The Reason Conspiracy Theorists Can Never "Win" Against the Elite

There is actually a much more fundamental reason than the ones which have been gven so far.

From the postings on ATS, it is evident that a conspiracy theorist regards anyone who has power as a member of "the elite".
This means that it is impossible, simply by definition, that the elite can be removed from power. The elite will ALWAYS be in power, in the eyes of conspiracy theorists.
So the assumptions of conspiracy theorists make it impossible for them to believe that they have "won" against the elite. If they cannot believe they have won, they cannot win.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


Woa. I just had an idea. Bare with me for a sec.

What if we had someone running for president and his whole deal was that he didn't tell you what his political goals were, instead he informed us that YOU, his voters, would decide the issues before the election process?

You could have a website that people could log onto and put up ideas for goals to be addressed. You could then have people vote for the best goals.

You could network on the streets to get the word out. Little business cards with brilliant logo's, trendy & powerful slogans, and of course the web addy.

It would empower the people! Rid us of our apathy !!

Thoughts?

[edit on 25-6-2010 by unityemissions]

"You could have a website that people could log onto and put up ideas for goals to be addressed. You could then have people vote for the best goals."

It would not work because 95% of the people would vote for what they want, instead of what they need. These are the same idiots who waste their lives watching mindless TV shows and prefer to have others think for them.

The elite know what they're doing. If you give morons too much power, in the end, they'll end up screwing it up for everybody. In fact, the same applies for intelligent people. Looks like we're doomed one way or the other. Oh well...

reply to post by SphinxMontreal


My naivety got the best of me . .

Oh well.

the question was raised in the OP:

"what is the point?"

for many of us i don't think there was a conscious decision to one day wake up a "conspiracy theorist". for most of us is was probably a slow progression toward what seemed to be the natural, dare i say logical path according to individual experience. would there then even be a point? maybe. words have been known to write as much history as war.

for some of us this isn't so much about theory, but more about the sum of life experience. life experience has taught many of us that the police, courts, and government are not be trusted, thereby eliminating most political ideologies from prudence. there is no taking back what is seen after peeking behind the curtain. some creep up quietly and sneak-a-peek, some have the curtains drawn back for them, wide and dramatically.

isn't it the same as asking the age old question: "why are we here, what is the meaning of life?"

it's either a hobby, or your world view. as a theory, what we "believe" is minimized, placed in the realm of triviality. as an eye-witness, there is no theory behind political corruption. yes, it exists. isn't it important then? yes, BUT, many more aspects of life seem to take precedent. the bills must be paid, the kids must be fed, gotta change the oil, gotta fix the roof... all of that takes a back seat to what is shaking on capital hill. most people do not see how it all relates. they do not see that what is going down on capital hill (and back-room meetings) has every bit to do with how the bills get paid.

in general, people seem to know, or assume that all politicians are crooks and liars. still, come election time they pretend that voting matters and theirs is the man for the job. they have come to accept that it is in the job description. to be a good politico you better be a great liar. everyone seems to agree and consent. that is why it is allowed to stand. we tolerate it. it is accepted as "just the way it is".

a good friend asked the same question: "why don't we get involved in politics?"

pushing for a fair handed agenda would be like asking for a magic bullet in the tie knot, or to be rubbed out by some "lone nut" gunman. thats why we don't do politics. we know that crusaders are made into martyrs, at best. no one really wants to be made an example of what happens to those that buck the system. i wouldn't say that fear is to blame as much as an overwhelming sense of insurmountability.

besides, (imo) it takes a special kind of scum to even want to get involved with politics. for reasons stated above. at some point you WILL be made to compromise your principles, especially if they are firmly grounded in "doing the right thing". my friend went on to get involved with politics, starting out as a senatorial campaign worker. on more than one occasion he turned up at my house in the middle of the night in fear for his life because he somehow, in passing, managed to slight someone with powerful friends and vast resources. F that scene.

even MLK was allowed to carry on for a good bit. it was okay for him to decry social injustice for minorities, and to preach racial harmony, but as soon as he spoke of the money changers in the temple... blam, we get a new holiday.

which brings me to another point. at some point ALL policy flies out the window, and that is the point at which economics enter the picture. there is no law of the land when the highest law in the land is a sell out. even the lowest levels of the justice system are motivated purely by their potential as a resource for revenue.

the OP is right. the elite have their unifying god. it serves them as well as they serve it.

even victory is shallow. a scandal is uncovered, it makes headlines, yet no heads roll.

great thread/posts SKL.

