SOme of you simply don't understand what illegal immigration does to this country

Speaks for itself

SB1070 is in FULL Effect

www.youtube.com...

That idea would be great, if it worked.
Right now, Immigration (INS) has the lowest budget of all departments, illegals get arrested, some wait 2 years and can't get shipped back because no one will finance it, I had a friend of mine that called up the immigration to report a whole wharehouse of mexicans working down the street, they just laughed at him on the phone saying "we get calls like that all the time, but we have no enforcement to cover even half of that"...
What is the point of law if we have no inforcement?

I should say, they're not a bunch of mexicans with no education and unskilled, most of the construction jobs, landscaping, bruteforce work around the big cities are done by immigrants, the big time contractors have most of their workers hiding behind someone else's name and SSN...
They are good at what they do, and even the Union doesn't get these jobs for being bunch of hackers at work (all americans)

Who rebuilt New Orleans? the illegals
Who #ed it up again with an oi spill?

I know quite a few immigrants that work good, have good pay, even more than 40, 50/hour, while a good percentage of us americans just drop out of college, settle for minimum wages, just too lazy to do something with our lives...

I'm sorry for whoever thinks that illegal immigrants fly planes into buildings, the hijackers had bank accounts, credit cards, social security, went to flying school here in america, etc.

The best access we have to the illegals for this plan to work out is the employers, but is it worth for them? They're the only ones that would be able to ID them and report them, but they are exactly the part of america that needs the illegals the most.

They want to be here, hidden. Back in their countries they pay way more taxes, make way less money, buy crappy things there paying high prices, and are free, but unhappy. WHY? because america is in their country exploring them, taking the resources and then we feel bothered for having them here?

Maybe we should just change our country's name to the UESA (United Entitled States of America).
The only reason you hear "they do the jobs that Americans won't" is due to the fact that most Americans forgot what real work is all about. If I were to lose my job and the Government was not willing to give me over 90 WEEKS of unemployment I would be willing to do ANY job to support my family and I do mean ANY job.
The problem we have is that we think as Americans we are entitled to a safety net. Most think that if they graduate college then they are entitled to a high paying job. If you lose your job well, you are entitled to benefits UNTIL you find a SUITABLE job. If your back hurts and you have a good lawyer then you are entitled to disability for the rest of your life.
I am not saying that people don't get hurt and need programs like this but seriously how many get it that do not need it?
We as a NATION have become entitled and LAZY!
The ONLY people who should get Government asst. are our senior citizens and those that are truly disabled. We should take care of those that need it because they truly need it. Not because they make up an awesome voter base.

Originally posted by Come Clean

Originally posted by chemistry guy
I totally understand what its doing to this country, I have friends in AZ. They are very concerned and live in fear daily.

Minorities have lived in fear since 1492.

Indeed. And as the original "Homeland Security," they've also been fighting terrorism since that same year.

Somewhat off topic - my apologies

What will happen in the agricultural field when the United States deports all illegal immigrants? Are we as citizens able to go out there in the hot sun to pick fruits and vegetables while being payed in a fixed-ratio? Imagine how food produce prices will sky rocket! Illegal immigrants are the main reason that our food produce is cheap. I doubt anyone is willing to work in the fields with no benefits and under minimum wage.

It irritates me when people say that illegal immigrants take up all the jobs. Well do you have any idea what jobs they take on?! People scapegoat illegal immigrants because of their own failure to move up the stratification system. The jobs that people usually compete for are low-paying jobs. The work that illegal immigrants do allow their employers to produce goods and services that are profitable for the industry and make CONSUMER GOODS MORE AFFORDABLE.
There is always a positive economic impact due to illegal immigration. The nation benefits from it in both economic booms and recessions.
"In 2005, the Social Security Administration identified thousands of unauthorized workers contributing about $7 BILLION to the fund..."(Porter 2005).
"About 70 percent of illegal immigrant workers pay taxes of one type or another." (Schaefer).
Lets not forget or ignore the fact that illegal immigrants have consumer power too.
"The total goods and services they consume ... plus all they produce for their employers, is close to about $800 billion."(UCLA's Raul Hinojosa, Assoc. Professor)
Yes they do send remittances to their countries, around $300 billion, but that is only 10% of their wages (International Fund for Agricultural Development 2007). "That leaves about $400-450 billion of that is consumptive capacity staying in the U.S (Assoc. Prof. Raul Hinojosa)".

