(Confirmed!) We're hearing that police have joined the rally in WI after being asked to disperse th

This makes me feel that there is some hope out there. Things are going to be a little different thean tptb expect, but rest assured, they probably have a "plan B".

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
They may not "deserve" to feel this pain, but they damn sure have no right to expect the rest of society to feel any level of pain just so they can keep their bells and whistles while the rest of the machine crumbles to dust.

Thats called "the sour grapes theory of union busting."

So because we let them run us into the ground, we should ensure that the people who brought us all up out of the sweatshops in the first place, the union people, should crumble into the dust with us? Im not a crab in a bucket. And I dont feel that everyone should suffer if I do. I want my fellow American to do well, so that we have some leverage with which to rebuild our economy.

Its our collective fault this machine is crumbling. The sour grapes theory just makes it more likely we will never ever see a true recovery, because for this economy to truly recover, we need to shut some doors. We need some protectionist policy. We are a big enough market that we can shut some doors and allow ourselves the chance to rebuild, with conditions more favorable to AMERICANS, including small AMERICAN companies, and stop the rape of the US by multinationals.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


hello ats. new member here but have been lurking in the shadows off and on for a while now. and i just don't understand supporting any of this union junk! i have to pay health car and pension for government employees ?
why ? why don't they pay for mine ? i help pay their bills why don't they pay mine. i don't get it. i also have to pay for the electic company's employees retirement and health care ? i call bs. i bet i could afford a huge power sucking television , if i could afford my electic bill (i know the gov' doesn't pay the electric co. and others such as that just trying to make a point) teachers paying 1% of their health and letting the people pay 99% (if those #'s are right,i think they are). is unjust to say the least !

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Everything you just posted could work for or against unions. Wisconsin (among other states) is attempting to shut a door from which heat is escaping, the union's entitlement door.

You want my honest opinion? I am concerned about my family and myself first and forehand. When times are good for us, then my concerns turn towards the rest of America. When I see my family's budget hurting, that is my primary focus. Full disclosure: I make my primary living designing infrastructure. When I see needed projects canceled (and by "needed" I really mean "needed", I do understand that not all infrastructure projects meet the cost/benefit analysis, an example of a poor use of tax dollars is the national high speed rail, for instance) because of budget concerns but, at the same time, see public employees retiring at 55 with 100% of their average last 2 years' wages or getting a raise in the middle of austerity measures being taken everywhere else purely because of some strong arm "negotiated" union employment contract, I see a major problem.

reply to post by the5thcape


Are you American? Just curious.

Because some of your questions sound like you really havent been here very long. These particular workers work for the government, so their salaries are paid for by taxes. And they themselves are tax payers too, lets not forget that. They pay their own salaries as well.

If you do not work for the government, they do not pay your salary, or benefits with their tax dollars. But they MIGHT pay your salary and benefits with their spending, by buying the product or service the company you work for offers.

get of your butts and go to your state capitols and start asking questions-why are we at war-where are the jobs?? many other questions like 911 have to be answered? go

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


100% american lived here for 43 yrs!

all i am saying is why do i have to pay for gov' health and pensions and so on . those jobs were chosen by those people as i chose my own job . i don't look for a hand out, i pay my own bills! maybe taxes would be lower.maybe if cable company's and electric and so on (again i know those last ones aren't gov employees) didn't need to make 45 dollars an hr. my bills would be lower . just saying. i think only people that support this are union people. if someone non union supports them then i wouldn't believe it either, because this is the interzweb and nothing can really be verified !

p.s. i live in taxachusetts so maybe thats why i'm so angry about this. do some digging into taxachusetts if you really wanna learn about tax dollars being wasted !

I'm going to keep my input here short and simple....

Collective Bargaining Rights = Democracy

Or am I mistaken here???

Originally posted by burdman30ott6

You want my honest opinion? I am concerned about my family and myself first and forehand. When times are good for us, then my concerns turn towards the rest of America.