1) The reason conspiracy theorists will never "win" is because 99% of them are nuts, plain and simple. They belong in a loony bin. They spend most of their waking hours trying to convince others that a select few are trying to take over the world, or that the world is coming to an end not only in their lifetime, but within the next few years. Of course this has been going on forever and the world still hasn't come to an end. Even if aliens did exist they are not coming to save you, because frankly you are not that important, nor worth saving.

2) They come up with tens of thousands of non-linear theories and make up evidence to suit their beliefs. Even when all evidence points to the contrary and you show them the flaw in their theory, they will try to convince you that they are correct by coming up with another nutty idea in an attempt to back up their theory.

3) They use the term "The Powers That Be" to refer to so-called masters of the universe, which of course is crazy. These people can never be named because they don't exist. Even the people at the top of the food chain that can be named are not all interconnected in some secret web of organized deceipt.

reply to post by unityemissions


I like that idea, but it is very faulty in the since that he can still be bought out. You would have to find a way to fool proof it so that the majorities wishes always were put first.

1 - conspiracy theories are just theories, if we had proofs it wouldnt be a theory

2 - its impossible to change a system by yourself

3 - most people in the world are clueless

4 - most people in the world dont have access to the internet

5 - most people in the world dont know how to use the internet

6 - most people in the world live in a box (mind)

7 - most people in the world take instructions from a book (religion)

8 - most people in the world never used their brain to discuss

9 - a lot of people are born with some genes that make you a psychopath

10 - most psychopaths look for decision making positions (CEOs, gov ...)

11 - people are just %$2, just look at journalists selling their soul, most horrible class

12 - DNA, recombination ...

The reality is that most theories are just theories, its hard to find real evidence, and for the rest, the real things happening around us, most people dont have the capacity to understand these things and you need them if you want to change the system

Just to add, we live in a world run by psychopaths, thats the only explanation to why nobody gives a $%# about the planet, about other people, their own future ... they just care about control, since they dont feel anything

People here want to believe that there are secret organizations controlling our world, or aliens doing it, the truth is that DNA recombination makes some bad people, and there is nothing we can do to stop it, well, we could do something if the people understood, but most people cant think, so its impossible right now

Our only hope is the development of the internet ...

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


Good gracious that's alot of information to sort through!
Good job though, with all the well presented subjects.


Just to sum up everything for you...
Here's my idea:
Kill Cable. Kill the television.
Get to a news station legally and broadcast on a nationwide network about everything related to what's going on behind the curtain. Seem the only way people will listen is if it comes from the mouth of the beast (television).
This is a possible scenario. It can happen.

BUT:

So many people are still glued to the television that they think normalcy consists of what new talent Amerika has, or what new Idol to worship. Purely pathetic and ignorant. Then there is sports.
Don't get me started on music and entertainment.
Just all distractions from what's really taking place.

So. We could 'win' if the people collectively gathered in mass numbers (millions) and took over what has been robbed from them.
Their minds.

Let's face it though. People don't want to fight.
Complacency rules. Obesity is killing our mindset.
We need numbers and a month long nationwide strike.
But then we get into FEAR and why people won't do anything.
They are scared.
Scared to lose everything they've worked so hard for.

Great job!

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


There's two trends here - the awakening of individuals, and the cohesion of awakened individuals.

I think you're being overly pessimistic, and missing an important trend. Yes, it probably looks bad when you look around. But you have to look at the bigger picture - where was this "conspiracy theorist" movement 5 years ago? Small. How about before 9/11? Almost nonexistent. There were isolated pockets of people each with their own specific subject matters.