I don't see it as slavery since the illegal immigrants aren't FORCED to do the work.

Originally posted by Jeep4x4
1. I don't know how I can provide proof that american workers are willing to do the jobs illegals perform. I am not sure if by what i stated that the burden of proof is on me... but then again, I guess someone else can't provide proof that illegals actually are performing jobs that americans won't do.

The proof that Americans won't take those jobs can be seen when looking at unemployment and available jobs. Data is available, but I will have to dig for it. But even some of my own children consider certain jobs "beneath" them. Where this came from I have no idea - as a single mom and full-time college student I worked my butt off to provide for them. Remembering this doesn't humble them much, but I digress....

2. My comment about an individual's goal in life being for profit wasn't intended to be taken that way. I was trying to avoid my example of "employer incentive to higher illegals making sense in a capitalist society" turning into a debate or criticism about the evilness of american businesses. I meant that people in general will use a capitalist mindset to achieve their goals. Most people, including myself, don't have a goal of amassing money. Most people would want happiness, security in finances and shelter, vacationing, living somewhere beautiful, doing good... but essentially money is a large component in achieving any of those... for most people.

Yes, this country is based on a melting pot of economic and social philosophies, as well as cultures and ideas. We are not, haven't, nor ever will be reflective of one specific theory. Like it or not, there are elements of socialism, Marxism, capitalism, corporatism and even communism in our society - not necessarily in the order. All have their merits; all have their faults. When someone starts shouting "You're a socialist!" or "You're a Communist!" because of a viewpoint on a particular issue, rest assured he or she has stopped listening and and will accept none other than his or her own viewpoint.

That is excellent you are a good person who wouldn't put profits above your employees but from personal experiences, most small and big business do not share your sentiment.

1) Thanks, and 2) that's really an irresponsible shame.

3. Not that it matters but I rarely use wikipedia and chide students of mine when they use it, but felt that for the purpose of quickly finding out which countries have open boarders, it worked well enough to illustrate that so very few nations use what many people commenting on this topic seem to feel is the better option.

It does matter, and it's actually a good point. I teach (part-time) as well and devote an entire quarter to research and online sources. While I don't not want to see Wikipedia as a direct source, it is an excellent place to quickly find credible and relevant sources. And as you note, it generally serves well in this environment.

4. I'll fall back on my previously stated first point, illegal immigrants are here illegally. When caught they should be deported and follow the proper procedures to become legal citizens. We should punish/correct illegal behavior, not reward/ignore it.

On this we agree 100%, provided we are not excluding the source fueling the problem - employers. They are breaking the law, and as U.S. citizens and/or entities, should probably held to a higher standard than the immigrants they exploit for profit.

i like the topic, but fundamentally the largest problem witht the solution that is proposed is that, If you make a certain group carry cards to identify themselves in the country as citizens then to make it constitutionally acceptable, then all People will have to carry cards.

The real problem is that if your born one mile to the left or right of an imaginary line detirmines the futur options you will have in life.

I think what they should ask is if the community will be able to support the new costs assosiated with this endeavor.

reply to post by Jezus


Mexico has always been unstable. Why don't you try learning something about history.

Everyone wants higher wages, and illegals are no different than anyone else. It is their illegal status that forces them to accept lower wages. Your refusal to recognize this demonstrates your need to cling to unrealistic fantasies. The nature of humanity always looks for a better deal. Try taking an honest look at reality.

I have taken more than a few economic classes, why don't you take a few, or maybe you have and just don't grasp the concepts.

If Mexicans were so good for the economy, then why is Mexico still a third world nation. You are completely clueless.

I am not attacking Mexicans, I am pointing out how illegal immigration is bad for the U.S. economy, and if you had a clue you would know that Mexicans are not the only illegals.