You should have cared a little more about America and your fellow citizens over the last couple decades then. Because if you wait until it is biting you in the butt, its a little late by then. A lot of our nations problems are caused by exactly this. "Its all about me and mind immediate family and friends."

Its not. It cant be that in a democracy if you want democracy to work. What happens to the people around you matters, because you might be next.

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
When I see my family's budget hurting, that is my primary focus. Full disclosure: I make my primary living designing infrastructure. When I see needed projects canceled (and by "needed" I really mean "needed", I do understand that not all infrastructure projects meet the cost/benefit analysis, an example of a poor use of tax dollars is the national high speed rail, for instance)

Im sorry things are tight for your family. I do hope you learn some compassion for others, but I am sorry you are having to tighten your belt too.

So you are just basically hoping some other families have to lose their benefits, their pay, and their rights, so you dont have to lose yours? And on top of that these people have agreed to sacrifice pay and benefits, (which would free that spending up for your infrastructure projects) and you want them to lose the right to ever bargain that back in the future when we do well again.

You should have been fighting the people who dont want to pay taxes to use our infrastructure. The people who want to use America, her laws, her resources, her military, her police forces, her infrastructure to become obscenely wealthy and who have been laughing all the way to the bank during this economic nightmare. Thats my opinion. Not turning on your fellow person who is in the same shoes you are, and only wants to take care of their families too.

Originally posted by the5thcape

all i am saying is why do i have to pay for gov' health and pensions and so on . those jobs were chosen by those people as i chose my own job .

They chose those jobs in part, I am sure, because of the benefits. Im not sure what part of "they work for the government, and so their salaries and benefits are paid with tax dollars" you dont understand. Who did you think paid the salaries and benefits to government workers? Thats why I had to ask if you were American. You dont even seem to have a basic understanding of how our government works.

Originally posted by the5thcape
i don't look for a hand out, i pay my own bills! maybe taxes would be lower.maybe if cable company's and electric and so on (again i know those last ones aren't gov employees) didn't need to make 45 dollars an hr. my bills would be lower .

You seem like a nice guy. Just under informed on how stuff works. Have you ever considered that if a cable company would be satisfied with holding profit steady or even a small cut in profit your bills might be lower too?

For instance, I dont know who your cable provider is, but lets say it was DIrect TV.

Their profits increased last year.

www.latimes.com...

Last year, revenue grew 12 percent to $24.1 billion from $21.6 billion. Net income grew to $2.2 billion, or $2.30 per share, from $942 million, or 95 cents per share. Adjusted to exclude one-time items, profits rose to $2.48 per share from $1.44 in the previous year.

So its not your cable guys salary that is making your bills high. Its the greed of the people on Wall Street, and the CEO who is making $33 MILLION dollars in his 3 year pay package. You are mad at the wrong people.

You know WHY you are mad at the wrong people? Its because the people you SHOULD be mad at spend time and money making you fight your own kind instead of them. Because while the poor and middle classes fight among themselves, no one really pays attention to how much money is flowing upward into the bank accounts of the super wealthy.

Because while America is going down the toilet, and Americans are cutting each others throats for jobs, and hoping other people lose their jobs, benefits, etc., so that they dont, the rich are merrily getting richer.


Never had it so good How much longer can corporate America keep on delivering bumper increases in profits?

The current profit-reporting season is shaping up to be one of the best ever. For non-financial firms in the S&P 500, earnings per share are now higher than they have been for at least a decade. With over half of the companies in the S&P 500 having reported, profits in 2010 were up by 17% compared with 2009. (The year-on-year increase is far greater if financial firms are included, since they plunged in 2009 and then rebounded spectacularly.)

