Atheist Ads on Buses Rattle Fort Worth

reply to post by tristar


I have always thought of Atheism as the disbelief in deities and supernatural in general....or at least of the opinion that no evidence exists to support belief in said deities and supernatural joo joo. That's what i class atheism as for me personally anyway, so that good enough.

Originally posted by Solomons
That's what i class atheism as for me personally anyway, so that good enough.

Yes, that's good enough as long as you're classifying it only for yourself. But when there are several people discussing it, for clarity, it's important that we have an agreed-upon definition.

There are spiritual atheists. People who believe in the supernatural and even an afterlife. They just don't believe in a deity. Just FYI.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I already did, I offered the one that is found in the dictionary. I am really kind of confused as to why we are discussing what we all want a word to mean. It already has a meaning. If I want to mean something other than Atheism as defined, I just use a different word. Around here, we just make up our own definitions? Sorry, this just all catches me way off guard. I find it hard to believe intelligent adults cannot discuss an article about two different groups without spending most of that time explaining what we all want words to mean in our own little worlds. Am I really crazy for suggesting we just go with the word as defined by the dictionary? Is that nuts, too much to ask, not appropriate for internet discussions?

I do not have a peronal definition for words because I did not realize laguage was so subjective. I have this dictionary full of definitions. I am going to go burn it now and write my own I guess.

reply to post by tristar


I have a friend who is Christian and blond. According to you, it is now safe for me to decide that christianity means something to do with light colored hair simply because that is my personal experience and association with those words. Gotcha!

Originally posted by Sinnthia
I already did, I offered the one that is found in the dictionary.

Sorry, I missed it, but now I see it. Thanks. I got mine from a different dictionary. Two different dictionaries give two slightly different meanings. Now what?

I am really kind of confused as to why we are discussing what we all want a word to mean.

I realize that words have meanings already. I've just seen so many discussions go on for days because the people didn't have an agreed-upon definition of a word. When people bring their own definitions into a discussion, it gets very confusing. I was trying to diffuse some of that confusion. In a nice way.

Am I really crazy for suggesting we just go with the word as defined by the dictionary?

No. You seem to be quite sane, if a bit sarcastic and maybe angry or frustrated. I can't say I blame you, though.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Sorry, I missed it, but now I see it. Thanks.

I got mine from a different dictionary. Two different dictionaries give two slightly different meanings. Now what?

May I ask what yours was and how it differs? I seem to have missed it if you posted it.

I realize that words have meanings already.

I've just seen so many discussions go on for days because the people didn't have an agreed-upon definition of a word. When people bring their own definitions into a discussion, it gets very confusing. I was trying to diffuse some of that confusion. In a nice way.

I did not realize that there was more than one way to interpret theism or a. I never see anyone debating the definition of theism on ATS so why does negating it cause all this trouble? It looks a lot like a bunch of people agreeing on what cancer is but arguing over the meaning of non-cancerous to me.

No. You seem to be quite sane, if a bit sarcastic and maybe angry or frustrated. I can't say I blame you, though.

LOL. I am frustrated just because this seems to happen in every thread I have looked at that contains anything about atheism. The actual topic gets burried in debate over how people percieve a word. I guess what frustrates me most though is that while you did as I did and looked it up, people actually take the time to post "what atheism means to me." That just kills me. What other words do these people apply such a rule to? I guess I am really just not used to and confounded by the idea that intelligent people will discuss any topic while admitting that they care not for how the words they use are defined and instead opt to use whatever personal meanings they wish. This is how we get stuff like "irregardless." I know it is a pet peve of mine but to be totally honest, I thought that suggesting using a dictionary would at most generate one response, not even more off topic discussion. Now I have become part of it and that is no better.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
May I ask what yours was and how it differs? I seem to have missed it if you posted it.

It was in the same post where I asked for yours. Here

I did not realize that there was more than one way to interpret theism or a.

Some people think atheists "believe in nothing" or "worship science" or "think life is meaningless". I'm not saying they're right. They just have the wrong information.

LOL. I am frustrated just because this seems to happen in every thread I have looked at that contains anything about atheism.