Your weak argument is what is disgusting.

Clearly you have no desire to give the people of the U.S. and credit for their accomplishments. This is why you must continually relate to the discussion as one of prejudice, because that is your own perspective. Stop being such a bigot.

reply to post by sjrily


U.S. Americans took those jobs before they were overwhelmed with illegal immigrants, which proves that there are Americans willing to take those jobs.

They only want to work in a market that isn't fixed by illegal practices such as illegal immigration.

How hard is this to understand?

reply to post by poet1b


It's not hard to understand your assumption at all!

Nor are the facts.

The press and congress are so good at passing the buck. The truth is illegal immigration into the USA is just a result of a bigger problem. When solving any problem the first thing that must be done is to define the problem. In the case of illegal Immigration theproblem is the Federal Government Welfare programs. If they did not exist then illegal immigration would not exist in the same capacity. Mexicans are only trying for a better life. US Gov't knows this and continues to provide. This is why nothing ever gets done about it. As long as the welfare state exists so will the illegal immigrantion problem.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Jezus

 

Illegal immigration did not destroy the economy alone, and that is not what I said.

Illegal immigration is the biggest problem.

The fact, are there and they have been clearly established on this thread.

But I am sure you are not going to allow the facts get in the way of your opinion.

Wages go down and housing prices go up, and the banks make more and more money. This is the problem.

Actually, the clearly-established primary cause of the housing crash was mortgage derivatives, which are financial 'products,' and have nothing whatsoever to do with illegal immigration - nor does the unfettered capitalism which brought down the rest of the economy.

Please do some research - or please point me to a credible, unbiased source that demonstrates how illegal immigration is responsible for this economic crisis.

It is simply true: illegals are a cheap source of virtually slave labor - they are scared to death of the policia, and are treated worse than a citizen in prison is.

It's no big secret in here in Florida that the big fruit growers fight immigration
reform / law enforcement tooth and nail, just so they can have this labor force under the table at 3% of the cost of legals.

It is still slavery and it is wrong.

reply to post by fred call

That is sick the amount of money being paid out to illegals and refugees. I wonder if the refugees in australia get the same amounts of payments. If they do that would account for the high risks they take to get here in shonky boats.

I have noticed that the refugees are doing very well with their cars and clothes. I cant afford to buy what they have. Plus I have noticed that they seem to get into business easily. Places where the locals are not touching. Tell me , can we be refugees into the US and get those payments. We are white Australians. Is that a problem.

reply to post by sjrily


No, the problem isn't just the mortgage derivatives, the problem is that money to buy a house was loaned to people who couldn't afford to buy that house. All this money was loaned on the assumption that wages and salaries would continue to rise.

The flood of immigration ended the rise in wages, so all those mortgage payments could not be met, and the whole house of cards collapsed.

In addition, it was the flood of immigrants who drove up the demand for housing.

It all goes back to supply and demand.

Not to mention that most of those houses were built by unskilled workers and are nothing but crap. I know many people who bought those homes, and they have more problems than you can shake a stick at.

Anybody who has been paying attention can clearly see how quality is going down the tubes.

Illegals in my small town is 60 per cent! Did not used to be that way. When I pick up my grandson from school, more than 60 percent of the children are Hispanic.
Some of these people are my friends.. and one girl told me most of her family is illegal. Also they don't want to participate in local civic matters or any of the annual events. Summer camps have been organized by what some are calling whiteys. The day I took my grandson in to sign up for the first day, I was one of 4 "whiteys" and 1 black parent among 14 Hispanic Mothers with their children. Yes...I did count, because I thought there would be more of a mixture.

There are lots of Hispanic Mothers pushing a baby in a stroller all over town and getting ready to have another...

I am not being prejudice, I am just telling you the situation here. This town is on its last leg and is struggling to stay afloat.

By the way..Let me ask you a question. Who did all the work before all the illegal immigrants came in and saved us?????