But afterwards, especially in the last 4 or 5 years, combined with the advancement of the internet, the number of people looking into CTs has exploded from thousands to tens of millions. it's still growing. (I'd love to see an evaluation of ATS membership over the last 8 or so years, as a rough indication of interest in conspiracy theories)

We don't need to agree on everything. We don't need a common ideology, we are born free and should remain so. All we need, is to know that THEIR ideology is wrong and inhumane and unsustainable.

As long as each individual recognizes that he/she is a sovereign entity with inalienable rights, and as long as this trend of political awakening continues, I think we'll be okay. But these things take time. The focus should be on making more people aware of the massive corruption around us - not on making sure that those of us already aware follow the same game plan. I firmly believe that.

The rest of your thread is great, and I think it's a wonderful blueprint for how to get activists more organized.

When I was much younger, and these "theories" were bandied about, their was hardly anyone willing to entertain or otherwise considered these as facts. Well to quote Dylan, "these times they are a changin". People these days are better listeners. They seemed to have weighed the various theories and found some to be, indeed, fact.

Kennedy Assasinations tilted them toward the simple fact that there is some kind of secret gov out there who are doing things in our name, here in the US and probably worldwide, that are not remotely the peoples will. Some things, like segregation and all its sins, MUST be challenged and changed by authority figures of a strong gov.

But to sit back and allow criminals to steal money then start wars as we have witnessed lately, has not been a thing people will tolerate, as long as there is proof of some kind. There is proof of Wall St crimes right down to who made the call for "derivatives:. They keep a paper trail, by our laws. Now people all over this great land think we have perpetrators of crimes walking the halls of the White House. IF you consider that Goldman Sachs connection to the fiasco as fact, it has to be true! At this point it certainly appears that way more people feel this way than don't.

We believe they have commited major crimes and have yet to be arrested. That criminal behavior, if not acted upon by criminal investigative branches of our government, will force the people to conclude it IS ALL OVER anyway. Unlawful behavior will not be tolerated by the masses once they are convinced it is a fact. How many people do we all know who think a crime was committed by the financial institutions and that really 'too big to fail' means Wall St. took us over without firing a shot?

Perhaps the cards are stacked but that just motivates the masses when they understand that has happened. Sure, some will throw in the towel and succumb to being mushrooms. Others will do whatever is necessary as they come to each fork in the road. I choose to think people are more like Braveheart than Woody Allen.

No Spartan King! We will not surrender to criminals, ever! Their motives are never ours and death follows them.

I believe I have made the same observation you are pointing out, OP, and I actually agree with you in large part. However a thought always occurs to me when pondering this particular problem, which is this:

What would happen if the so-called conspiracy theory community as a whole did unite? What would happen if it established a very simple, very inclusive, but ultimately unified ideology of its own? What would happen if it banded together and worked collectively toward a common goal? What would happen if it brought to bear the full force of its collective population by focusing the energies and political impact of that population on a singular, shared purpose? In short, what would happen if we all agreed, came together, and acted in an effort to bring about real change?

If we do honestly and seriously entertain the existence of an elite which controls and manipulates society, should we not suspect that they have planned for this? The divide and conquer stratagem doesn't end with us in my opinion. If we were unified, would they not seek to divide and conquer by another means - by casting us as the bogeymen? As you stated, we are the fringe at the edge of society. We are, in one sociological sense, an underclass. I don't like that, but I must acknowledge it. And whenever an underclass gains power and unity, it tends to be viewed by the majority as a radical threat. Threats are frightening, and fear is an excellent tool conducive to division (the first component of divide and conquer.)

And who would "lead" this movement? History has demonstrated - to my satisfaction at least - that those ambitious and driven enough to lead can be corrupted. Not that they will or must necessarily be, but that they can be. It is speculated that the conspiracy community is already infiltrated by disinformation disseminators. Is it unreasonable to at least consider that they might infiltrate such a movement, as they have (and are documented to have) infiltrated all radical movements which the establishment viewed as a threat in the past?