I understand. And agree. But you should be on a dog board where we discuss words like "alpha", "dominance" and "positive training" without having agreed-upon meanings! Whew! This is NOTHING!

Maybe this will help some people. Anyone who refuses to even acknowledge that given definition based on the etymology of the word itself is simply here to put forth an ideology and not actually discuss or engage anyone. Hopefully that can all be sifted out shortly and we can all move on without all the needless atheist bashing that is based on missunderstading.

Definition of Atheism

The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made — an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist. Sometimes this broader understanding is called "weak" or "implicit" atheism. Most good, complete dictionaries readily support this.

This even goes into the various definitions printed in different times and places. You will notice that no matter how the definition varies, the etymology never does. It always means WITHOUT DEITIES. The A is like NON and THEISM does little changing. It is all there.

Yes most Atheists proudly tell you that there is no god. That does not define atheism and I think the page above explains it far better than I could. It is just simply WITHOUT. That is it, that is all. It is not a denial, it is a lack of acknowledgement and those are two very different things.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


See I guess this is what confuses me. You use a dictionary and even offer up a link but not for Atheism but for a different word altogether. Why?

I ask because your source gives a different definition than your personal one, maybe only slightly but still, I am confused. Why use a dictionary and then not for the word at hand? I am crazy, aren't I?

Definition of ATHEISM
1archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity

That is your source.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
See I guess this is what confuses me. You use a dictionary and even offer up a link but not for Atheism but for a different word altogether. Why?

My definition of ATHEIST is from Merriam Webster, as well. I included a link to deity in case people didn't know what that meant. It happens that some people aren't familiar with the word.

ATHEIST
: one who believes that there is no deity

I am crazy, aren't I?

Just a little bit. (jk)

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It was in the same post where I asked for yours.

Here

So sorry, I should not have missed that but I did completely. Thanks.

Some people think atheists "believe in nothing" or "worship science" or "think life is meaningless". I'm not saying they're right. They just have the wrong information.

Exactly, I understand people have different ideas of what things mean. That is my problem. When I go out in the real world, people use words the way they want to, not how they actually should. People make up words and use them as if it makes them sound clever. People say stupid things and then expect praise. I was kind of hoping for a higher standard here. I guess it is silly but I just thought that at ATS if people were discussing topics, there would not be as many personal and sadly ignorant definitions for the same words being tossed around in discussions. I guess my expectations were a little high.

I understand. And agree. But you should be on a dog board where we discuss words like "alpha", "dominance" and "positive training" without having agreed-upon meanings! Whew! This is NOTHING!

LOL, I guess that is my thing. I was hoping that ATS would be one place where people would not attack beliefs based on beliefs about what things should be and not what they are. I guess I was just being silly.

Nevermind, you looked up atheist and i looked up atheism.

See, this is why I want us to just go with the given definition instead of CHOOSING to just define it ourselves, look how easily that little bit gets mixed up.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
I was hoping that ATS would be one place where people would not attack beliefs based on beliefs about what things should be and not what they are. I guess I was just being silly.

I, too, am disappointed at times, thinking ATS is somehow more advanced than other places and that means I won't encounter stupidity and ignorance. It's a constant struggle to fight ignorance, however. And ATS isn't immune to it. However, it's the best thing going, by FAR!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Well, I trust you. There are obviously signs of intelligence and vast information gathering abilities here that are greatly lacking elsewhere. I will try to leave it at this. The only reason it even stood out to me is because click on any thread about atheism on ATS right now and you will see within the first 5 pages the exact same scenario that bothered me so much here. This is just how it looks from standing about two steps behind the crowd.

"Hey, did you guys see this story about these bus signs?"
"Pfffft Atheists are all -bad, evil, wrong, stupid, ignorant, whatever- because they say my god does not exist."
"Well, actually not all of them. That is a poor generalization since many Atheists are actually Atheists simply because they have never even heard of your god, thought of your god, acknowledged your god, or began to imagine on their own your god. That is what defines them. Those that DENY are a subset of that."
"Not how I PERSONALLY DEFINE IT! They are all 'X' based on how I DEFINE IT."