Originally posted by HSDA83
That idea would be great, if it worked.
Right now, Immigration (INS) has the lowest budget of all departments, illegals get arrested, some wait 2 years and can't get shipped back because no one will finance it, I had a friend of mine that called up the immigration to report a whole wharehouse of mexicans working down the street, they just laughed at him on the phone saying "we get calls like that all the time, but we have no enforcement to cover even half of that"...
What is the point of law if we have no inforcement?

I should say, they're not a bunch of mexicans with no education and unskilled, most of the construction jobs, landscaping, bruteforce work around the big cities are done by immigrants, the big time contractors have most of their workers hiding behind someone else's name and SSN...
They are good at what they do, and even the Union doesn't get these jobs for being bunch of hackers at work (all americans)

Who rebuilt New Orleans? the illegals
Who #ed it up again with an oi spill?

I know quite a few immigrants that work good, have good pay, even more than 40, 50/hour, while a good percentage of us americans just drop out of college, settle for minimum wages, just too lazy to do something with our lives...

I'm sorry for whoever thinks that illegal immigrants fly planes into buildings, the hijackers had bank accounts, credit cards, social security, went to flying school here in america, etc.

The best access we have to the illegals for this plan to work out is the employers, but is it worth for them? They're the only ones that would be able to ID them and report them, but they are exactly the part of america that needs the illegals the most.

They want to be here, hidden. Back in their countries they pay way more taxes, make way less money, buy crappy things there paying high prices, and are free, but unhappy. WHY? because america is in their country exploring them, taking the resources and then we feel bothered for having them here?

Border Patrol and INS aren't equipped for the problem, I agree. The purpose of the National Guard is to support military and civilian authorities, including law enforcement. THe guard is allowed to be called for local, state and national emergenicies as well as for civil emergencies. Urilizing the men and women of the national guard to help secure the borders and curtail the illegal immigration problem is a legal use for the guard. But per W in 2006 the national guard and the military are not allowed to be used in support of law enforcement. So we have a force of several hundred thousand that isn't in use to rectify the problem. Obama could change that mandate and revert them back to their original purpose which allows for sypport of law enforcement. Cmon Obama, fire off an executive order.

WHile you may know a few that have good jobs with good pay, I'm still a member of the New Orleans homebuilders Association. Most of the illegals are employed in construction, agriculture or day labor. The number our liveral senator gave us down here was 88% were below high school education level and about 92% were unskilled workers whose only work potential was day labor. The illegals DID NOT REBUILD NAWLINS. 12% of construction workers here are foreign born. That doesn't count LEGAL immigrants. 4% of our construction workers here in NOLA are illegals. Unemployment among const workers who are citizens in NOLA is 17%. Those 4% are taking jobs that Americans would take, could take and deserve.

Actually there were illegals flying planes into buildings. Overstaying your passport illegaly constitutes illegal immigration.

The big companies don't need illegals. They want them. They can pay a 3rd world labor cost and offer them 3rd world protection. Here's the story of an illegal construction worker.

The day after Librado Velasquez arrived on Staten Island after a long, surreptitious journey from his Chiapas, Mexico, home, he headed out to a street corner to wait with other illegal immigrants looking for work. Velasquez, who had supported his wife, seven kids, and his in-laws as a campesino, or peasant farmer, until a 1998 hurricane devastated his farm, eventually got work, off the books, loading trucks at a small New Jersey factory, which hired illegals for jobs that required few special skills. The arrangement suited both, until a work injury sent Velasquez to the local emergency room, where federal law required that he be treated, though he could not afford to pay for his care. After five operations, he is now permanently disabled and has remained in the United States to pursue compensation claims.

“I do not have the use of my leg without walking with a cane, and I do not have strength in my arm in order to lift things,” Velasquez said through an interpreter at New York City Council hearings. “I have no other way to live except if I receive some other type of compensation. I need help, and I thought maybe my son could come and work here and support me here in the United States.”

Velasquez’s story illustrates some of the fault lines in the nation’s current, highly charged, debate on immigration. Since the mid-1960s, America has welcomed nearly 30 million legal immigrants and received perhaps another 15 million illegals, numbers unprecedented in our history. These immigrants have picked our fruit, cleaned our homes, cut our grass, worked in our factories, and washed our cars. But they have also crowded into our hospital emergency rooms, schools, and government-subsidized aid programs, sparking a fierce debate about their contributions to our society and the costs they impose on it.

