The famous tree of knowledge

First off I would like to say, if you believe the bible is to be taken literally, and the only truth, this probably isn't a thread you will like much.

I was laying in bed trying to sleep, and a strange thought popped into my head... I will see if I can explain it well, sometimes I am not good at putting my thought into words...

I was contemplating the whole story about the the famous "Tree of Knowledge" that Adam and Eve ate the apple from. What if it wasn't a tree of knowledge at all? What if it was a tree of delusion?

The story goes, that they used to run around naked in the garden before they ate of the fruit. After they ate of the fruit, they suddenly found something embarrassing about running around naked. What if there is no right or wrong, and that is what the fruit did?

Does that make sense? After eating the fruit, something that was perfectly natural somehow seemed wrong to them. If there is a right and wrong, why would god want to keep that from them?

Have you tried counting sheeples?

Seriously, I swear I try not to stray to far from the literal. However, the knowledge that is spoken of in Genesis
Being of both good and evil. I'm thinking might very well have been aquired through an hallucinagenic eatable that they were told by God not to eat there of. Because they were not ready for their view of the world to change.
Ya! Call me a rebel but I'm going with plausible.

SnF

reply to post by TKDRL


most translations ive read use the name "tree of knowledge of good and evil" which leads me to believe it is the knowledge of "right" and "wrong." it could also be the knowledge of opposites and duality in general. to know one thing you must know its opposite as well. what they learned from the serpent or the devil was that they had been deceived. what they failed to realise but realised later was that it was for their own good. thus is born the devil leading us into temptation and our ultimate fate of disappointment when ignorance could very well have been bliss.

reply to post by randyvs


Haha good one. Actually I am not quite sure delusion is the right word I am looking for. Maybe duality would be a better fit. Before eating the fruit, they were whole people, and everything was right and natural. After the fruit, the soul was split in two, and are constantly battling agains themselves. Maybe that is a better way of saying it.

reply to post by TKDRL


how can you accept that there were Adam and Eve , but there wasn't any tree or the god's advise about the tree ?

reply to post by hmdphantom


I didn't say I accept anything, I am just looking to discuss a story, and maybe some hiddem meanings, and hear other people's perspectives about it.

reply to post by thegiftbearer


I suppose that we might be thinking along the same lines with the duality angle there. I guess it might even be the day guilt was brought into the human mind. If you didn't know about good and bad, you couldn't be guilty about it eh?

Originally posted by thegiftbearer
reply to post by TKDRL

 

most translations ive read use the name "tree of knowledge of good and evil" which leads me to believe it is the knowledge of "right" and "wrong." it could also be the knowledge of opposites and duality in general. to know one thing you must know its opposite as well. what they learned from the serpent or the devil was that they had been deceived. what they failed to realise but realised later was that it was for their own good. thus is born the devil leading us into temptation and our ultimate fate of disappointment when ignorance could very well have been bliss.

So why put a forbidden tree/object/notion in plain sight? That tells me the choice was a given at the onset.
Freewill? The choice to be whole, "good and bad" versus ignorant and docile. Aren't we more impowered with this duality?

reply to post by randyvs


Lol maybe it was a mushroom growing on the tree and not the fruit itself, that would be an interesting angle to think about. Was a mushroom considered a fruit back then?

reply to post by itsallmaya


That always reminded me of something I saw on a tv show once, I can't remember which one it was.... But it was an experiment type thing:

New job, the boss explains everything but a big red button, with a label that read "Do not push". Most people ended up pushing it anyways, just to see what would happen. The whole story always reminded me of that kind of setup.

reply to post by TKDRL


See that's an easy one. it could also be, that the tree they ate from, is no longer even available to us. As they were bannished from the place where this obviously very unique tree was. We havn't been there since.

As with all Bible stories, this is a parable to reveal a truth that will later become clear. Later is now. Man was given a choice at his inception. The choice engaged his development path. He had two choices. Either follow God as his teacher for knowledge or follow himself, apart from God. The tree of knowledge is the understanding of opposites. Good and evil is the central degree of difference.

Imagine the degrees of temperature. Hot and cold are one thing. High and low are one thing. Fast and slow are one thing. Light and dark are one thing. Human intellect depends on conceptualizing these degrees of difference in abstract. Animals cannot do this and therefore do not have nuos. The mind of God is nuos, the ability to see difference in the mind.

Man made the choice to seek knowledge himself. When he made this choice, through the deception of a fallen divine being, God told him that he would get his knowledge by working the land in toil. If he had walked with God instead, he would have mirrored the life of Enoch. Enoch walked with God and built the pyramids. All wisdom is locked in the pyramids and in Hermetic philosophy. Hermes was three people. Enoch, Joseph and Moses.