To me, all intelligent discussion about the signs on th busses ended there. Sorry if that seems too critical but I did not think it would go on for this long.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
The only reason it even stood out to me is because click on any thread about atheism on ATS right now and you will see within the first 5 pages the exact same scenario that bothered me so much here. This is just how it looks from standing about two steps behind the crowd.

That's because of who starts 99% of the Atheist threads.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
reply to post by tristar

 

I have a friend who is Christian and blond. According to you, it is now safe for me to decide that christianity means something to do with light colored hair simply because that is my personal experience and association with those words. Gotcha!

edit on 15-12-2010 by Sinnthia because: (no reason given)

I think you may have misunderstood my post.

What i was pointing out is that the term "Atheist" is derived from the Greek word as you already know (ἄθεος). Given that God is represented as the supreme energy that has created everything and thus we of-course as materialistic as the human race has grown to be has at some pointed decided that God does not exist or anything beyond the scientific aspect of proof within a controlled scientific environment. As in the past and the present and in the future is what ultimately leads to the human race's re-structure. History constantly repeats itself and the human race constantly chooses to neglect the obvious markers.

Keep in mind, i myself am no bible drum bashing person. I am, very much in tune with today's society and its dependency on modern technology and its products for their survival. However, there comes a time when certain events happen that cannot be explained through a scientific conclusion and thus the thought of God enters the mind.

reply to post by tristar


But atheists don't decide that god(s) doesn't/don't exist - they simply do not form an opinion in the matter. It might be, but in the absence of any conclusive proof, an atheist has no reason to say that it is. That does not equate denial that it is - although many atheists (and non atheists) will deny something that there is evidence against, such as half the stories in the bible that some take to be absolute fact. That still does not equate saying "There is no God", it is just saying "That story is (censored)", and on the subject of God, not saying "there is a god", either.

EDIT:

Alternative to Merriam-Webster definition, the Oxford English Dictionary says:

One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God.

Which I suppose leaves it open for "I'm saying that there is no God" or "I'm not saying that there is a God"

So I now hide in shame for making a baseless assertion. (although... surely atheism, root words "a" approximates "without" and "theism" approximates, so far as I know, "belief in a deity(ies)", would mean "without belief in a deity(ies)", rather than "belief in no deity(ies)".)

Originally posted by Solomons
reply to post by tristar

 

I have always thought of Atheism as the disbelief in deities and supernatural in general....or at least of the opinion that no evidence exists to support belief in said deities and supernatural joo joo. That's what i class atheism as for me personally anyway, so that good enough.

edit on 15-12-2010 by Solomons because: (no reason given)

I see your point and respect that. For each person the translation and its implication to their very own existence is translated by every person individual comprehension of how one defines the Supreme Being and its affect on their own lives.

Originally posted by tristar
Given that God is represented as the supreme energy that has created everything and thus we of-course as materialistic as the human race has grown to be has at some pointed decided that God does not exist or anything beyond the scientific aspect of proof within a controlled scientific environment.

No, I think I got it. You believe that the idea of gods came first, then atheism. That makes no sense. There was a time before written language. There was a time before spoken language. There was a time before communication of any kind. There was a time before humans even existed. Atheism was the status quo until someone first made up the first god ever. God is not the norm, absence of such is. Someone had to fill that void that is atheism.

Originally posted by TheWill
Alternative to Merriam-Webster definition, the Oxford English Dictionary says:

One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God.

Which I suppose leaves it open for "I'm saying that there is no God" or "I'm not saying that there is a God"

So I now hide in shame for making a baseless assertion. (although... surely atheism, root words "a" approximates "without" and "theism" approximates, so far as I know, "belief in a deity(ies)", would mean "without belief in a deity(ies)", rather than "belief in no deity(ies)".)

edit on 17/12/2010 by TheWill because: (no reason given)

edit on 17/12/2010 by TheWill because: (no reason given)

I think the confusion is entering when the above happens as it has twice now in this thread. In the context of what "Atheism" means, you and BH defined "Atheist." Clearly someone who denies the existance of god can be defined as an Atheist however your understanding of the word "AtheiSM" could not be more spot on. It just means 'without gods' and that is it. I would expect the same confusion to arise in a discussion about what surgery meant if we kept defining surgeon instead of surgery.