Advocates of open immigration argue that welcoming the Librado Velasquezes of the world is essential for our American economy: our businesses need workers like him, because we have a shortage of people willing to do low-wage work. Moreover, the free movement of labor in a global economy pays off for the United States, because immigrants bring skills and capital that expand our economy and offset immigration’s costs. Like tax cuts, supporters argue, immigration pays for itself.

But the tale of Librado Velasquez helps show why supporters are wrong about today’s immigration, as many Americans sense and so much research has demonstrated. America does not have a vast labor shortage that requires waves of low-wage immigrants to alleviate; in fact, unemployment among unskilled workers is high—about 30 percent. Moreover, many of the unskilled, uneducated workers now journeying here labor, like Velasquez, in shrinking industries, where they force out native workers, and many others work in industries where the availability of cheap workers has led businesses to suspend investment in new technologies that would make them less labor-intensive.

Yet while these workers add little to our economy, they come at great cost, because they are not economic abstractions but human beings, with their own culture and ideas—often at odds with our own. Increasing numbers of them arrive with little education and none of the skills necessary to succeed in a modern economy. Many may wind up stuck on our lowest economic rungs, where they will rely on something that immigrants of other generations didn’t have: a vast U.S. welfare and social-services apparatus that has enormously amplified the cost of immigration. Just as welfare reform and other policies are helping to shrink America’s underclass by weaning people off such social programs, we are importing a new, foreign-born underclass. As famed free-market economist Milton Friedman puts it: “It’s just obvious that you can’t have free immigration and a welfare state.”

www.city-journal.org...

Originally posted by KingAtlas
i like the topic, but fundamentally the largest problem witht the solution that is proposed is that, If you make a certain group carry cards to identify themselves in the country as citizens then to make it constitutionally acceptable, then all People will have to carry cards.

The real problem is that if your born one mile to the left or right of an imaginary line detirmines the futur options you will have in life.

I think what they should ask is if the community will be able to support the new costs assosiated with this endeavor.

Everyone in the US with a bank account, or a car, etc.. has a valid state ID. It's already implemented. Just create a federal requirement for the existing ID process for the states.

Originally posted by poet1b
If Mexicans were so good for the economy, then why is Mexico still a third world nation. You are completely clueless.

Is that a serious statement?

Originally posted by poet1b
I am not attacking Mexicans, I am pointing out how illegal immigration is bad for the U.S. economy, and if you had a clue you would know that Mexicans are not the only illegals.

Illegal immigrants are good for the economy.

This is basic economics and not debatable.

Minimum wage is a distortion of the market and BAD for the economy.

reply to post by poet1b


I'm sorry, I should have clarified - subprime mortgage derivatives, etc.

But again - please provide your sources for the information you are posting here. Until then your argument is completely unfounded and does not make sense with known facts.

The flood of immigration ended the rise in wages, so all those mortgage payments could not be met, and the whole house of cards collapsed.

In addition, it was the flood of immigrants who drove up the demand for housing.

Mortgages defaulted because 80+% of the mortgages were flexible rate loans, and when interest rates started to rapidly rise (in part when housing demands when down, mortgage payments increased and could not be met.

There was no "end of wage increases" because of illegal immigrants, thus causing homeowners to default on loans. There was no "drive up" for housing because of some huge influx of illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants can't get mortgages, anyway, poet1b. I appreciate your attempts to explain all these complicated economics to me, but with all due respect, I'll stick to the truth of the matter.

That said, I'm not going to continue arguing this issue with you as it's not productive.

And in case you weren't aware, poet1b, my position on the original issue - the illegal immigration problem - is: 1) hatred is unfounded and nonproductive, 2) deporting all illegals will also be nonproductive until the companies hiring illegals are held accountable for THEIR illegal activity as well, and 3) we address how NAFTA and other policies are affected Mexico.

[edit on 8/5/10 by sjrily]