Despite man's choice to seek knowledge himself, the real teacher is still God. God is there leading man along the way. As long as man still seeks knowledge in pride, the work will be done in toil. But, what's the point from God's perspective?

This is revealed in Deuteronomy 4:19

19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

Inheriting the universe is the heritage of man. We will rule in the universe. If you read Ephesians chapters 1-3, the mystery purpose of God is revealed. Also, there are verses in Revelation that talks of a war in Heaven to cleanse it of evil beings. Man is being prepared in the lessons of faith, hope and love. Ephesians reveals that we inherit the universe (Heaven) as our heritage and then we take this message of faith, hope and love to the "families" in Heaven.

We were created for this purpose. In Genesis chapter 6, you see that the "Divine" beings from Heaven corrupted the seed (DNA) of man. Noah was the pure seed that was preserved through the flood. Read Enoch 1 to see this story in more detail. Again, Enoch was Hermes. If you read the Corpus Hermeticum, you will get a clear picture of what God is all about. In the Corpus Hermeticum, the Son of God is the Word, or LOGOS. The LOGOS created the material world and is Christ when he comes in the form of man as a perfected image. I would recommend the book, The Way of Hermes. It is a clear English translation from three scholars. Also, they Kybalion is a handy reference.

This is the foreshadowing of the Exposed from Egypt (Earth). The story of the Exodus is an archetype of man receiving a new avatar as a vehicle to exist in Heaven. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. This is true. Man can only go into space by taking a bubble of earth with him in a space suit or ship. Christ says, in a moment, at the last trumpet of God, we shall all be changed. Within the twinkling of an eye.

Does this sound like a crazy story? Our modern view of physics would say that it is completely plausible. Any sufficiently advanced technology will seem as magic to us. Remember, we have only had primitive technology for less than 100 years. What would we have after a billion. How about Christ (LOGOS) who created it all. How long has he had to perfect his technology? God is the most advanced technology you can image. Just consider the bio-mechanical suit you are currently using as a vehicle to sense the world. Its only imperfections come from the abuse that man has put it through. I'd say its held up pretty well over the millennia.

God has one requirement for us and this is our only act of free will that we possess. Belief in him. A choice to walk with Him or apart from Him. Either way, he determines destiny.

Originally posted by TKDRL
First off I would like to say, if you believe the bible is to be taken literally, and the only truth, this probably isn't a thread you will like much.

I was laying in bed trying to sleep, and a strange thought popped into my head... I will see if I can explain it well, sometimes I am not good at putting my thought into words...

I was contemplating the whole story about the the famous "Tree of Knowledge" that Adam and Eve ate the apple from. What if it wasn't a tree of knowledge at all? What if it was a tree of delusion?

The story goes, that they used to run around naked in the garden before they ate of the fruit. After they ate of the fruit, they suddenly found something embarrassing about running around naked. What if there is no right or wrong, and that is what the fruit did?

Does that make sense? After eating the fruit, something that was perfectly natural somehow seemed wrong to them. If there is a right and wrong, why would god want to keep that from them?

reply to post by randyvs


So what is your take on the whole garden of eden? Some hidden place on earth, or another realm or dimension so to speak? That was always one of the other angles I liked to think about and imagine.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


I am nodding off now, I will get back to ya later for sure. Didn't want you to think I just skipped over and ignored your post though.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by randyvs

 

So what is your take on the whole garden of eden? Some hidden place on earth, or another realm or dimension so to speak? That was always one of the other angles I liked to think about and imagine.

I think the world is a fine mix of possibilities.Through those possibilities, I can see the Bible can be taken literally
and that it is pure truth thru and thru. Truth lives forever. Thus The Living Bible. The book is alive.


Superiored

Man that was a great read you put up.

I don't think the bible was meant to be taken literally. To me it's a great story book. Especially when we take into account the translation of it, geared towards monotheism and patriachal ideals. Each to their own though, I don't want to offend.

I think you may find the following link very interesting. This episode of "The bible's buried secrets".
is about the garden of Eden and Adam and Eve.

www.youtube.com...

In another episode, the tree of life originated from "god's wife", the tree/branch was a sign of fertility, life giving, etc.

www.youtube.com...

Hope you enjoy them.

