If Jesus was God, why did he pray to himself?

reply to post by Joecroft

Jesus on the other hand, is telling us that he is a servant of God, and that to believe in him, is to believe in the one who sent him i.e. God/Father. Jesus doesn’t point towards himself, he points us in the direction of God/Father.

Hold on to that truth, friend.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


This is all the question requires. I'll take it as the truth and keep it for the rest of my life.

The Father of course. No one is claiming the Father isn't divine.

I have no need for this one, however. So I'm giving it back to you. May you find solace in your own truth.

Jesus's affirmation that His Father is the only true God to an Israelite society who was increasingly becoming Hellenized is NOT a rejection or denial of His divinity.

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Thank you! It's so great how people see other people. You can continue to believe what you want in life. I'm not stopping you! I could give one # about you or any of these punks on this website.

It looks like the only punk on here is you.

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by bijouramov

 

That is not truth! # the false messiah Jesus. Piece of # is disgusting!

If it's not the truth for you, then it is not the truth for you. No one can ever make you believe otherwise. Hold it, keep it, and by it you will rise or fall as God will reveal in His appointed time.

reply to post by jmdewey60

So, when he says the "True God", what he means is the same thing Ezra meant, which is the God who is true to keep His word.

By using your explanation, it would mean that Jesus is telling us in John 17:3 that the God he is praying to is the only God who is true and that all men can rest easy knowing he keeps His word. And that is correct! For once I completely agree with you.

And by accepting that God the Father is true in all His words. I also accept it when he said he does not change. When He tells me that He is spirit in nature then that is my truth. When He tells me that He is God and not a man then that is my truth. When He tells me that He does not nor will ever recognize anyone who claims to be a god different than Him or even someone who "allegedly" claims to act as God in His place...well, that is my truth.

reply to post by bijouramov

When He tells me that He does not nor will ever recognize anyone who claims to be a god different than Him or even someone who "allegedly" claims to act as God in His place...well, that is my truth

Feel free to quote some supporting scripture.
What I ran across while checking an earlier verse you posted was something about graven images.
Of course God would not allow people to worship an idol and think they are worshipping Him.
Jesus is un-created, being eternal, so he is allowed to take on the identity of God, of any sort of god he wishes including God the Father if it suites the purpose.
You, being a man do not know God other than how He was portrayed by Jesus and you being a mortal and a created being can not set rules on God or Gods because you do not even know what a God is.
That's just so much philosophy and the machinations of man and God does not have to abide by them.
God the God who existed when nothing else existed does not diminish by creating and does not wear out and will continue to exist after heaven and earth pass away. But that God is unknowable and unseeable and so He has a son who for all intents and purposes is God and is by rights, equal to the Father to all who are created by God, such as ourselves.
If you do not agree then you disagree with Jesus himself and the Apostles and every known Christian from the time of Christ, onward. So think what you want but whatever philosophy you have will get you nowhere and not acknowledging the Son as God leaves you behind in the plan of salvation. There is only one rescue boat coming by to pick you from the sinking ship and once you let it go without you then you sink and are taken by the abyss.

reply to post by jmdewey60

What I ran across while checking an earlier verse you posted was something about graven images. Of course God would not allow people to worship an idol and think they are worshipping Him.

I don't think it's me who has some explaining to do with regards to idolatry, friend. Why don't you ask those who not only parade graven images with utmost pomp, but also revere pieces of cloth, slivers of human bone, bread encased in gold...etc, and see how they explain it?

As to worshiping Jesus, well, Isn't that what God commands all men?

"Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil 2:9)

However, what you're trying to say is that if I believe that Jesus is a man, then I must be in direct violation of God's command which is:

“You shall have no other gods before me." (Deuteronomy 5:7)

But that is exactly my point! I don't worship Jesus as a god/God so how can you say that I'm violating God's commandment? On the other hand, God is explicit in his command when it comes to idolatry:

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them;" (Deuteronomy 5:8-9)

Do you worship graven images, friend? Do you recognize other gods besides the Father? I know I don't...

