The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a myth

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Exactly, until the church fails and is martyred in the 5th seal, by which God's will shall again fall on the jews shoulders in the seventh seal, and thoe who died in christ are called up first and those who managed to survive are transformed and we all meet together with Christ before Armageddon.

I see no reason to bring the Jews into it at all.
I think this passage indicates the existence of two different sets of Christian martyrs.
My interpretation of events is that the victims of the persecution of the Beast are the second set, who come later
At this point in Revelation, the Beast has not appeared on the scene.
.
The theory I put forward in my threads is that the first set of martyrs are already dead when ch6 begins- indeed, that ch6 is God's reaction to their deaths (which is why it comes so quickly after the state of persecution implied in ch1)
What we see when the fifth seal is opened is simply their reaction to what God is doing

Why do you think Jews cannot be "Christians" considering they were first Christians before Gentiles in the first place? Daniel's 70th week is focused on Israel and the Jews. The reason for the Great Tribulation is to drive them to accept their Messiah Jesus Christ.

"I will return again to my place, until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face, and in their distress earnestly seek me." ~ Hosea 5:15

In the Hebrew "guilt" or "offense" is singular and specific. It's the offense of rejection of Christ. The entire purpose of Daniel's 70th week is Jewish and for them to acknowledge their sin of rejecting their Messiah and to earnestly call on Him.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Jesus was a man. God is the flesh means He had flesh and blood just like you and I. The Gnostics believe Jesus just appeared human, I'm not a Gnostic.

What you have told me earlier is that this "flesh and blood" was something Jesus put on, in addition to all the things he was previous to that "putting on".
There is no verse in the Bible that says that.
There is one that says something quite different. Hebrews 2:9
". . .but we see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by God’s grace he would experience death on behalf of everyone."

For "a little while" Jesus was a man, and "lower than the angels".

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The one coming on the horse is called "faithful and true", and has the name "King of kings and Lord of Lord's" written on His thigh. That's Jesus. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. Then in 19-21 it says He who is on the horse wages war Himself.

The name is written on his thigh, which is different than being that himself.

1 Timothy 6:15, 16
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Sounds like God, to me.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The one coming on the horse is called "faithful and true", and has the name "King of kings and Lord of Lord's" written on His thigh. That's Jesus. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. Then in 19-21 it says He who is on the horse wages war Himself.

The name is written on his thigh, which is different than being that himself.

1 Timothy 6:15, 16
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Sounds like God, to me.

Wow, absurd. Christ is the "King of kings and Lord of lords". In case you're still confused the apostle John who wrote Revelation also wrote the GOSPEL of John says that Jesus is "The Word of God". And again says the rider on the horse is called "The Word of God" in Revelation 19:13.

Who is "the lamb"? Can you please tell me who "the lamb" is, I'm curious.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Jesus was a man. God is the flesh means He had flesh and blood just like you and I. The Gnostics believe Jesus just appeared human, I'm not a Gnostic.

For "a little while" Jesus was a man, and "lower than the angels".

And who claims Jesus was not a man? (Other than the Gnostics)

JM, can you please clearly identify who "the Lamb" is? I'm curious.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Jesus was a man. God is the flesh means He had flesh and blood just like you and I. The Gnostics believe Jesus just appeared human, I'm not a Gnostic.

For "a little while" Jesus was a man, and "lower than the angels".

And who claims Jesus was not a man? (Other than the Gnostics)

You say that was "put on" while he retained all of whatever he was before that. That while he had this "man" on, he was still God Almighty. And being that, was incorruptible and could not sin. That negates being flesh since flesh is corruptible.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . .the rider on the horse is called "The Word of God" in Revelation 19:13.

"He is called. . ." but "He has a name written that no one knows except himself."

So I think this is saying that whatever is being symbolically portrayed in this vision is having the very authority of God but is not identifiable as a particular individual by name. So your identifying this thing by name is going against the will of God as told by the writer of Revelation. (while also blaspheming the name of God)

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Jesus was a man. God is the flesh means He had flesh and blood just like you and I. The Gnostics believe Jesus just appeared human, I'm not a Gnostic.

For "a little while" Jesus was a man, and "lower than the angels".

And who claims Jesus was not a man? (Other than the Gnostics)

You say that was "put on" while he retained all of whatever he was before that. That while he had this "man" on, he was still God Almighty. And being that, was incorruptible and could not sin. That negates being flesh since flesh is corruptible.

I'm not a Gnostic, I reject completely doeticism. Christ was fully man when He walked the Earth. He was also fully God the Son. He added humanity to His Divinity.

I'm still waiting for your answer, who is "the Lamb"? This is the third time I've asked.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

. . .the rider on the horse is called "The Word of God" in Revelation 19:13.

"He is called. . ." but "He has a name written that no one knows except himself."