This is very interesting. This could very well snowball and become a major problem for any governor who wants try this in their state. I don't think the people who work for unions in this country are going to stand idle while republicans try to break their unions. If it comes down to removing these protesters by force or blood shed, than we may be looking at a nation wide union strike and protests across the country. I guess the ball is in the governor's court. Is he willing to open Pandora's box?

reply to post by somsom


democracy is mob rule. 49%-51%

a republic is a super majority like 80%-20%

So yea, collective bargaining is like a democracy.

wiki definition:

Wiki

The right to collectively bargain is recognized through international human rights conventions. Article 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights identifies the ability to organize trade unions as a fundamental human right.[3] Item 2(a) of the International Labour Organization's Declaration on Fundamental Principles and Rights at Work defines the "freedom of association and the effective recognition of the right to collective bargaining" as an essential right of workers.[4]

In June 2007 the Supreme Court of Canada extensively reviewed the rationale for regarding collective bargaining as a human right. In the case of Facilities Subsector Bargaining Association v. British Columbia, the Court made the following observations:

The right to bargain collectively with an employer enhances the human dignity, liberty and autonomy of workers by giving them the opportunity to influence the establishment of workplace rules and thereby gain some control over a major aspect of their lives, namely their work... Collective bargaining is not simply an instrument for pursuing external ends…rather [it] is intrinsically valuable as an experience in self-government... Collective bargaining permits workers to achieve a form of workplace democracy and to ensure the rule of law in the workplace. Workers gain a voice to influence the establishment of rules that control a major aspect of their lives.[5]

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

of course i understand how government works , why do you think i'm so pissed ! i know exactly what you are saying. my point is why do i have to pay for that stuff ? why do they get those perks on tax payer dollars? it seems very unfair. it's ok that a teacher in wi makes 60k for 180 days of work , all kinds of taxbreaks when they file , unemployment in the summer while they landscape and paint houses under the table , and the people of WI have to pay for their health and pensions? c'mon now ...

please quote the exact part of that statement is fair.

also the greed of cable and electic at the top levels is so high because the greed at the bottom is so high , crap rolls down hill !

Originally posted by the5thcape

also the greed of cable and electic at the top levels is so high because the greed at the bottom is so high , crap rolls down hill !

Ok then.

Lets try this one. You dont live in Wisconsin, so you arent paying their salaries. Only people who live in that state are. Is that better?

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


ummmmmm i think you know what i meant, it is all across the country , doesn't matter where you live. my taxes pay here for the same reasons they are paid in WI ! it's all BS. right across the board . and please answer my question about the teachers , show me where it's fair ...

reply to post by the5thcape


I don't know about your state but here in Kalifornia teachers can no longer claim unemployement during the summer years as they have definate employement to return to.
It has been that way for at least 11 years that i can guarantee, cuz during the summer months my wife has had to find other employement, however, she is definately not making 60k a year, that i am sure of.
I do however stand behind the unions, if the districts cannot stand by their contracts, then maybe they should default and leave that line of business and allow another business to move into that territory, one that can run a business in the black.
You all do know that districts are private companies, right?
Yep they're the ones who been raping our wallets in the name of our children, and it ain't the teachers reaping all of the cash, just look one level higher and up from there.
But a nationwide union strike would just rock i think.

Well I'm just glad everyone has been keeping their cool. I'm hoping as much as we are all different in our beliefs that we can rise above other nations and show that we don't have to battle one another on the streets. As much as we all disagree with one another I think we can all agree that violence acted upon one another is unacceptable and if it ever happens it will in my opinion be a very sad day for this country and I hope I will never have to see or experience it. I think some form of compromise can be found.

forget all my other posts , i just got a government union job , gonna go work my 40 hrs , with a paid lunch , get almost free health care and only put in 2% of my pension and the stupid taxpayers will pay the rest all cause my union said so . and if no one likes that , too bad i will cry like a baby and kick and scream and picket until i get what i want . yeah for me ! I win !!!

If the police are part of the protests, there must be some major corruption going on!

Well then, America shall see revolution soon.

Because there's just no money to pay all the pensions and all the unions in the country.

This time it was only one state... what happens when the FEDs can't pay no more and the US becomes like Greece? Revolution is what will happen.