reply to post by bijouramov
Do you have someone else in the house who you can have read this (your post, above) out loud to you to make sure you actually meant what you wrote.
I don't want to be mean to you and I feel I should give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you have some sort of dyslexia to where you reverse things.
I had a girlfriend like that, to where she would say something and I knew what she meant but she would say everything completely backwards. Poor thing but there was nothing to be done.
It wasn't until she watched a video tape I made of her that she realized what others had to deal with.
I think you are probably sincere and want to do what is right but I am afraid that you are learning your theology from a TV evangelist, one who will say things like, "Send me your money and God will bless you with wealth."
Such a person is not to be trusted and when someone from a foreign country comes along and says, "Here, we will pay you to convince your followers that if they support Israel, God will bless them.", then he will take the money and say whatever they want because he had already compromised his principles long ago.
If you think you can find salvation by going back to Sinai, then think again and read your good old New Testament again.
This theology you are espousing is not traditional Christianity and is something that has come about since the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx, and that was when the formula for the world takeover was made. The stated plan, and this is not crazy conspiracy theory but documented fact, was to create Zionism and a Jewish state to be the leaders to bring about this new world order. This is when these foreign thoughts came around where the Jews were the promised people and Christianity was just a blip in history that would pass away. Don't fall for it.
The people who brought about the formation of modern Israel were secular communist Jews who went against the religious Jews who believed and still believe that men were not to bring about a Messianic age, but God. These secular Jews created their own god and made a state based on communist ideology to be their Messiah.
If it furthered their goal, they would feel absolutely no compunction to subvert every religion in the world, including the very religion they use to cloak themselves in to hide their true intents. They have found willing dupes to go along for personal gain and have controlled publishing houses to promote religious books and study Bibles that introduced this new theology as if it had some sort of Christian background, that the Jews were to return to their former glory under Solomon, and that was to end up ruling the world.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Seriously, friend, I don't know why you would insist on saying that I am supporting the views of Jews.

If you think you can find salvation by going back to Sinai,

What the heck are you talking about? I don't care about the Jews, man! God doesn't care about their affairs anymore, that's the whole reason why Jesus was sent to the world in the first place!

In a nutshell, the Jews (this is going to attract bashing I'm sure, especially R_R) no longer have exclusive rights to be called God's people, when Jesus came and taught the Gospel, he extended the offer to the Gentiles because the Jews have been messing with the commandments of God since the time of Moses.

I think you began misinterpreting me when I mentioned something regarding circumcision, right? I wasn't talking about the promotion of physical circumcision as the means for a person to be considered as a real Christian at all. What I was trying to say about it, is that the Jews kept on insisting to the Gentiles that physical circumcision was necessary to be a true follower of Christ since Christ was a Jew. But Paul understood what they did not! That the real circumcision cannot be achieved just because you had the foreskin of your thingy removed, in fact it is irrelevant, but by a person's adherence to what Christ taught. That is the real circumcision that was twisted by the Jews since the time of Moses, or Abraham, I'm not sure. During the time of the apostles a scenario involving that dispute would be like this:

Jewish Christians: We are the true disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ because we are physically circumcised!
Paul: Do you obey the commandments?
Jewish Christians: Well, not all the time, no. But we are physically circumcised!
Paul: Doesn't matter. Didn't matter to Jesus. Stop harassing the Gentiles into undergoing a ritual that benefits them nothing.
Jewish Christians: But we are physically circumcised...
Paul: Yeah, yeah, whatever.

And this is how you misunderstand me:

Me: If we believe in Christ and obey his teaching, then we undergo the REAL circumcision, which the Jews misunderstood all this time.
You: You Zionist! You synagogue of Satan! You trickster of souls!
Me: Hey, wait a minute---
You: You are a co-conspirator of those Jewish people who want to usher a new world order!
Me:

If you still think I'm in support of this thing you call Zionism (I'm not even familiar with it) then I don't know what else to say to you. Heck, I don't even know why I'm explaining myself to you!

reply to post by bijouramov

Jewish Christians: We are the true disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ because we are physically circumcised!
Paul: Do you obey the commandments?
Jewish Christians: Well, not all the time, no. But we are physically circumcised!
Paul: Doesn't matter. Didn't matter to Jesus. Stop harassing the Gentiles into undergoing a ritual that benefits them nothing.
Jewish Christians: But we are physically circumcised...
Paul: Well, why don't you become ultra-righteous and cut the entire thing off?

There..

fixed.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
You're not seeing the entire picture. The New Testament misquotes verses from the Torah and goes against the Torah.

Well, I have already mentioned 2 points, where Jesus doesn’t necessarily conflict with the Torah; 3 points, if you include my last post. I can see how certain parts of Christianity conflict with the Torah but not Jesus. And like I mentioned on the other thread, there are certain parts of Christianity, which I do not accept anyway.

As for the New Testament misquotes and the other reasons you believe it goes against the Torah, it’s a pretty big subject area. And seeing as your OP question has been answered, I suggest you set up a new thread about it, addressing the exact specific points and misquotes you believe go against the Torah. I’m pretty sure you well get some excellent opinions from the majority of Christian denominations on ATS.

(Band Note) - The Above was my original reply to Romantic_Rebel before I found out he was band…
Although it now it appears as though Romantic_Rebel may also be Blue_Mage, but I’m not sure…


- JC

reply to post by bijouramov

. . .think I'm in support of this thing you call Zionism (I'm not even familiar with it). . .

