The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a myth

reply to post by jmdewey60


Who is "the Lamb"?

I'm not in a cult but one must keep in mind that sometimes the bible speaks in metaphor and allegory, and sometimes it is up front and blunt with no hidden meanings. You HAVE to pray and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance into the true meaning of the scripture you study. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth and he will help you discern the true meanings of each scripture.

If you try to read the bible under your own power using your own logic instead of relying on God, you are going to totally miss some things. The bible was never meant to be read using a human beings rationalization. When you use your own rational mind you totally throw out God and you will never know the true meaning. The Holy Spirit is the key to diciphering the bible correctly.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

My hermaneutic approach is one of a literalist.

Just out of curiosity, what is your understanding of the passage in John ch4 when Jesus tells his disciples that he is sending them out into the harvest?
Absolutely literal, I take it?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I'm not a Gnostic, I reject completely doeticism. Christ was fully man when He walked the Earth. He was also fully God the Son. He added humanity to His Divinity.

Your response to my quote of 1 Timothy tells me you are a Oneness believer who rationalizes the use of the word trinity as a cover for your heresy, which is in line with the deceptive practices of your cult.
You still end up with the same result which is a Jesus who could not fail, being the Holy God Almighty. You just arrive at it by a different route, one of course not supported by the Bible.

reply to post by modeerftahw

So you believe that God basically decided to bitch-slap hundreds of billions of his followers and then allow a few million a free pass and a life of luxury.

That's what I tell people all the time.
"If you were living in (fill in the blank) you would think the tribulation is right now and where is their rapture?"

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

The Holy Spirit is the key to diciphering the bible correctly.

Then you limit it by saying it must conform to this church teaching.

The bible says only that we will not know the hour/day of the Lords return, it doesn't say we will not know when the Tribulation has begun. If anything it tells us that true believers will know when it has begun.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

The Holy Spirit is the key to diciphering the bible correctly.

Then you limit it by saying it must conform to this church teaching.

I said no such thing. You're putting words in my mouth. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth, this applies to anything include the scriptures. He applies to prophecy and performing miracles on top of interpreting scriptures and the spiritual gifts of God.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

F.Y.I. JM hates the literal reading of the Biblical text. I must warn you if you continue to apply a literal reading to your posts here you run the risk of being labeled a "cult" member.

If you were in fact interpreting Revelation literally, you would understand that the Word of God is The Word of God, and not through so many figurative twists turns into a literal person when it is not.
You have to interpret the vision as one thing literal and one thing figurative.
It is either the literal word of God and a figurative person, or a figurative word of God and a literal person.
I would take the person as the figurative of the two. There are multiple clues that should direct the reader in that direction, one being the sword coming out of his mouth. The sword being a figure of the literal word of God.
That is biblical, and where is your literal verse saying Jesus = word?
Here is the #1 hit doing a Bible word search for Jesus word:

"who then testified to everything that he saw concerning the word of God and the testimony about Jesus Christ."

Looks like two different things to me.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Who is "the Lamb"?

If you are in fact a literal interpreter of Revelation then you should see a literal lamb running around heaven with multiple sets of eyes and with its throat cut and covered in its own blood.
I'm not sure but I would use my own law of interpreting Revelation which is that it is always talking to the same people and is always talking about the same people, so that would make the lamb the persecuted church.

Some seem confused on this thread.

Jew= Member of the Tribe of Judah (Yehudah)
Israel (in scripture) a Nation of 12 Tribes.

So Israel doesn't equal Jew, though all Jews are part of Israel.

There is one law (Torah) for Israel and for the stranger (goy/gentile) who dwells among them.

Jesus (Not His real Name) came to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"

Paul taught that we are grafted in to the same tree, what tree? Israel.

Paul, and all the disciples and Jesus, btw kept all the commandments, including the Sabbath.

In Matt 24 when Jesus said (speaking of the last days) "pray that your flight does not take place in winter or on the Sabbath" he was clearly expecting that His followers in the last days would still be "keeping the Sabbath" that means no buying, selling, or travelling far, or working.

He's coming back for those who keep His commandments and testify to Y'shua (Jesus). That is very few people! Most jews reject Messiah and most "christians" reject the commandments of the Torah.

There will be a remnant, and He will "catch them away" but this will be later...the first exodus was for our benefit. We will repeat the process.

This only rings true to those who belong to Him. Only "His sheep" know His voice. To everyone else it's wrong or crazy.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Who is "the Lamb"?

If you are in fact a literal interpreter of Revelation then you should see a literal lamb running around heaven with multiple sets of eyes and with its throat cut and covered in its own blood.
I'm not sure but I would use my own law of interpreting Revelation which is that it is always talking to the same people and is always talking about the same people, so that would make the lamb the persecuted church.

Who did John the Baptist say was "the lamb"? And the persecuted church has never been referred to as "the Lamb" of God.

Try again, tell me who "the Lamb" is. Sunday school children can answer this one.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I'm not a Gnostic, I reject completely doeticism. Christ was fully man when He walked the Earth. He was also fully God the Son. He added humanity to His Divinity.

Your response to my quote of 1 Timothy tells me you are a Oneness believer who rationalizes the use of the word trinity as a cover for your heresy, which is in line with the deceptive practices of your cult.
You still end up with the same result which is a Jesus who could not fail, being the Holy God Almighty. You just arrive at it by a different route, one of course not supported by the Bible.