And finally, there is the very diversity of opinion and position you alluded to in the first instance. What happens to those who do not agree with whatever overarching ideology is agreed upon by the majority of the greater conspiracy theorist society? Do they become the fringes of the fringe? Disenfranchised among their own? Ostracized? Viewed or painted as the adversary? And would that too not serve as an excellent opportunity to divide us? In a community that is already a minority in a larger society, is not diversity and inclusion tantamount to strength in numbers, even if we disagree? Would we not be worse off divided and scattered in an effort to unite some of us?

If we accept that all such scenarios can be manipulated, then we cannot in my opinion dismiss the possibility of such a unity of purpose being similarly manipulated, for all of the reasons above.

This does not mean that there aren't ways we can have a substantive impact, however. Unified will can be brought to bear even in the absence of unity of purpose, ideology, or doctrine. I believe that knowledge truly is power, and that the more enlightened and educated people are, the more informed and reasoned their decisions tend to be. That may be naive on my part, but if I cannot believe even that, then what hope is there? For that reason I believe we can still have an impact, but that it requires more proactive whistle-blowing when we do uncover something that is previously unknown.

When something is discovered which can be thoroughly documented, proved, and supported, I do feel that we have a responsibility to do everything we can to ensure it is brought out of the shadows of the fringe, and into mainstream consciousness. Then our society as a whole is better informed, and can make better decisions.

In that sense, it is possible that the only real "victory" we might ever achieve, is the gradual exposure and acknowledgment of whatever the actual reality of our existence is - whatever that ends up being - so that one day, a majority of humanity aware of that truth can act on it in an informed way and, seeing that truth, should it include the existence of an elite "over-order" as we theorize, refuse to subsist under its influence any longer.

In short, I strongly suspect (though I cannot assert that I know of course) that a natural, virtually evolutionary process must lead to the change we seek, through reasoned learning and communication, and that if we - in essence - fight fire with fire; that is to say, use their own tools (politics, finance, or even more so, the force of arms) against them, we will only be infiltrated, undermined, vilified, and scapegoated.

As always, I could be completely and utterly wrong. These are only my personal feelings and opinions. This thread raises an important idea, and one which I largely agree with in its implications and central points.

I disagree to this post simply because I know that the elite has now spent trillions of dollars to hide the truth from us.

Everytime we get the truth out we WIN.

Everytime!

We also waste their money each time, and while at the same time making them look foolish by stating the truth that then shows how out of grasp with reality they are.

What do you think this people do when their alone. They regret themsleves. They are constanly guarding their backs as the people they do business with are just as low as they are. These people are in a constant state of fear. Which is eactly why they wish to case a ever increasing state of fear upon us.


So thanks for all of your work in conspiracies. It does make a different.

Only the TRUTH can set you free.

A great thread, some intersting and well thought out responses. I have to intend to agree with OP on the terms that we use now. However, if something small changes this can change the rules somewhat.

In regards to what unites us, I agree that it would be difficult to physically unite. But a thread springs to mind where in was explained how people with a shared ideology can work on their own and still come to the common goal.

Think about it, Spartan touched on it when he said that we need to individually act to change things, doing the right thing even when there is no one to witness the act or no way of recognition. This is how we will beat them. Joe public getting onwith thier lives but doing acts toward a common goal or idealology.

If no one knows what your doing you can't be stopped. On the way to work, drop of that letter to the government official, give the guy on the street some change, join a movement, hell just say hello to a stranger. Then you will have contributed even a little, after a while who knows what you can achieve.

Try it, if we all did we would be on the right track!

[edit on 25/6/2010 by LestatG]

When did anyone get a monopoly on truth?

Truth is a subjective idea. It depends on your point of view. Now, I'm going to get a lot of people screaming at me for saying that. I get called a pinko-commie liberal socialist progressive asshat all the time around here, but what I said was correct. What the truth is depends on who you are talking to.

This isn't some problem, this is reality. The problem is that many people are so egotistically attached to their world view. They just have to be right. They have everything emotionally invested in being right. No one cares if it works. They just want to win.