Maybe not the term, but how about the object of this belief, the modern state of Israel? Are you saying that you do not support Israel?
I didn't say you were the synagogue of Satan, I said that if your church teaches that Jesus is not somehow god, then it is not technically a church but the synagogue of Satan.
What got me to think you were a zionist is the statement that we need to swear an oath of allegiance to the Old Testament God.
There are some interesting little factoids here and there in the O.T. about God, that He created the earth and everything in it. That God is a holy god and has high standards of purity for anyone wanting to be a priest to Him. Other than that, not to much, and a lot of politics and things. By the time of Jesus whatever the religion was, that had to do with a temple type priestly service to the shrine of that god, had deteriorated to something that was a tool of the elite to suppress the masses and to make themselves a profit if they could control access to the then mythical god who had not been seen or heard for centuries.
Jesus reversed that situation by saying he did know God and in a firsthand way because he dwelt in heaven with God who, on top of everything else, was his father. When confronted with different instances of being accused of making himself a god, he did not deny it. Now, If you want to just ignore all that and say whatever we as Christians have thought about Jesus is wrong and now you have some brand new light on the subject, then you nullify two thousand years of history and make the coming of Christ as completely useless. So, are you the new Moses? If so, let's see your miracles, otherwise you are just some missguided person with an opinion based on nothing more substantial than a passing whim.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Maybe not the term, but how about the object of this belief, the modern state of Israel? Are you saying that you do not support Israel?

Oh man, you are hopeless...

When confronted with different instances of being accused of making himself a god, he did not deny it.

Verse/s please.

otherwise you are just some missguided person with an opinion

Merely my opinion? I let the Bible explain itself, unlike you who tries to explain it through the opinions of "theology experts", through the general opinion of the public, reinforcing your belief with the things you hear from podcasts, etc. You propose that whoever does not believe in Jesus' divinity is not a Christian, you suggest this, you criticize that, and so on and so forth, like you're an authority when it comes to things about God. You say Jesus is god, then by all means go on believing that, you want to believe your God within a box theory, well, I hope your belief brings you nothing but joy for the rest of your life, either way it means nothing to me. What. you. think. is. of. no. consequence. to. me. Is that clear enough to you, Mr. Sophistication?

reply to post by bijouramov

Oh man, you are hopeless...

And you wonder why I keep bringing it up. It's because you refuse to deny it.

Verse/s please.

What have we been talking about this whole thread?

. . .through the general opinion of the public,. . .

So that's what you call the belief of every Christian for the last two thousand years until you came along to rectify things? It's not just my opinion. There have been lots of heresies in the history of the church but making Jesus an ordinary man goes beyond that. I have to think that takes it beyond the pale, and into some other religion.

I found this while researching the Torah

I thought it quite poignant for this thread…

Be like Reggie White. Seek the Truth



- JC

reply to post by jmdewey60

And you wonder why I keep bringing it up. It's because you refuse to deny it.

Refuse to deny what? That I'm conspiring with this paranoid delusion of yours? Take your medications, friend. Follow your doctor's advice. Go ahead...swallow the pill...

What have we been talking about this whole thread?

Err..you've been talking about Gods in boxes, Jewish conspirators trying to usher a new world order, the crap you hear from podcasts, a Christian church being the synagogue of Satan, Christians who don't agree with your point of view are not Christians but are impressionable ignorants, that it's possible to be both Christian and Buddhist, etc. when the OP is why did Jesus pray to himself?

So again:

When confronted with different instances of being accused of making himself a god, he did not deny it.

PROVE IT. Let me see the verses FROM the Bible. Let me see the explanations FROM the Bible.

So that's what you call the belief of every Christian for the last two thousand years until you came along to rectify things?

The belief of every Christian for the last two thousand years...uh-huh. PROVE IT.

reply to post by Joecroft

Israel Today was given access to many of the rabbi’s manuscripts, written in his own hand for the exclusive use of his students. Most striking were the cross-like symbols painted by Kaduri all over the pages. In the Jewish tradition, one does not use crosses. In fact, even the use of a plus sign is discouraged because it might be mistaken for a cross.

But there they were, scribbled in the rabbi’s own hand. When we asked what those symbols meant, Rabbi David Kaduri said they were “signs of the angel.” Pressed further about the meaning of the “signs of the angel,” he said he had no idea. Rabbi David Kaduri went on to explain that only his father had had a spiritual relationship with God and had met the Messiah in his dreams roadturn.com...

And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?-Acts2

reply to post by bijouramov

The belief of every Christian for the last two thousand years...uh-huh. PROVE IT.

That's just ordinary accepted fact (that Christians have historically accepted Jesus Christ as god, in some way of explaining what that means exactly) and does not need me to prove it. If you think otherwise, it is you who needs to produce some sort of proof.
Other people than myself have been posting on this thread and the subject has come up to where the Jews would want to kill Jesus for claiming to be god. That is not what is in dispute here. What you need to do is provide proof yourself that Jesus backed down from the Jews and claimed that in fact he was not God.
What you are calling my paranoia could be resolved by you stating that in fact you do not support the modern state of Israel. Think about the woman at the well story, where Jesus is in Samaria and the woman asks about is salvation of the Jews. The explanation from Jesus is that the time is coming and is at hand when there is no place that defines God but we will worship Him in spirit and in truth. Accepting a state in occupied Palestine as representing God, then you just reversed what Jesus said and makes us all Samaritans, wishing we could be saved, like those Jews.