Nope, I don't subscribe to "Oneness" doctrine. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are seperate persons of the Godhead.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

My hermaneutic approach is one of a literalist.

Just out of curiosity, what is your understanding of the passage in John ch4 when Jesus tells his disciples that he is sending them out into the harvest?
Absolutely literal, I take it?

A "literalist" doesn't mean that one denies the Spirit uses figures of speech. Come on, that was a facetious question.

reply to post by justagirl

Jesus (Not His real Name). . .

Now this is his commandment: that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another. . .

written: Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
pronounced something like: E. A. Sue, Crease Too

That seems a bit odd to me that John would lead us off into believing in something false.

Also I don't see Jesus and Paul keeping the Law of Moses and in fact they seem to have made it a point to disregard them when possible.
Praying that your flight be not on the Sabbath would have more to do with the enforcers of the Sabbath laws, to where you could not carry anything.

I don't see Paul making a point that the tree itself, in the telling of his allegory, is Israel. The root is holy and that makes the whole tree holy, including the branches which were at one time Israel but are now the nations.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Who did John the Baptist say was "the lamb"? And the persecuted church has never been referred to as "the Lamb" of God.

Try again, tell me who "the Lamb" is. Sunday school children can answer this one.

I am saying it is being referred to as the slain lamb in the book of Revelation and if it is not referred to in that way in other books then so what?
I already gave you my answer so don't keep asking me the same question over and over.
I am not one of your Sunday School pupils being indoctrinated into your cult.

John did not say that Jesus was the slain lamb who was to take a scroll from the one seated on the throne.

"He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth."

This sounds like an allusion back to the earlier mention of the seven lamp-stands and the seven churches, which would be the practical application of something being sent off into the earth.

If you don't like it I would guess that it has to do with your interpretation of a war against the Lamb and you wanting to make Jesus a killer so you can promote your cult's approval of war in the here and now to kill Muslims for the sake of the modern regime in Palestine calling itself Israel.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

A "literalist" doesn't mean that one denies the Spirit uses figures of speech. Come on, that was a facetious question.

A literalist is one who believes that Israel is actually the country in Palestine calling itself by that name, and not the inheritors of the promises to Abraham which would be the Christians, so it is only a narrow bit of verses that are taken literally and are the ones with the name Israel in them.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I'm not a Gnostic, I reject completely doeticism. Christ was fully man when He walked the Earth. He was also fully God the Son. He added humanity to His Divinity.

Your response to my quote of 1 Timothy tells me you are a Oneness believer who rationalizes the use of the word trinity as a cover for your heresy, which is in line with the deceptive practices of your cult.
You still end up with the same result which is a Jesus who could not fail, being the Holy God Almighty. You just arrive at it by a different route, one of course not supported by the Bible.

Nope, I don't subscribe to "Oneness" doctrine. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are seperate persons of the Godhead.

OK, you deny a label but you do not deny the rest, which is your belief that Jesus never gave up being fully God while the Bible says otherwise in no uncertain terms.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Who did John the Baptist say was "the lamb"? And the persecuted church has never been referred to as "the Lamb" of God.

Try again, tell me who "the Lamb" is. Sunday school children can answer this one.

I am saying it is being referred to as the slain lamb in the book of Revelation and if it is not referred to in that way in other books then so what?
I already gave you my answer so don't keep asking me the same question over and over.
I am not one of your Sunday School pupils being indoctrinated into your cult.

John did not say that Jesus was the slain lamb who was to take a scroll from the one seated on the throne.

"He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth."

This sounds like an allusion back to the earlier mention of the seven lamp-stands and the seven churches, which would be the practical application of something being sent off into the earth.

Seven is the number of "completion", or "totality". Seven eyes means complete vision, seeing everything at once. Seven churches were seven literal churches, yet the first 2 chapters of Revelation are for all the churches to read. "He who has an ear..". If you have an ear it's meant for you to read and understand.

Who is "the Lamb"? I'm looking for a name. What is the name of the Lamb of God, who is the Lamb? And "the Lamb" isn't slain in Revelation. It says "who WAS slain". If it was meant to be read that the Lamb was still slain at that time it would be in the aorist tense in the Greek.

Who is "the Lamb" that "was" slain? What is the name of the Lamb of God???????

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing." ~ Revelation 5:12

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! ~ John 1:29

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. ~ Revelation 13:8

If you don't like it I would guess that it has to do with your interpretation of a war against the Lamb and you wanting to make Jesus a killer so you can promote your cult's approval of war in the here and now to kill Muslims for the sake of the modern regime in Palestine calling itself Israel.

Revelation says Jesus will wage the war, not us. I'm not a "kingdom Now" dominionist. We can't have a "kingdom" here on Earth before THE KING arrives.

Who is "the Lamb"? One name please, this is a simple question.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Nope, I don't subscribe to "Oneness" doctrine. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are seperate persons of the Godhead.

OK, you deny a label but you do not deny the rest, which is your belief that Jesus never gave up being fully God while the Bible says otherwise in no uncertain terms.

Wrong, people who subscribe to the "Oneness" doctrine teach and believe that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all the same person of God just choosing to reveal Himself in different forms at different times. I don't subscribe to the "Oneness" doctrine. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are different entities, co-equal, co-eternal persons of the Godhead. The Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Spirit and the Spirit is neither the Father or the Son.