So I think this is saying that whatever is being symbolically portrayed in this vision is having the very authority of God but is not identifiable as a particular individual by name. So your identifying this thing by name is going against the will of God as told by the writer of Revelation. (while also blaspheming the name of God)

"I think..." That's the language of a conjecture. I'm not interested in your conjectures. What does the text say? The Word of God is the rider on the horse who is coming to wage war against the armies of the antichrist. He's also called the "King of kings and Lord of lords". Hmmm, how could God be omniscient and there being a "name" no one knew except the rider of the horse? Apparently the rider of the horse is a person of the Godhead.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

. . .the rider on the horse is called "The Word of God" in Revelation 19:13.

"He is called. . ." but "He has a name written that no one knows except himself."

So I think this is saying that whatever is being symbolically portrayed in this vision is having the very authority of God but is not identifiable as a particular individual by name. So your identifying this thing by name is going against the will of God as told by the writer of Revelation. (while also blaspheming the name of God)

edit on 22-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

The Word of God is Jesus the Christ, the rider on the white horse is Him, and yes he has a heavenly name...he wasnt always called Jesus before he came to earth. In most cases he was referred to as "the angel of the Lord" pre-incarnate. "in the beginning there was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God" and the Word of God has and always will be Jesus Christ, therefore Jesus is God in the "flesh". When God said "let us make man in OUR image" he was not refering that He looked like Man, he was refering that He has 3 parts to Him, God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit. In essence the "Father" is the Soul of God, the Holy Spirit is his divine Spirit, and the Son is Jesus the physical incarnation of God the WORD, his Flesh. In effect God was making man in his image by giving us a Body,Spirit and Soul.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

"I think..." That's the language of a conjecture. I'm not interested in your conjectures.

I can't think of a laimer excuse of an argument than criticising me for admitting that I am expressing an opinion.
As far as I can tell, you have no opinion and just mouth the doctrines of your cult.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

The Word of God is Jesus the Christ.

The word of God is the word of God, whatever God wants it to be.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

Are you kidding me? Paul says we are symbolically Israel, but if you go to verse 5 of chapter 7 the text tells you that there will be 12,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel that are sealed. That should tell you it's not talking about symbolic Jews, but literal Jews from the literal 12 tribes.

No, I'm not kidding you.
I understand the numbers and tribal names as having a symbolic meaning too. It's all explained in the relevant thread- "Revelation- 144,000" (q.v.)

Why does anyone believe that a lucky group of people from 1 specific generation will be spared from tribulation (slavery, prison, torture, death extc)....when for thousands of years people have been martyred, enslaved and persecuted in any sick way you can imagine. So you believe that God basically decided to bitch-slap hundreds of billions of his followers and then allow a few million a free pass and a life of luxury. If you believe in america/europe version of christianity then you believe health, wealth and prosperity to the "good" people and punishment for the "bad" people. What a ridiculous fairy tale. When the "good" people from your family or church start dying in storms, famines and war, then you will have to face up to the fact that your life is no more valuable than anyone else.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

"I think..." That's the language of a conjecture. I'm not interested in your conjectures.

I can't think of a laimer excuse of an argument than criticising me for admitting that I am expressing an opinion.
As far as I can tell, you have no opinion and just mouth the doctrines of your cult.

You're exactly right I have no "opinion", I just read the text and agree with what it declares whatever that may be.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

Proverbs 3:5




Alright, I suppose a 4th time won't kill me:


Who is "the Lamb"?

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

Are you kidding me? Paul says we are symbolically Israel, but if you go to verse 5 of chapter 7 the text tells you that there will be 12,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel that are sealed. That should tell you it's not talking about symbolic Jews, but literal Jews from the literal 12 tribes.

No, I'm not kidding you.
I understand the numbers and tribal names as having a symbolic meaning too. It's all explained in the relevant thread- "Revelation- 144,000" (q.v.)

My hermaneutic approach is one of a literalist. I don't think the sealing of the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel is "symbolic". I believe it's exactly what it says, a sealing of 12,000 in each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

The Word of God is Jesus the Christ.

The word of God is the word of God, whatever God wants it to be.

That is NOT what scripture says.

www.sundayschoollessons.com...

Not that im trying to belittle you, i am NOT. Read the Book of John 1: 10-18. It states that Jesus is the literal bible come to life, the Word of God.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

The Word of God is Jesus the Christ.

The word of God is the word of God, whatever God wants it to be.

No, the first chapter of the gospel of John identifies the "Word of God" as Jesus Christ. The same author of Revelation.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

The Word of God is Jesus the Christ.

The word of God is the word of God, whatever God wants it to be.

That is NOT what scripture says.

www.sundayschoollessons.com...

Not that im trying to belittle you, i am NOT. Read the Book of John 1: 10-18. It states that Jesus is the literal bible come to life, the Word of God.

F.Y.I. JM hates the literal reading of the Biblical text. I must warn you if you continue to apply a literal reading to your posts here you run the risk of being labeled a "cult" member.