympathizers, Democrats, Republicans etc. as well as Big Money players like the Koch Brothers and George Soros involved in the voting and elections movement, but that did not stop people from getting involved in elections movement. People still sided in the movement on the direction they wanted it to go.

I side with the protest movement on those who want corruption like Wall Street and Lobbyists out of our government.

Likewise, getting involved with protests that want an end to this status quo is the only way things are going to change, unless you can point to some potential presidential candidates that are not bought and paid for and that want to end money in politics. And, since there are none, how do you propose for people to be heard and for potential people to step forward? I would say, protests is the only way, rather than hiding behind a pc where everything continues as is.

Originally posted by jacobe001
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water and labeling all of them as anti capitalist. I have not seen this from my own research.

Anyways, the only way things are going to change with our corrupt in bed politicians is to attack it out in the open so people are heard and protests are the only way, since elections no longer work.

People Power vs Money Power

Also, when elections used to work, you had Anti-capitalists, Communist sympathizers, Democrats, Republicans etc. as well as Big Money players like the Koch Brothers and George Soros involved in the voting and elections movement, but that did not stop people from getting involved in elections movement. People still sided in the movement on the direction they wanted it to go.

I side with the protest movement on those who want corruption like Wall Street and Lobbyists out of our government.

Likewise, getting involved with protests that want an end to this status quo is the only way things are going to change, unless you can point to some potential presidential candidates that are not bought and paid for and that want to end money in politics. And, since there are none, how do you propose for people to be heard and for potential people to step forward? I would say, protests is the only way, rather than hiding behind a pc where everything continues as is.

But if you are willing to protest, would you not also support the Tea Party for wanting the same thing as less government and accountability within the financial sector? Or are you tossing in for the OWS because they claim to represent the Left, even though they don't really?

I couldn't agree more....

Thanks so much for posting this...

I've been saying it all along...You might not agree what they're standing for, but at least they're standing!

S&F for you.

reply to post by Unknown Soldier


Completely agree my friend.

What is so bad about peace and love? Hippy has obviously become a pretty dirty word when used in the context of protests etc, and people know this. What is really dangerous about being critical of people who want to find peace and love in the world and in their lives is that the other side of the coin is hate and fear, which people seem to practice religiously on here and out on the world, as we can all see. Nice response man, you make some great points.

What really gets me is for all the complaining about jobs being outsourced it seems that the blame is solely on the companies. Lets not look at the special interest that have made the price of doing business so high. Environmental groups will chime in anytime something is going to be built. I am not against preserving our environment, but I find it hypocritical when I see woodland being destroyed for another strip mall for consumers but a actual industry gets to jump through hoops from private interests and the gov't. The real reasons companies have been shipping jobs overseas is time and money. China and India two of the biggest countries to outsource to have very lax environmental standards. Why wait five years to build a plant when you can go over seas and have it up & running in two? The same folks who didn't want the place in their back yard will happily buy the goods when made somewhere else. Out of sight out of mind. In the mean time the US bleeds jobs because a middle ground can't be found. After hurricane Irene NY suspended the environmental requirements for rebuilding to speed up the repairs. We are so bogged down with laws you can't build anything in the states without costly and time consuming "studies" on the impact. Someone is going to have to give up something if we ever want to get out of this economic mess and it may be surprising on who it may be.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


ahah man you're delusional. Your posts always seem to come from the top of mount Olympus. I don't agree what so ever with your assertions time and time again and your perspective on this issue seems incredibly arrogant to say the least. A response in the other thread would nice also...

Originally posted by sir_slide
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

ahah man you're delusional. Your posts always seem to come from the top of mount Olympus. I don't agree what so ever with your assertions time and time again and your perspective on this issue seems incredibly arrogant to say the least. A response in the other thread would nice also...

Right, and here you are doing nothing more than dismissing just as you always do. You refuse to offer any solutions, you arrogantly created a thread giving the OWS credit for things they had little to nothing to do with, and then you take all this haughty arrogance, and when called on it, accuse your critics of your own crimes. You have no interest at all in any discussion that would actually get down to the brass tacks of actually fixing problems and only want to keep driving wedges and then declare that your wedge driving has helped us all, and you want to call me delusional. To each his own I guess.

Originally posted by sir_slide
What is so bad about peace and love? Hippy has obviously become a pretty dirty word when used in the context of protests etc, and people know this.

I don't completely see them as such but to simply play down that aspect is not facing reality.

What is really dangerous about being critical of people who want to find peace and love in the world and in their lives is that the other side of the coin is hate and fear

That's pretty cut and dry presumptuous rationalization for not looking at them critically. I'm sorry but when I see something I disagree with that's coming down the pike that will adversely affect me and mine I dig in.

which people seem to practice religiously on here and out on the world, as we can all see. Nice response man, you make some great points.

Viewing the world through rose-tinted glasse doesn't put food on the table nor pay the bills. Life consists of ups and downs and conflicting points of views and opinions. Once a person realizes that not everybody feels the same way they do yet may have a common cause they will either do one of two things. Rip each other apart in conflict or make compromises.

Accommodating the other guy in a cooperative manner for the benefit of both will see us through.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I replied to your other post in the other thread I mentioned, nothing from you in return, so I really don't see a point to this other than to validate your superior moral standpoint. It's my day off and I don't really want to spend it bickering, good luck to you.