And what is a win? Is it just getting the "Elite" out? Of course not, you leave a vacuum that is going to be filled by something. It's likely over time it will become just as bad as what it replaced. Is a win just getting the "truth" out? You have to remember truth is dependent on one's point of view again. Not everyone is going to buy your line or agree with everything you say. Is a win improving the general well-being of the population? Well, that's gonna be subjective.

Then you have the problem of the general atmosphere around here. People can't accept that other believe something different. They feel personally insulted when others don't share their point of view. This isn't some kind of sports game yet it's reduced to that everyday. Of course no one takes you guys seriously. Who would want to speak to someone who insults them constantly by calling them a "sheep" or "ignorant"? Who would want anything to do with someone who seems to think ill of those who don't share their beliefs? I sure as hell wouldn't want to talk to you.

The problem is that most people in the West are 'OK' and are the decendants of parents that lived 'OK' lives as well. The masses aren't going to riot or spend all their time protesting unless the MSM that they have such blind faith in, effectively tells them to. No serious movement can take place with only a tiny percentage of people ('conspiracy nuts') taking part. We'd be terrorists, and terrorists that spent most of their time still playing the pride-fuelled games of one-upmanship that is the very basis of the ruling elites 'evil'. This system is something that we're all part of and all trapped by.

As far as I can see, nothing can save us now except for a miracle.













...but guess what you might just get.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


In my humble experience I can say that what you are saying is very true. I would just like to raise an idea.

Could it be that our different points of view and varied believe is what unites us as a community here at ATS. I would like to use an example.

A writer in South Africa, Koos Kombuis, wrote in a local newspaper here, what is a South African? He mentioned that if you think of a Aussie, an American or a Pommie for example you have a certain stereotype image in your mind of what they would look like.

Then he went on to ask the question 'What image do you see if you think of what a South African looks like?' and I couldn't. We are too diverse, colours creeds and religions. His final conclusion was that maybe it is our diversity and differences, yet our ability to live together that make us so unique and thus a South African.

Sorry for the long story but the point I would like to make, as I stated at the top of my post is that maybe it is this diversity that we can apply to connect us as people.

I believe everyone, or at least the majority of people frequenting this site has the same dream in their hearts. We must look at what makes us similar instead of what makes us different.

They know that we are all interconnected and there is no separation. In the Secret Covenant this is explained. The main message is individuality and not collective. We cant be collective because that would be socialist and communism. Collective is a bad thing and is along the lines of One World Order evil ideology .

They allow us to speak of many of these true things. From Lizard people to JFK. They know we will never come into agreement across the board and will continue to fight amongst each other. So what if there are lizard people and the US orchestrated 911. We get caught up into details and like you said,,,never come into agreement

Some of the Secret Societies/Orders/Corps in-fight but always come to a common ideology where they all come into agreement. We cannot seem to do this as conspiracy theory researchers

[edit on 25-6-2010 by superluminal11]

www.armageddonconspiracy.co.uk...

Maybe we can be united by a single religion. A new religion based on our inner light, not our external devotions to false pretexts...
Take it with a grain of salt, but this may resonate strongly with the conspiracy theorist. It will require some deep and profound exploration of ones true inner beliefs.

I hope this is the thread I have been waiting for. Maybe some of you have heard of this website. Maybe some of you will like it. A LOT.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fe62feb07286.jpg[/atsimg]



(source: hannakin.deviantart.com...)

Edit: finally found the Laozi government model (took a while):

GOVERNMENT
Therefore the Sage [Laozi], when he governs, empties their minds and fills their bellies, weakens their inclinations and strengthens their bones. His constant object is to keep the people without knowledge and without desire, or to prevent those who have knowledge from daring to act. He practises inaction, and nothing remains ungoverned.

(source: The Sayings of Lao-Tzu, Lionel Giles translation [1905]; www.sacred-texts.com...)

That is about 2600 years old.

Has much changed today?

Oh and S&F, I always love your posts!

[edit on 25/6/2010 by SassyCat]