Perhaps it was the metaphorical tree of knowledge of good and evil. Before we ate from it everything was neutral... there was no evil nor good. Thus, when we gained this knowledge, and the neutrality of existence was separated sin was created. This is what I always took from that story, and I guess that is what you were getting at. Although, lately I can, with disappointment, find more reason in it being the tree of all knowledge, as all knowledge soaked up from our roots can branch out and fruit in varying levels of good and evil. So, perhaps, curiosity killed the cat?
Sure, we haven't eaten from its highest branches even yet, but besides things like these nifty computers or somewhat confusing sentiments it certainly hasn't shown that much promise. I think we lived out our little fantasy long enough. To the the woods! the caves! the wilds! my brethren. We can only hope that our garden will be restored.

lol hmm

if you believe the bible is to be taken literally

Then you need to consider that Genesis was written in Ancient Hebrew and that the same words which are translated knowledge of good and bad here are translated as wisdom when Solomon asks for, and receives with the Lord's approval, what the words describe. The phrase also occurs in connection with a petitioner to King David. She attributes the quality to angels, and says David has it, too, in order to butter his Pop-tarts.

Taking the phrase literally in Genesis 2-3 simply doesn't work. It is obvious that Adam and the Woman already know that there is good and that there is bad, else we couldn't have that great scene with Serpent. The Woman would be too busy chowing down on the forbidden fruit, a meaningless category to her. Even the All Mother to-be can't talk with her mouth full.

The story goes, that they used to run around naked in the garden before they ate of the fruit. After they ate of the fruit, they suddenly found something embarrassing about running around naked.

No, actually that isn't how the story goes. At least not if you mean the one in the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible.

Flesh-hating Christians read the story that way, but it's not in the text. (Nice illustration, BTW, that Biblical "literalists" usually aren't literalists at all.) Genesis never says that they were ashamed. Body shame is discussed only in chapter 2, that the First Couple weren't ashamed, in a passage otherwise about aspects of married life that persist into the present day.

Take a breath. A newly married couple, both with hot bods, find themselves alone - guaranteed alone - in a subtropical garden paradise. They strip off.

Q: When did the above scene take place?

It's probably taking place somewhere right now. The writer, editors and original readers of Genesis 2 knew that young marrieds run around naked when they know they're alone together. This is not an obscure exigetical point, lol.

The reaction that inspires marginal clothing in the actual story is fear, not shame (neither in the sense of body shame, nor in the sense of self-reproach for having "rebelled" - both are much later Christian readings). There is nothing in the text that indicates that the Woman covers her breasts. They both gird their loins - then and now a figure of preparation for conflict.

Hypothetical. Suppose you sleep in the buff. It's midnight. You are awakened in your bedroom by a strange noise coming from the kitchen. You get up and go to investigate.

Q: Do you put on your bathrobe, or do you go to the kitchen naked?

You've come up with a nice rejoinder to a typical Christian reading of this Hebrew story. But, just like the reading it rebuts, your version has nothing to do with the actual text of Genesis.

The garden is the Earth. I guess anything is possible, but it seems that the earth is an obvious garden preserve before man got here. I picture it as a womb and our body as a placenta. This sounds a bit crazy until you realize the bio-mechanical nature of our body. There is clear purpose in our spirit being connected by a soul to the body. All of this is explained in the Bible and other places so it is unlikely we can draw any other conclusions. Science continues to confirm what we already know. Our bodies are miracles of engineering and design. Any sufficiently advanced technology will see as magic. If we have nothing else to compare it to, the body will seem to be the only thing of its kind. Now that we have created robots in our own image, we see the reverse engineered nature of what we are accomplishing. It seems pretty obvious by now that information is a key ingredient to animation of the machine. We mirror nature. The Bible says we transition, like a Caterpillar into a butterfly. Again, just compare us to nature.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by randyvs

 

So what is your take on the whole garden of eden? Some hidden place on earth, or another realm or dimension so to speak? That was always one of the other angles I liked to think about and imagine.

reply to post by TKDRL


Good thoughts, keep em coming.

By eating the fruit they went in the 3rd dimension, losing their direct connection to the god consciousness.
Actually by eating the fruit they started the journey of experiencing oneself by being apart from the creator and then becoming a creator and creating themselves.
The fruit is a symbol for the end of the beginning, the end of concentrated life energy, like summer.
Then after summer comes autumn, the beginning of the end. What happens in autumn is that the life force reatreats back to the original life force, that of the creator.
Winter is the death of the matter that the lifeforce inhabited, because at death the life force has fully retreated.

When this lifeforrce has gone through the spring-summer-autumn-winter cycle of a particular creation, it now has a status aparte so to speak. It has become a Soul.
I suspect that this journey of sould starts at the most primitive energy vibrations, workjng its way up through more complex energy patterns.
This structure or tree can be explained like the pyramid (no coincedence)

All lifeforce goes through these 4 stages of creation, and these can be represented like a pyramid, with 4 sides.
Each pyramid after the end of a cycle begins a new journey on the bottom of the next bigger pyramid.
The bigger the pyramid the more complex the energy involves gets. Each part in the the pyramid has its own specific part to play.